Henry and Lady

[Genipher]

Why, yes. It may not be called that, but physiologically, they certainly do.

Yeah, no kidding, that's what I'm pointing out to you - they're NOT interchangeable terms.

Leaving aside your assumption that they were created at all - go ahead. Prove to me that an animal - any animal - automatically knows that having intercourse has anything to do with continuation of its species or that they have any reason to desire that result . 'Cause humans tend to have to be taught that intercourse and procreation are related, you know. Unless you think that animals are a lot more advanced than people?

Thank you for correcting me on the "mate" and "procreate" terms. I've meant "procreate" in my past posts.

And really? They're calling the human sex drive "heat"? Is it on 24/7? Or does it depend on the person?

No, I don't think animals are more advanced than people. But I think they are born knowing they need to procreate to further the species. Thus, pregnancy. I don't have the time right now, but give me a couple days to research. Maybe I can find something that doesn't relate to religion, for my argument.

 

[Paula]

And I believe that animals are just that: animals.

My mom had a dog (he was originally mine but she kept him when I moved out and married). When he got cancer at 13 years old, we were all sad. But it would have been ridiculous to pay thousands of dollars for his care. Instead, we let him go. (Mom had him euthanized).
There were times, as well, that we had his ear mites fixed, etc. etc. There are times an animal needs to go to the vet. But I wouldn't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an animal.

No one's suggesting that putting a geriatric animal through procedures that would likely only cause more pain and do little in prolonging his life or improving the quality of his life is what makes a person a responsible pet owner.

But choosing NOT to do anything when a condition is perfectly treatable, for an animal you have made yourself the "steward" for, is irresponsible, selfish, and shameful. If you aren't willing to take your animals to a vet, how can you know if what's afflicting them is treatable or something terminal?

 

[Genipher]

No one's suggesting that putting a geriatric animal through procedures that would likely only cause more pain and do little in prolonging his life or improving the quality of his life is what makes a person a responsible pet owner.

But choosing NOT to do anything when a condition is perfectly treatable, for an animal you have made yourself the "steward" for, is irresponsible, selfish, and shameful. If you aren't willing to take your animals to a vet, how can you know if what's afflicting them is treatable or something terminal?

Yes, and with the dog, we took him in when he had problems: as a pup, as well.
If Henry or Lady get sick? I guess I view them on a lower level than a dog. If the vet said, "Bring 'em in. It'll cost you $5 to see what's wrong with them." Fine and good. But if it cost $100? No. I'm sorry, I would change their diet, try to "self-diagnose", and, if it came to it, find a humane way to put them down.

 

[Genipher]

Excuse me, y'all. It's time for lunch and I've been on here longer than intended. Have a great weekend! I'll be back to defend myself against these fiery arrows when able.

 

[NicholsS10]

My mom had a dog (he was originally mine but she kept him when I moved out and married). When he got cancer at 13 years old, we were all sad. But it would have been ridiculous to pay thousands of dollars for his care. Instead, we let him go. (Mom had him euthanized)....

There are times an animal needs to go to the vet. But I wouldn't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an animal.

Not treating cancer is a personal decision, whether is be financial, the risks, or the odds of the cancer going into remission (and just so you know, when I was in high school we had a dog develop lymphoma, and yes we treated her spending thousands of dollars!), but just to let you know, euthanasia can be "expensive" as well.

2 months ago I had to put my neuter boar, Bodie, to sleep in the middle of night since he was dying of kidney stones (which I tried to treat him for, but his body began to fail on him). Just to put him to sleep cost over $130, which I was glad to pay to end his suffering.

My point is, if one of your pigs was suffering like that, would you just let him suffer? Or would you pay $130 or MORE to end his suffering in a humane way?

Oh, and just to let you know, I feel like my animals are my children. If one of them came down with cancer, I would treat it. Just like I would treat any of my future human children should they come down with cancer.

As a side note: we decided to treat our dog because she was young, only 7 years old for a breed that lives to be about 13, we had the money, and he cancer actually went into remission for a time. When it came back, and her bad days outweighed her good, we humanely ended her suffering.

