Introductions Help, my 2 male pigs fight!

[HumFred]

Hi,
I am new to this forum and desperatly need some help from all the experienced people on here:

In October last year I adopted a single male guinea pig named Humbert from the rescue centre at my local pet store and it said he was not to be kept with any other guinea pigs as he has a history of fighting and was brought back twice. I knew guinea pigs are far better of with a friend and after some research I found out that he really does need a friend and that its worth trying myself with the right knowledge. I kept my eye out for another single pig in the rescue and a few weeks ago they has a 16 week old male named Freddy who was also by himself. It seemed perfect, and it was to begin with. After spending some time on their own for Freddy to get used to us and his new home they met in a neuteral enviroment and everything seemed fine. There was some rumbling but all in all it went really well. I then slowly increased the time they spend together during the day and after about a week they slept together in the same cage. In the morning I found them both in the same house snuggled up together. I thought it would be plain sailing from there, but I was wrong.

After a few days together in the same cage without anything wrong (appart from occasional rumbling, which I thought was normal in the first week) one day I got home from work and heard alot of squeeking. When I checked on them Humbert was humping Freddy over and over. Freddy would escape and run away but Humbert kept chasing him. They went face to face and it got too intense for my liking so I split them up for the night. The next day they had floor time together and they played for about an hour. When I put them back in the cage together within 5 minutes a massive fight broke out. I split them up and unfortunatly Humbert had a little cut in his lip :weepy: I felt absolutly terrible and I feel like I could have somehow prevented this if I did things differently. Now they are seperate. They spend 5 minutes together on the floor last night but there was massive displays of aggression from both of them and another attempt to fight. At the moment I have even had to move their cages to different sides of the room because when they are next to each other they chew the bars and chatter their teeth and it seems to cause stress for both of them. Have I messed it up for good or can they still be friends? Could it be because Freddy is (approximatly) 16 weeks old and is challenging Humbert? Should I try again or give it some time?

I am planning to build a massive C&C cage soon (They are in rabbit cages now, which are not very small, but still kind of boring) Would a new cage without any smell at all be the solution. If I have to I will build them both their own half, but I would much rather they were friends :sorry:
Please help! Any advise is welcome. I realise I might have done stuff wrong, but I am here to learn!

 

[Ly&Pigs]

When doing proper introductions, you can't repeatedly put them together and take them apart. This causes the dominance issue to "reset" every single time and they get no where except they end up more stressed. They should not have been split up when you had them in the cage together as they were working on establishing dominance. Those behaviors are quite normal and even face offs are normal. One has to submit to the other and often it can take hours or days. The only reason to separate is if there is major bloodshed.

Please read Guinea Pigs Social Life for info on introductions and behaviors during introductions.

I'd also keep them apart until such time as you can build a large (2x4) or larger C&C cage then do proper introductions one time and then put them in the cage together.

A boar at approximately 16 weeks of age can be entering puberty which can make things a bit more tricky as far as introductions but with a lot of patience and time, things may end up working out.

 

[ccaggiano4]

Ly&Pigs - I made the same mistake when introducing my pigs. I, too, read the cavyspirit guide to introducing. The guide is very clear about what to expect when doing the initial introduction in a neutral place but doesn't elaborate on what to expect when they go in the cage together.

If you do a google search for "introducing guinea pigs" cavyspirit is the first link to come up. This might be a bit presumptuous but do you know anyone over there? Maybe if they added a paragraph about "moving in" after the "dating game" it would clear things up and help other people.

 

[lissie]

If you have enough space, you could build a 2x6. If they really don't get along, you can put a divider in the middle so they'll each have a 2x3 cage.

Hidey with multiple entrances/exits work better than pigloo because they can't get trapped inside. Mine like towel tents. You'll need 3 hideys, 2 pellet dishes, 2 water bottles and 2 hay racks.

 

[Catayn]

Humping is normal, I suppose.
And you have to introduce them at once.
I've also heard that some piggies will never get along no matter how hard you try, but then you can keep them in divided cages. Also if you get a bigger cage it will help you a lot.
I have 5 males living together in peace, so I believe it's possible to get them to be friends.

 

[Tdchewy]

After you introduce them on neutral territory, be sure to clean the cage and its contents completely to remove existing scents before placing them back in the cage. The bigger the cage, the better off you should be as they can get away from each other when they want.

 

[vickyangel3]

If you are really worried and they can't spend any time together without fighting then separate them, its better than them getting hurt. Some pigs just don't like each other. I had the same problem with my boys. We ended up separating them and then went down the route of castration and females each. You don't have to do that and could try as Lissie suggested a separation 2x6 so they have space each, company but don't hurt each other. Just made the separation strong, you don't want them crossing it and hurting each other whilst you are out!

