Veg*n Eating guinea pigs - an insight into another culture

[Krysanthemum]

In law, both Australian and American (as I understand it), there is a distinction between animals intended for pets and for food.

In the US, there is no distinction. Here is an exact case in point, boy kills and cooks guinea pig for class demo. ((broken link removed)). Not a crime.

Yeah, I remember that article. Is it that it wasn't a crime, or that the boy wasn't charged because he was a minor? I would have thought that if an adult had done the same thing, the consequences would have been very different. As I said, I'm not a lawyer, but that was my impression.

It is very significantly the lessor of two evils and it is very much ALSO a profoundly moral decision--unless you subscribe to the acceptability of wholesale torture and abuse as being moral.

Of course I'm not advocating the abuse of animals. I am simply suggesting that to use said cruelties as a reason for vegetarianism is a little flimsy, when your own diet is a direct result of equally destructive agricultural methods.

I thought of another analogy. Yes, there would seem to be a conflict between keeping animals as pets, and then eating a big steak. However, as a vegetarian, do you keep plants in your house or garden? Some people care deeply about their plants, they spend lots of time caring for them, but I'm sure they still enjoy their leafy greens.

Of course, animals have more rights than plants. But humans have more rights than animals. I'm not saying the torture of animals is right, but we as humans do (I believe) have the right to kill and eat them as nourishment if we choose. I respect your decision not to, but ask that you equally respect my decision. Or at the very least, agree to disagree.

Oh and also in this forum, you'll find some posts indicating Australia's horrible record on the meat industry. I'm pretty sure it's here, I'll dig that out later, also.

I haven't read those posts, but I am aware of a number of protests against Australian methods of keeping meat animals, particularly pigs. The actor, James Cromwell, the farmer from "Babe", spoke here recently about how pig farmers house their sows. I hear it's disgusting, although I've never seen it myself, being a city girl. My understanding is that there is progress in Australia towards more humane practices in pig rearing, and that these "sow pens" are on the way out.

Similarly, I've heard a woman from PETA protesting strongly against the Australian wool industry because of a practice called mulesing. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but it involves cutting away the skin around the backside of a sheep to prevent the sheep from becoming flyblown. It's similar to castration or docking lamb tails. Gross, right?

On the other hand, are you familiar with the disease of fly blow? If a sheep is not kept properly clean by mulesing, the area becomes crusted with faeces and attracts flies. Those flies lay their eggs in the sheep's anus and the maggots eat the sheap alive from the inside.

So which is worse? Of course, neither is desirable, but there is ongoing research into chemical methods of keeping the sheep clean without the necessity of mulesing. PETA efforts towards boycotting the Australian wool industry are only making those research efforts more difficult by decreasing funding.

My point? I'm not going to allow my enjoyment of meat be changed by the one-sided propaganda of organisations like PETA. They are probably well intentioned, and most likely represent a portion of the truth, but I find their beliefs and methods to be over the top and offensive.

If I choose to have a hamburger, I will. If you choose not to, good for you. As I keep saying, I have no problem with the choice to be vegetarian. I just don't understand why some vegetarians believe that it is the ONLY moral choice. There are so many different sides to this argument that I don't see it having a black and white solution.

 

[Susan9608]

Vegetarianism *is* a moral choice; actions that harm others are not a matter of personal choice. Murder, child abuse, and cruelty towards animals are all immoral. Even though our society encourages meat eating and factory farming, history also shows that our society once encouraged slavery, child labor, and other practices now universally recognized as wrong.

Meat is not a nutritional requirement. Protein, on the other hand, is a nutritional requirement. Almost all foods contain protein to some degree; you can get enough protein from whole wheat bread, oatmeal, beans, corn, peas, mushrooms, or broccoli. In fact, most people get way more protein than they need, about 7 times as much. Too much protein actually causes problems, such as osteoporosis and kidney disease.

The USDA and American Diabetic Association have endorsed vegetarianism because studies have show that vegetarians have stronger immune systems than meat-eaters and that meat-eaters are almost twice as likely to die of heart disease, 60 percent more likely to die of cancer, and 30 percent more likely to die of other diseases. The consumption of meat and dairy products has been conclusively linked with diabetes, arthritis, osteoporosis, clogged arteries, obesity, asthma, and impotence.

Human beings are much more suited to a vegetarian diet than anything else. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to those of carnivores, and even compared to vegetarian primates like gorillas and oranguatans. Our tiny canine teeth are better suited to biting into fruits than tearing through tough hides. We have flat molars and a long digestive tract suited to a diet of vegetables, fruits, and grains. Eating meat is hazardous to our health; it contributes to heart disease, cancer, and many other health problems.

No one expects other species of animals to become vegetarian. Human beings have the unique ability to think, reason, and plan their actions - other animals operate on instinct. Plus, other species of animals do not raise animals for the sole purpose of consuming them and carnivores do not subject their prey to the tortures of factory farming.

I think the real problem is not with the evidence that supports the moral, environmental, and health related benefits of a vegetarian diet. I think the real problem is the human factor - human beings turn a blind eye to the benefits of vegetarianism because if they didn't, they would be forced to make a change and give up the food they enjoy and go to extra trouble to prepare meals and deal with the hassles of eating out and so on and so forth. I think that's the real issue - people don't want to change their behavior.

 

[Krysanthemum]

Vegetarianism *is* a moral choice; actions that harm others are not a matter of personal choice. Murder, child abuse, and cruelty towards animals are all immoral. Even though our society encourages meat eating and factory farming, history also shows that our society once encouraged slavery, child labor, and other practices now universally recognized as wrong.

Just to reiterate, I agree with you, vegetarianism is a moral choice, but in my opinion, it is not the *only* moral choice.