 

[blackarrow]

"I've meant "procreate" in my past posts." Obviously. Again, please give the basis for your belief that somehow, animals simply know more than your kids do about the facts of life.

"And really? They're calling the human sex drive "heat"? Is it on 24/7? Or does it depend on the person?" You're not reading very carefully, are you? I specifically said it isn't ordinarilycalled that, but that humans most definitely do cycle just like any other animal. Are you seriously not aware of that? Humans are among a few other species whose females are receptive to advances during much or all of their cycle (certain varieties of dolphins and monkeys are also) but that doesn't mean the heat cycle doesn't occur.

"If Henry or Lady get sick? I guess I view them on a lower level than a dog." And your basis for ranking the importance of animals is what, exactly? That's certainly not your religion, so I'm sure you can give a full explanation.

"I would change their diet, try to "self-diagnose", and, if it came to it, find a humane way to put them down." Hey, wait a minute. I distinctly remember you saying you were a country gal and knew humane ways to kill animals. Don't you remember that? Did you decide it might not be humane after all to blow a guinea pig to bits with a shotgun?

 

[Paula]

Your willingness to put a price on the value of their lives because of where you feel they "rank" in order of other pets speaks volumes to your own humanity.

I don't have the time right now, but give me a couple days to research. Maybe I can find something that doesn't relate to religion, for my argument.

Don’t bother.

You are working very diligently to fit your personal desires to breed your pets into your personal beliefs, and it’s gone on long enough. It’s clear you feel such a sense of moral superiority to your pets that you feel neither the need to care for them with kindness and compassion nor the need to protect them, and others, from pain and unnecessary suffering. It’s also clear that you aren’t going to change your mind because doing so would require you to reevaluate your own beliefs and desires. And you certainly won’t succeed in convincing any of us any of the things you choose to believe at the moment that justify your haphazard choice to create life while so many are snuffed out all around you.

If you open your mind, and your heart, you stand a good chance at teaching your children (and perhaps yourself) to be responsible not just for themselves but for the world around them. You can teach them to love and respect life, in all its forms, and truly be “good stewards” of the animals in their lives. Or, instead, you can teach them to be careless with life and choose to do what suits them and them alone and justify it by religion or “belief” or whatever face you choose to paint on it. The choice really is yours, but I’m getting a little tired of arguing with a person who can’t be bothered to treat her pets with the same respect and dignity she feels her children are entitled to, and I suspect many others here feel the same.

 

[NicholsS10]

If Henry or Lady get sick? I guess I view them on a lower level than a dog. If the vet said, "Bring 'em in. It'll cost you $5 to see what's wrong with them." Fine and good. But if it cost $100? No. I'm sorry, I would change their diet, try to "self-diagnose", and, if it came to it, find a humane way to put them down.

So let me get this straight, just because they are smaller, have a shorter life span than the average dog, and initially cost less than a dog, are lives have less meaning?

I'm sorry but I find the very notion of that logic so disgusting and outrageous it makes me want to puke. Who are you to say that a guinea pig's life is any less important than a dog or a cat or a horse or any other creature for that matter?!

I feel sorry for your pigs.

 

[PiggyKat]

Ok been watching this for a while now and have to say my peice.
Genipher: I understand that your original post you were saying that these two were housed together and that if they were pregnant that you would be willing to take care of that. I have no problem with you adopting and knowing that they maybe pregnant and still taking on that responsibility, that is noble. HOWEVER not doing proper precautions, not taking them to the vet, and pretending that everything is just going to turn out alright because you think it will, is very irresponsible.
Animals feel pain. During labor, during shots at the vet, during everything. How can they feel one sort of pain and not the other? I do think they are better prepared for labor as we have used our brains to create drugs and other things to dull the pain. I have not had kids but being in the medical field and watching babies of animals and people be born there really is no difference. They feel pain. We learned to help those who couldn't have kids naturally, animals haven't done that. If the baby cannot be born the mom and baby die. That is nature. We however go around nature. That is what we have done since we figured out we had brains to think with.
One thing I do not understand is why did you get an animal when you won't even take the time to properly take care of it? Vet bills are part of taking care of an animal. Sorry that is makes you pay money to make sure your animals is healthy and not pregnant. I don't make a lot of money and I still take mine to the vet at the smallest sneeze. And I have 4 pigs that is 100$ for all four!
I think you started with good intentions but not doing what an responsible owner should do really irritates me. Don't get an animal if you are not going to take care of it.

