Veg*n This is probably going to be the dumbest question ever. I apologize in advance.

[coconutty78]

Definitely you!

I highly highly highly recommend this book to anyone and everyone:
(broken link removed)

Guess who just put a hold on it at their local library??? Yup this girl lol. Thanks for the recommendation. I look forward to sharing my thoughts with you once i've read it. Cheers

 

[MrWhistles]

I respect your wishes to consider and become a vegetarian. Why do you want to make this change?

 

[Skippie]

I say this with all respect, but I don't think anyone who eats meat (even if locally sourced and humanely raised) should describe themselves as a vegetarian. First, if you eat meat, you aren't a vegetarian. Second, if you say you are, and then someone sees you eating meat, you look worse than if you tried to explain your position about the humane treatment of animals -- it would appear deceitful. Third, you'd miss an education opportunity -- to say that you eat meat, but only if the animals are raised and killed in a certain way, and this is why (then explain). People who aren't willing to commit to being a vegetarian may start thinking, hmmm, I still want to be able to eat chicken and beef, but maybe there is a better way. And if you explain it to them kindly and rationally, they should not be any more offended than if you explained that you eat kosher or halal. And if they are offended, even though you explained it kindly, then the issue is with them, not you or your choices.

I can imagine my mother, for example, understanding if someone said they can't eat the beef she served them because it didn't meet certain parameters. But if they said they were vegetarian, and she ran into them eating meat at a local farm shop, she'd be deeply offended and think there was something else going on.

@ WildCavy. This is exactly right. For those of us who have decided to become REAL vegetarians or vegans, it is both offensive, ignorant, and deceiving when someone calls themselves a vegetarian/vegan even though they do not eat (or happen to not like) chicken, pork, etc. Vegetarianism and veganism are not just diet changes, they are lifestyle changes. They are a switching to eating a diet that respects life and is healthier while also making the decision to now allow certain creatures to suffer so we can wear their coats, skins, you name it. Vegetarianism is inclusive. Either you are a vegetarian or you are not. Many people see this way of life as being put on a pedastal so they claim to be a part of it but, of course, then go and consume chicken nuggets or hot dogs. This discredits those who actually are what they say they are but also clearly identifies the deceiving person as being, well, a liar. I cannot tell you how many people I have met who tell me they are a vegetarian (right after I tell them I am) and I later see them eating lamb, shrimp, you name it. When someone claims to be something they are not, it only results in negativity. All those pesky little "side terms" for people who like to eat beef but won't eat bacon or eat chicken but not fish, really just make it all look like a big joke.
On a more positive note, here is another great site for recipes. (broken link removed)

 

[couchon]

I have to disagree about the side terms. I think they are useful. About three years ago, I gave up all meat. It was a huge lifestyle change, and I miss meat all the time. I also won't eat anything with meat stock, meat fat, cooked in lard (if I know about it) etc., so I am fairly strict, although I have consumed cheese with rennet and some things with gelatin.

I do, however, eat fish and clams/muscles/oysters (although I don't know if those are animals). It's still a huge adjustment, and I am happy there is a way I can describe myself. Also, describing myself as vegetarian just makes it easier. For example, if I am asked my food preferences for a dinner, I can't say pescatarian, because I don't eat lobster, shrimp, (things that other pescatarians do eat, since it's seafood - this a hard choice, not a preference) or anything other than fish and clams/muscles/oysters.

 

[Eimear]

I have to disagree about the side terms. I think they are useful. About three years ago, I gave up all meat. It was a huge lifestyle change, and I miss meat all the time. I also won't eat anything with meat stock, meat fat, cooked in lard (if I know about it) etc., so I am fairly strict, although I have consumed cheese with rennet and some things with gelatin.

I do, however, eat fish and clams/muscles/oysters (although I don't know if those are animals). It's still a huge adjustment, and I am happy there is a way I can describe myself. Also, describing myself as vegetarian just makes it easier. For example, if I am asked my food preferences for a dinner, I can't say pescatarian, because I don't eat lobster, shrimp, (things that other pescatarians do eat, since it's seafood - this a hard choice, not a preference) or anything other than fish and clams/muscles/oysters.

Of course fish, clams, mussels, and oysters are animals, they're just as much an animal as a guinea pig or anything else.

 

[couchon]

I absolutely agree about fish, but I am not sure i agree about clams/mussels/oysters. They don't have eyes, mouth, etc., and their life is a lot more like that of a plant.

 

[couchon]

This is from an op-ed someone wrote, and my view tends to agree. However, I am happy to hear other points of view:

"Moreover, since oysters don't have a central nervous system, they're unlikely to experience pain in a way resembling ours—unlike a pig or a herring or even a (broken link removed). They can't move, so they don't respond to injury like those animals do, either. Even monkish ethicist Peter Singer sanctioned oyster eating in Animal Liberation —the best-argued case for a vegan diet I've read—before reversing his opinion for later editions of the book. To justify the flip-flop, he wrote that "one cannot with any confidence say that these creatures do feel pain, so one can equally have little confidence in saying that they do not feel pain." This is unconvincing: We also can't state with complete confidence that plants do, or do not, feel pain—yet so far Singer hasn't made a stand against alfalfa abuse.The main argument of Animal Liberation is that discriminating against nonhuman animals is indefensible because it makes irrelevant category distinctions—pain cuts across species barriers. But to loop oysters into a dietary taboo simply because we've labeled them animals is to make just such a faulty distinction. Likewise, we shouldn't be eating more plants because they are in the plant kingdom; we should eat them because it's a sound way to feed ourselves without causing a lot of damage to the world. And oysters, as far as we can tell, belong with plants in almost every ethically relevant way"

 

[Eimear]

I absolutely agree about fish, but I am not sure i agree about clams/mussels/oysters. They don't have eyes, mouth, etc., and their life is a lot more like that of a plant.

