Bonding bonding two days in...things don't look good?

It looks like you have two dominant boars, who are both determined that they will be the boss.

Nothing in the video is particularly worrisome aside from the fact that the loser of the dominance battles is not giving way and acting submissive. The dark one is clearly winning all of the challenges for dominance (nose off etc.), but still the orange one is continuing to challenge him (as seen by his body language, such as standing off and yawning even after losing a nose off). From what you have described and what I can see in the video it seems like Xavier (am I correct that Xavier is the darker boar?) is both more dominant and stronger than Magneto (the orange boar?) and is winning all social cues that he is the boss, but Magneto is still challenging him, hence the scuffles you are experiencing.

I can't say for certain that more space would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. If they have more space to get away from each other it might help calm the situation a bit.

I suppose that explains why sometimes Magneto will be relaxing in a corner and then Xavier will just decide to chase him off of it and plop down himself. But the weird thing is, he'll do it. Then he'll be like, whatever and all is well again. When Magneto "submits" (it looks like he subtly bows his head a bit) things return to normal quickly. It's when Magneto resists that things escalate.

Also, Magneto is about 2 years old, according to his previous owner. I have no idea how old Xavier is, but he's grown a bit since adoption, so I assume he's still young. Maybe he's going through adolescence? Getting a 2x6 cage is going to be incredibly difficult to pull off. I'm able to easily add a 1x2 L to the existing cage (it'll cut into the middle of my room), but even a 4x3 cage is going be incredibly difficult.

I'm on the verge of cancelling my cousin's baby shower because of this and I'm ready to throw in the towel. Given the situation (that I'll need to increase space by 50% which I can't):

1. Should I give up Xavier for adoption? Boston ARL is not too far from me and they seem to be pretty good at taking care of small animals.
2. If so, should I abort this immediately and move Xavier back into his own cage?
3. What should I do about Magneto? I still want to get him a companion, but unless I spring for a larger cage, it seems like another boar is either out of the question or very risky (maybe the next boar I get won't be as dominant?). Is a spayed female an option?

Are there any last-ditch efforts I can employ to make these two just get along?

(As I typed this Magneto just got chased off another corner)

Soecara said:

It looks like you have two dominant boars, who are both determined that they will be the boss.

Nothing in the video is particularly worrisome aside from the fact that the loser of the dominance battles is not giving way and acting submissive. The dark one is clearly winning all of the challenges for dominance (nose off etc.), but still the orange one is continuing to challenge him (as seen by his body language, such as standing off and yawning even after losing a nose off). From what you have described and what I can see in the video it seems like Xavier (am I correct that Xavier is the darker boar?) is both more dominant and stronger than Magneto (the orange boar?) and is winning all social cues that he is the boss, but Magneto is still challenging him, hence the scuffles you are experiencing.

I can't say for certain that more space would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. If they have more space to get away from each other it might help calm the situation a bit.

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You're right about which one is which. And I also got that feeling as well (that one is clearly dominant, but the other is refusing to back down). Is this something that'll go away? In other words, will Magneto eventually realize he can't win?

edit: Also, if both are determined to be top pig, I'm not sure I understand how more space will make it better.

In my experience this turns out either one of two ways. They will either continue to scuffle until Magneto finally gives up, which may be after Xavier exits puberty, as he is still growing he is certainly still in puberty, or it could end in a horrible fight that warrants them being permanently separated.

From my experience with boar pairs it often becomes quite apparent who can and can't get along quite early, if it is going to escalate into a horrible fight that *typically* happens either when they are first introduced or within the first 2-3 days following introductions. I have had one instance in which that wasn't the case, but that involved a boar who was roughly three weeks old when introduced who caused big issues with his cagemate once he hit 6 months, in that particular case I did have to separate (it was the older boar who was worse injured, along with my hand, but all three of us healed well) and both boars were successfully re-paired with their now permanent boar cagemates.

I would give them more time before deciding what to do, in the video it is at least a promising sign that Magneto does not try for another nose-off or approach Xavier after the chase. Some of my now successful boar pairs had quite a rocky period for the first three weeks before things mostly settled down, aside from the occasional minor scuffle.

If both are determined to be top pig more space might not help, but it does give Magneto more space to maneuver away if they end up in a chase again, I'm sure you have noticed it gets worse once Magneto is cornered during a chase (this is where the wider cages sometimes helping comes into play).

Also if a 3x4 is going to be too difficult to manage in your space would a 2.5x4 be any more manageable? Even just an extra half a grid width could possibly help.

Soecara said:

In my experience this turns out either one of two ways. They will either continue to scuffle until Magneto finally gives up, which may be after Xavier exits puberty, as he is still growing he is certainly still in puberty, or it could end in a horrible fight that warrants them being permanently separated.