 

[JD In Van]

Wow. I don't know if I'm more offended by this as an animal owner or a parent.

I'm sorry for your children, being exposed to such an absolutely ignornat "lesson" on procreation.

I'm sorry that they'll take home the message that it's okay to recklessly throw together two beings recklessly of if a baby is created or not - it doesn't matter. I'm sorry that they'll learn that forethought is not important. I'm sorry that you didn't teach them to commit to the care of themselves and the beings in thier care. I'm sorry that they'll learn that consequences can be delt with later - or hidden. I'm sorry that you taught them that life isn't something valuable. That offspring can be made on a wim and then given away, or 'put out of their misery'. I am sorry that they might extrapolate from this lesson that they were so carelessly created.

I hope when one of them comes home knocked up at 14 or having knocked someone up you'll look back at this particular discussion and remember that this is what you taught them. And before you say 'I didn't raise my kids like that', you did, you are.

 

[rabbitsncavyluv]

So is that why guinea pigs leave their cages every night and go into the streets looking for mates? They know they have to procreate to keep their species going even though there are millions of homeless pets out there already? Ha. Funny.

No it is because breeders like you put them together and force them to mate when the sows go into heat, which is automatic and not controlled. You think they'd want to have babies when there is a 20% chance they could die?

Thank you for correcting me on the "mate" and "procreate" terms. I've meant "procreate" in my past posts.

And really? They're calling the human sex drive "heat"? Is it on 24/7? Or does it depend on the person?

No, I don't think animals are more advanced than people. But I think they are born knowing they need to procreate to further the species. Thus, pregnancy. I don't have the time right now, but give me a couple days to research. Maybe I can find something that doesn't relate to religion, for my argument.

 

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Your poor guinea pigs.

$100 does not treat anything at the vet let alone $5. It is $40 to 65 for an office exam alone.

JD - usually kids remember these types of lessons when the parents are old and sick. I hope hers do.

 

[GPigsRSweet]

and, if it came to it, find a humane way to put them down.

This made me sick.

 

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Did you sadly expect better from this type of person?

Is there a 'humane' way of putting a pet down for less than $5? Other than the obvious. Disgusting.

 

[Jennicat]

Ah, are you speaking of the adrenaline hormone?

No, as already mentioned in my first post, I'm referring to endorphines.

(broken link removed)

I'm just curious...have you had children? And if so, did you have them without drugs? Because that adrenaline hormone? Um, it doesn't kick in there. So while there may be instances where people are able to cut their arm off, etc., in childbirth, we don't get that!

Nope, I haven't given birth. One of my close friends has had two natural births now, and she managed to get through just fine. Maybe she's part guinea pig.

Don't animals eat their young to, in a weird way, "protect" it? And who in the world came up with the idea that animals eat their young because they've associated the offspring with pain?

Typically some species eat their young when they are in a stressful environment. This is because they feel like the litter likely won't survive and it's to regain the nutrients in the bodies of their infants so that they can relocate and try again to hopefully have another successful litter.

The first person that told me about the offspring/pain connection was a PhD in Equine Sciences during my horse specialty in college. The second person was a PhD in Animal Sciences with a concentration in pork production. He told us this as they euthanized a baby pig missing it's snout and eye where the mother had savaged it. In commercial pork production, they've actually got racks that prevent the sows from reaching the piglets because they're so prone to doing this. This guy had wandered too far forward.

Aggressive reactions towards pain are quite normal in animals, which is why one of the first things recommended with an aggressive animal is a vet visit to rule out underlying illness.

Really, most of these things that you incredulously refuse to believe are quite well documented. Animals are widely studied, both biologically and behaviorally, and we know a tremendous amount about them and their lives. So when you say things like the statement above, you come across as even more uninformed and it's very frustrating that you've come to sweeping and grandiose conclusions about how animals work and how their biology works apparently basically by making it all up in your head.