Actually they do have very simple eyes. They are all bivalves and therefore have an inhalent siphon which is basically a mouth. And yes they most definitely are animals, thats a fact. Their lives are absolutely nothing like a plant.

Im a marine biologist so I know these things

 

[couchon]

It's great to hear new information, especially form someone who knows what they are talking about!

I thought only scallops have eyes (which is actually a part of the reason why I don't eat them), am I wrong?

Would you say that their lives are more like that of, let's say, mushrooms than animals though? I guess I am having a hard time with this - I feel strongly about not eating animals and even fish (even though I am not at a point yet where I have given fish up), but I am not sure what are the ethical problems with eating clams. They are alive, that's true, but so are plants - other than classification, what makes them less OK to eat?

 

[Eimear]

This is from an op-ed someone wrote, and my view tends to agree. However, I am happy to hear other points of view:

"Moreover, since oysters don't have a central nervous system, they're unlikely to experience pain in a way resembling ours—unlike a pig or a herring or even a (broken link removed). They can't move, so they don't respond to injury like those animals do, either. Even monkish ethicist Peter Singer sanctioned oyster eating in Animal Liberation —the best-argued case for a vegan diet I've read—before reversing his opinion for later editions of the book. To justify the flip-flop, he wrote that "one cannot with any confidence say that these creatures do feel pain, so one can equally have little confidence in saying that they do not feel pain." This is unconvincing: We also can't state with complete confidence that plants do, or do not, feel pain—yet so far Singer hasn't made a stand against alfalfa abuse.The main argument of Animal Liberation is that discriminating against nonhuman animals is indefensible because it makes irrelevant category distinctions—pain cuts across species barriers. But to loop oysters into a dietary taboo simply because we've labeled them animals is to make just such a faulty distinction. Likewise, we shouldn't be eating more plants because they are in the plant kingdom; we should eat them because it's a sound way to feed ourselves without causing a lot of damage to the world. And oysters, as far as we can tell, belong with plants in almost every ethically relevant way"

I have a few objections to this. First of all they can move, some species of bivalves can even swim such as clams, they do so by opening and closing their valves rapidly.

Second while they dont have a brain as such they do have a nervous system and they do move and respond to pain, as a marine biologist I know this first hand; I spent this summer working on my thesis on cockles and peppery furrow shells, as part of it I had to disect them while they were alive and let me tell you they can DEFINITELY feel pain, I felt awful doing it.

 

[Eimear]

It's great to hear new information, especially form someone who knows what they are talking about!

I thought only scallops have eyes (which is actually a part of the reason why I don't eat them), am I wrong?

Would you say that their lives are more like that of, let's say, mushrooms than animals though? I guess I am having a hard time with this - I feel strongly about not eating animals and even fish (even though I am not at a point yet where I have given fish up), but I am not sure what are the ethical problems with eating clams. They are alive, that's true, but so are plants - other than classification, what makes them less OK to eat?

Well Im not a vegetarian so I cant say whats ok and whats not ok to eat Bivalves arent like mushrooms either really, they are for the most part sedentary although many can move, they pretty much just sit at the bottom of the sea (although there are freshwater species too) and they filter in food particles (plankton and such) and exhale out the waste. They have simple lives but they are animals none the less. They are a very very important part of most marine food webs because a lot of animals rely on them for food.

 

[Eimear]

scallops have the most developed eyes but some other species have very simple eyes or photosensitive spots

 

[couchon]

Thank you for taking the time to expain everything to me -definitely something to think about!

I think you have an amazing job, by the way

 

[Eimear]

Thank you for taking the time to expain everything to me -definitely something to think about!

I think you have an amazing job, by the way

No problem, its a great distraction from writing my thesis thanks! technically not a job at the moment Im just a student for now

 

[DrMarie]

If you're new to it and want it to stick, I would stop thinking about it so much, and don't worry about labels. Start with what is easy. Stop buying meat, eggs, and dairy milk from the store. Maybe continue eating things that might have eggs and milk in them (i.e. premade cookies, noodles, etc). You could work your way to just buying grass fed products. Or maybe when you get down to really examining ingredient lists, first just cut out dairy. Then cut out eggs. Then cut out less obvious things like gelatin, calf rennet, animal glycern, carmine, etc. I find talking about it too much just makes it seem to exhausting. PETA has really great resources on their website. You can also request a free vegetarian starter kit. Or, if you really want a bust to help move yourself along, watch Earthlings on you tube.

**edited to add- I included a bunch of links in this post that I thought were really useful, but they were all removed when I posted. Why can't we post links to websites and articles? Is there a way around that?

 

[bpatters]

@DrMarie, we can post links. I haven't heard of anyone losing any before this. Maybe there were too many? Although I don't know of a limit.

 

[DrMarie]

Strange. I was embedding them within the text, I don't know if it makes a difference. I'll try just posting the links outright:
Eat Wild (source for grass fed meat, dairy, and eggs)
Vegetarian Living | PETA.org
Animal Ingredient List A-Z
Order Your FREE Vegetarian/Vegan Starter Kit! | PETA.org

The Earthlings you tube link just keeps showing up as a giant vid embedded in the post, which is annoying, so just search Earthlings on youtube, and it's in the top few results. Warning- it's not for the faint of heart.