From my experience with boar pairs it often becomes quite apparent who can and can't get along quite early, if it is going to escalate into a horrible fight that *typically* happens either when they are first introduced or within the first 2-3 days following introductions. I have had one instance in which that wasn't the case, but that involved a boar who was roughly three weeks old when introduced who caused big issues with his cagemate once he hit 6 months, in that particular case I did have to separate (it was the older boar who was worse injured, along with my hand, but all three of us healed well) and both boars were successfully re-paired with their now permanent boar cagemates.

I would give them more time before deciding what to do, in the video it is at least a promising sign that Magneto does not try for another nose-off or approach Xavier after the chase. Some of my now successful boar pairs had quite a rocky period for the first three weeks before things mostly settled down, aside from the occasional minor scuffle.

If both are determined to be top pig more space might not help, but it does give Magneto more space to maneuver away if they end up in a chase again, I'm sure you have noticed it gets worse once Magneto is cornered during a chase (this is where the wider cages sometimes helping comes into play).

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I wish I saw this a bit earlier. I went to bed (it's 2am here) and it's almost like as soon as I turned off the lights, they started fighting started again. I did what I did the other nights; just ignore them and tell myself that they'd sort it out and I should leave them be unless I heard one obviously in pain. But for over half an hour I heard nothing but ruffling hay, bodies slamming into coroplast walls, chattering, snorting, and the occasional whimpering. There was an occasional pause here and there but after a minute or two it'd start up again. I spent the evening convincing myself they were making progress because there was only one instance where Magneto get scratched on the mouth that was bad (he didn't even whimper). Otherwise they only squared off every twenty minutes or so, and it was only very briefly. It may have been because every time they looked to start something, I'd gaze over them with a T-shirt ready, who knows. If they didn't spill each other's blood or otherwise injure each other on 3-4 separate occasions the story might be ending differently.

Maybe it was the fact that I haven't gotten any sleep since Saturday because their fighting would keep me awake at night and wake me up in the morning and now I'm just cranky. But I grabbed Xavier and put him in the KayTee cage (along with bedding, hay, bowl, water, etc.). Tomorrow I'll call up Boston ARL and assuming no epiphanies happen, I'll be giving up Xavier the same day or on Friday. I'll clear my head a bit, let Magneto de-stress for a little while, then figure out where to go from there. Again, I still want a friend to him but maybe this was just a bad personality fit. Things I learned:

1. Bigger cage seems to be a good way to resolve issues. I'll have a few extra grids and coroplast on hand just in case, though again, expanding the cage is going to be difficult. My roommate joked that I should just take one of the living rooms (we don't really use them at all) and let them loose.
2. I failed when adopting both in asking the owner about their temperaments. Magneto's owner might've provided insight into how he behaved around his old buddy. Even if the shelter couldn't tell me anything, I think I should've watched Xavier a bit more to see how he was. He was the "cutest" one there and that was my main criteria. Though I don't know if I could've foreseen Magneto's stubbornness (I guess if both are dominant, it'd be a bad idea to put them together).
3. I should've came to these forums to get some advice first.

I placed the two cages next to each other so they could see each other a bit more. They were squeaking at each other; there was some rumblestrutting but no chattering. They climbed up on the bars and sniffed each other a bit. Then Magneto walked away into the pigloo that I put back for him and Xavier started chowing down on his hay. Then he curled up in a ball (which I've never seen him do as he usually plops straight down). Does he know the jig is up?

Either way, thanks for all of your help on this. I know I made some boneheaded mistakes but I learned a lot about guinea pig behavior through this experience. Once I clear my head and am ready for another companion search, I'll start a new thread.

Hopefully I'm doing the right thing here. I guess one last question is: am I being too hasty in giving up? I suppose if I use the living room I can keep these two separated (Xavier would move into the Midwest habitat, of course) and next to each other for a few months until Xavier passes puberty; this will give me enough time to regroup and get some supplies to expand the cage. but I don't know if that's just the sentimentality in me speaking now.

Soecara said:

Also if a 3x4 is going to be too difficult to manage in your space would a 2.5x4 be any more manageable? Even just an extra half a grid width could possibly help.

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A 2.5x4 would work...

Only you can truly tell what is right in this situation, maybe you gave up to hastily or maybe you prevented major injuries occurring. Maybe they could possibly get along in the future, or maybe that just won't happen due to clashing personalities. Whether to put Xavier up for adoption or try again in a few months is something only you can decide, you have to think of what is best for both yourself and the guinea pigs in this situation.

I would suggest for you to take some time, and get some sleep, to properly think through the situation. Now that they are in separate cages there is no hurry to rush to a choice one way or the other so you can take a few days to think it over. No matter what you decide you have learnt a lot from this situation which will help you in the future.