Yes, and with the dog, we took him in when he had problems: as a pup, as well.
If Henry or Lady get sick? I guess I view them on a lower level than a dog. If the vet said, "Bring 'em in. It'll cost you $5 to see what's wrong with them." Fine and good. But if it cost $100? No. I'm sorry, I would change their diet, try to "self-diagnose", and, if it came to it, find a humane way to put them down.

You know, I don't necessarily have a problem with this attitude. My mom felt the same way about animals. However, because she felt that way, she chose, responsibly, not to have pets which she didn't feel were worth the time and effort, instead of getting animals and then giving them half-masted care which would lead to their shortened lives.

 

[SFailed186]

I know animals feel pain. If they didn't, they wouldn't squeal, bark, growl, etc.

Then why do guinea pigs squeal and make other noises when they are giving birth? I have seen videos of pigs completely alone (using a webcam to document birth) that still reacted that way. There weren't any cage mates or people watching, not that those things have ANYTHING at all to do with the guinea pigs attitudes and what-not, but still. I am just trying to prove to you, like it's been proven to all of us every time you post, that you are ignorant (among other things).

I'm just curious...have you had children? And if so, did you have them without drugs? Because that ENDORPHIN hormone? Um, it doesn't kick in there. So while there may be instances where people are able to cut their arm off, etc., in childbirth, we don't get that!

Ok, here's the thing, you are wrong (no surprise there).

Yes, you do get the endorphins. You just don't realize that. Endorphins always kick in when you are in pain. I'm sure that labor hurts like Hades (trust me, I can imagine based off experience), but you are not feeling the full pain really. You have never felt pain without having your endorphins kick in, no one has. Imagine how bad it would hurt without this hormone... Probably 10x worse.

Didn't you feel relief (physical) after your children were out? That would be the rush of endorphins.

 

[Sirene]

" Did you decide it might not be humane after all to blow a guinea pig to bits with a shotgun?

No, I think Genipher may be the kind of person who thinks that this IS humane. After all, it's quick, right?

Unfortunately I knew someone at college whose father did *exactly this* to her sick guinea pig. Disgusting.

 

[sdpiggylvr]

Genipher -

Is it so hard for you to understand what we're saying? After five pages of trying to tell you, you still don't seem to get it.

Breeding (of any kind) is frowned-upon. You're doing a disservice to all involved - the mother, father, and babies. You're just adding to the number of homeless pets. And I don't know what kind of life lesson for your kids in involved there. (?)

Giving birth is in no way, shape, or form an easy thing. I've never had a child myself but from the experience of other women I know, I can say this for sure. It is strenuous, exhausting, and extremely painful. And I would never, no matter what, force any animals of mine into doing just that. And yes, you do force your animal to give birth when you put them together and leave them to their own devices.

I have no idea where you go the idea, but for animals there is no internal desire to have babies. Many animals live out their entire lives without ever giving birth, and they are happy as can be. Not to mention a lot healthier and safer, without contributing to the overpopulation of animals.

Please, just finalize the gender of both pigs so that we can all calm down. If you must, take them to a cavy-experienced vet.

Hopefully you understand what it is we're trying to explain.

 

[1frankie7]

So, what your saying is that because say, a dog. Has a shorter life span than a human, that it doesn't deserve a life. That it doesn't deserve medical care? Animals are not a right. They are a privilege.

I will not say anything about breeding, My thoughts have already been said.


I think you should rehome your pigs. They deserve medical care. They deserve a life where they won't be put through pain, because of ignorance.

Animals are not JUST animals, they deserve the same quality of life as any human.


Animals, don't want to breed. It's their instinct. If you think an animal wants to go through the pain of childbirth. You are very very wrong.

 

[GPigsRSweet]

I'll be back to defend myself against these fiery arrows when able.

I'm sorry, but your "defending" is doing absolutely NO good. These are highly experienced guinea pig owners and rescuers you are talking too. Some have seen many poor pigs from breeders like you. Do you think they are going to back off? No. If you think you are going to be able to convince them that breeding is "okay" you are very mistaken.