 

[ferndalezoo]

As Ly said, there were a few errors in your introductions that may have precipitated this. I'd start ALL over again.

Build the new cage FIRST. AT LEAST a 2x4, bigger if you can. In fact, the bigger the better.

Do re-intros on very neutral ground. Humping is normal. Rumbling is normal. "I can hold my head higher in the air than you can!" is normal. Chasing, mounting, lots of vocalizations... all normal. Intense to watch, and disconcerting, yes, but normal. LET IT HAPPEN.

When you put them in the new cage, be sure it's completely clean (I'd recommend all new stuff, including bedding, and run all the plastic or metal items through the dishwasher). Be sure that any hideys have two ways in and out (use covered bent grids instead of Pigloos, or cut another exit in the Pigloos) so no one can get cornered in them. If there's no bloodshed, leave them be. Eventually, they will most likely work it out. As was noted, introducing and reintroducing them over and over again isn't helping, and may have made it worse.

 

[HumFred]

Thanks for all the advise. I had no idea that splitting them up every day made it worse. I was worried they might fight when I went out and Ididn't want to risk coming home to injured piggies. At the moment they can't even come near each other without massive aggressive behaviour, so I am going to leave it till I build the new cage. What if they actually go for each other? Should I still leave them to it? Like I said, my adult male (he is about 2 years old) had a cut in his lip which was bleeding quite badly. I think I am not sure when to split them up and when to leave them.

 

[Emberlyn]

I understand where you're coming from. Sometimes watching your pigs go nuts on eachother is...well...frustrating, to say the least. When introducing my third, the pigs had me up until five in the morning going at it! My boyfriend supervised when I finally had enough and went to sleep on the couch. My middle pig, which had just got out of puberty, challenged the alpha male, and won, as well as asserting his place over the smaller one.

With your situation it may be somewhat different because a cut was seen on the one pig. But you can't really be squeemish with the rumbelstrutting and intense chasing...they'll get over it. It may just take a while.

 

[Ly&Pigs]

This might be a bit presumptuous but do you know anyone over there? Maybe if they added a paragraph about "moving in" after the "dating game" it would clear things up and help other people.

Yes, I do. Her name is CavySpirit aka Teresa. She is also the owner of this site and many others both animal and non animal related. Basically all the behaviors you see during the dating game can happen after the "moving in" because the dating game continues.

 

[HumFred]

The only reason to separate is if there is major bloodshed.

Please read Guinea Pigs Social Life for info on introductions and behaviors during introductions.

So after reading all that again and listening to everyones advise are you saying its ok for them to fight a little? I am just so worried one of them will get seriously injured. They did leap at each other and stand face to face teeth chattering. :guilty:

 

[Ly&Pigs]

Face off's, nose off's, teeth chattering, etc. is not fighting.

 

[fieryone]

So after reading all that again and listening to everyones advise are you saying its ok for them to fight a little? I am just so worried one of them will get seriously injured. They did leap at each other and stand face to face teeth chattering. :guilty:

It can be noisy for days, even weeks. It's hard to listen to, but unless they're bleeding it's best to leave them alone. They're just being pigs and doing what comes naturally to them. They don't have the same social rules as we humans do . When I introduced my Lola to my existing 2 pigs it was noisy for 3 weeks. When I introduced my neutered male to my existing 3 girls, it was noisy for more than a month. It's now been 3-4 months and there are still issues sometimes with occasional bouts of whining, chattering, nipping, and face offs. Sometimes the girls will clock him when he's being too....amorous and he will have a little tooth sized cut on his lip or nose. This is not bloodshed.

 

[HumFred]

I tried to put them together again on a clean blanket with lots of food there for them and space to run away. They went for each other multiple times and even though I was right there to split them up within seconds, they both got injured. They just seem to hate each other so much. It looks like my 16 week old boy Freddy wants to take over from Humbert as he was the one that kept running after him. I first noticed a deep cut on Freddy's shoulder. It was like a little skin flap hanging loose. It wasn't till a while later that I noticed blood on humberts neck. When I checked him he had a cut of about an inch wide and half an inch deep. It was really horrible to see and that was the final straw for me. I have no idea what you guys mean with major bloodshed, but to me they just both seemed stressed and unhappy and I don't feel I have the knowledge and experience to supervise them through all this. I feel like whatever I do just makes it worse and this whole scary experience makes me not want to try again. For now they will both get their own half of the cage.