So I have both cages set up next to each other at moment and I woke up earlier and while getting ready I was watching the two. They seemed a lot more amicable with the border separating them. Magneto would come to the edge, Xavier would drop what he's doing, and they'd touch noses through the bar and squeak a lot (the happy, social kind). A bit of rumblestrutting from both of them, but otherwise it looked very cordial. I remember kind of asking them, "why can't you two be like this when you're both in the same cage?"

And you're right, I'm fortunate to have enough equipment to house them separately under adequate conditions. I'll give the shelter a call and see if they have an opinion (I've heard good reviews about Boston ARL and that they're very helpful). I don't want to rush into any decision, so I think a short-term solution is that I'll place Xavier in the larger Midwest cage, then move them both out into the living room and keep them side-by-side for a little while. Space won't be an issue in the living room; the only issues will be cleanup and bedding, but those are small expenses.

Should I also give them separate floor time? All the literature says that putting them together then pulling them apart again is a bad idea, so I'm going to assume that they shouldn't occupy the same space without a barrier in the way.

onefutui2e said:

So I have both cages set up next to each other at moment and I woke up earlier and while getting ready I was watching the two. They seemed a lot more amicable with the border separating them. Magneto would come to the edge, Xavier would drop what he's doing, and they'd touch noses through the bar and squeak a lot (the happy, social kind). A bit of rumblestrutting from both of them, but otherwise it looked very cordial. I remember kind of asking them, "why can't you two be like this when you're both in the same cage?"

And you're right, I'm fortunate to have enough equipment to house them separately under adequate conditions. I'll give the shelter a call and see if they have an opinion (I've heard good reviews about Boston ARL and that they're very helpful). I don't want to rush into any decision, so I think a short-term solution is that I'll place Xavier in the larger Midwest cage, then move them both out into the living room and keep them side-by-side for a little while. Space won't be an issue in the living room; the only issues will be cleanup and bedding, but those are small expenses.

Should I also give them separate floor time? All the literature says that putting them together then pulling them apart again is a bad idea, so I'm going to assume that they shouldn't occupy the same space without a barrier in the way.

Click to expand...

My boys are pretty happy to be neighbors instead of room mates. I had a similar problem of one obviously dominant boar and the other unwilling to back down. I've tried introducing them twice, both times my smaller guy Galactus got injured after about two weeks of living together; both times when I was out of the house. Both of my boys are in puberty though (they were about 3 months old when we got them, and they're about a year old now.)

Personally, my boyfriend and I were very attached to both of them, so giving one up wasn't an option. They were already in a 2x6, so we put in a divider.

They both hang out next to each other, steal hay from each other through the bars, and rumble and talk to each other through the bars. The only thing I don't like is the bar chewing. Cosmo seems to really want to get to Galactus's side of the cage.

Floor time and lap time should be separate. There's no reason to stress them with introductions if they're not going to live together.

Best of luck to you. We haven't decided if we want to try introductions again after puberty. Our next plan is to someday expand to a 3x6 so they can each have 3x3 of running space, but our bedroom is completely maxed out for space right now.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'd say I'm about 50/50 on whether or not I want to keep Xavier. He's not as "cute" as Magneto, but he's grown on me in his own way due to his rambunctious behavior (maybe it's his youth). Since he was separated, he's been more vocal and seeing that this morning made me have second thoughts about turning him in. They've both been more vocal (in the happy way) with each other.

The issue with this is what happens if my living situation changes. I live/work in the Boston area but I occasionally spend some time in NYC. It's usually no more than a week a quarter, but I plan to spend a month this coming summer there and over time I'll be spending more and more. I stay home when I'm down there and my mom will absolutely flip out if she sees that I have two cages the size of baby cribs taking up that much space on the living room floor. She barely tolerates them as-is. So it was a bit imperative that the two get along well enough by then...

My girlfriend (who still lives in NYC) said that when I need to spend a week or more back home, she'll watch Xavier for me so I don't have to bring them both home. So that's an idea.

I have them set up in my living room. It's like night and day with them separated by kept as neighbors. Magneto seems back to his old self (though he never really changed, he was just constantly being bothered). Xavier seems to be enjoying his new digs quite a bit. He spent a solid few minutes popcorning, which I've never seen him do. I managed to catch a little bit of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIITE2Yk7MA

I called the shelter today and they said they had two guinea pigs 6 months and 12 months old as singles. They didn't know what kind of temperament they had and given their age I erred on the side of caution. When I asked if a spayed female would work, she said it could, but they don't have any available at the moment. Their intake told me that I could surrender anytime; just call ahead and set up an appointment so they can prepare accommodations. But I think I'll keep these two like this for a little while until I figure out what to do.

I definitely think you did the right thing separating them. I wouldn't try them together again. It's great if you can keep them both separately. I'm glad to hear they are acting happier!