And agreed, murder, child abuse and cruelty towards animal is immoral. However, your examples of cultural changes - including slavery and child labor - are human-related atrocities which have been reversed. Do you have an example of an animal-related reversal in culture?

I think that's the real issue - people don't want to change their behavior.

In my case, that is 100% true. I enjoy most meats. At times, I have joked that I am more of a carnivore than omnivore. But that is not just because I enjoy meat so much, or I am dogmatically turning a blind eye to animal cruelty, but because I largely do not enjoy fruits and vegetables. I eat enough to sustain myself, but given the choice, I would much rather have a steak than an apple. As it is, I struggle to include enough vegetable matter in my diet to keep me healthy.

While I understand that some people find a great benefit in health through vegetarianism, I don't think the same would be true for me. I would find it difficult to find a variety of foods that I enjoyed. I know that the same is not true for others. My mother, while not really vegetarian, does not enjoy meat nearly as much as I do.

But this is the point that I've been making all along. It is my choice. I've heard all the arguments for vegetarianism, and I'm not disputing them for a second. I've heard about all the animal welfare atrocities perpetrated against so many species. While it is atrocious, I nevertheless choose to eat meat, because I enjoy it. I respect your decision not to do so, but I would appreciate the same respect in return.

Out of curiosity, CavySpirit and Susan9068, do you eat eggs? Have you seen the conditions in which farms keep battery chickens? Or drink milk and eat cheese, with the machine production lines that dairies have set up?

 

[CavySpirit]

While it is atrocious, I nevertheless choose to eat meat, because I enjoy it.

I choose not to eat meat because my heart hurts knowing of the extreme torture that other living creatures suffer as a result of my self-indulgent enjoyment. It's not worth it.

Out of curiosity, CavySpirit and Susan9068, do you eat eggs?

I'm not perfect. Far, far from it. I never claimed to be. I only buy free-range, antibiotic-free eggs. I make a serious effort. I refrain from buying leather. I never ever buy fur. I avoid as many animal products as I can. I get better all the time. It's a step at a time for me and for many others.

If we were going to sit down at a meal together and you had a big juicy steak, I wouldn't say one word to you about it. However, don't come on this forum and expect me or others to leave it alone and respect your 'decision' and allow you to toss out all the standard misconceptions that meat-eaters have and leave it alone.

I know you and millions of other people 'enjoy it.' Who cares and so what?

 

[CavySpirit]

Oh, and the fact that the killing and cooking a cavy wasn't a crime had absolutely nothing to do with his being a juvenile.

 

[CavySpirit]

Of course I'm not advocating the abuse of animals. I am simply suggesting that to use said cruelties as a reason for vegetarianism is a little flimsy, when your own diet is a direct result of equally destructive agricultural methods.

I am so floored by this comment, I can't even figure out how to respond to it. I think you need to just forget about this thread and don't come back to this vegetarian forum. That's a sincere request.

 

[Krysanthemum]

If we were going to sit down at a meal together and you had a big juicy steak, I wouldn't say one word to you about it. However, don't come on this forum and expect me or others to leave it alone and respect your 'decision' and allow you to toss out all the standard misconceptions that meat-eaters have and leave it alone.

Just to reiterate, I purposefully did not come to the Vegetarian section of this forum because I knew I would disagree with a lot of the views here. But this conversation started in the Kitchen, and I simply answered a question about how someone could both keep pets and still enjoy eating meat. While I have enjoyed the debate on the subject, I'm about finished with the hard headed propaganda being sprouted here.

You speak of my meat-eating standard misconceptions? While I agree with a lot of what you have spoken about, and have learned a lot, I have also seen you make statements which I think are absolute rubbish - vegetarian misconceptions, if you will. I see that as a difference of opinion and I'm fine with that, but you are steadfastly refusing to see that my opinions are just as valid as yours.

Not once have I said, "I am right and you are wrong," but that is all I'm hearing from you.

My intention with this conversation hasn't been to "convert" anyone, I was enjoying an exchange of ideas and beliefs, with the hope that some understand could be reached that my opinions were as valid as yours, although we agree to disagree, but it's obvious that that is not going to be forthcoming.

I am so floored by this comment, I can't even figure out how to respond to it. I think you need to just forget about this thread and don't come back to this vegetarian forum. That's a sincere request.

I do intend this to be my last comment and my last visit to the vegetarian forums. It's obvious that I'm not going to get the respectful exchange of ideas and opinions that I was hoping for. As I said, this conversation did not start in the Vegetarian forum, but it's fairly obvious that your moving of this conversation here was an attempt to shut me up.

 

[Krysanthemum]

Oh, and the fact that the killing and cooking a cavy wasn't a crime had absolutely nothing to do with his being a juvenile.

Yes, you're right about this. I asked my fiance last night, and he told me that animal cruelty is illegal but killing an animal humanely is legal. It was news to me, but there you go, you learn something new every day.

 

[LiciaMommycott]

I do intend this to be my last comment and my last visit to the vegetarian forums. It's obvious that I'm not going to get the respectful exchange of ideas and opinions that I was hoping for.

Ditto! I have also stayed out of the vegetarian cheering section because of the lack of interest in a reasonable discussion. However, I don't want Krysanthemum to feel all alone out there so I'm just posting my support for her comments which were stated much more eloquently than mine.

 

[Susan9608]

Krysanthemum, just in case you're still reading.

You asked if I eat eggs and dairy products. I don't. If I happen to need an egg for baking or cooking (which rarely happens, as I don't cook), I only use eggs from free-range hens. I avoid dairy whenever possible. I drink soy milk and cook with it (again, rarely). I eat soy cheese. I eat soy ice cream. I haven't yet found a good substitute for sour cream, but I have my fingers crossed because I *love* sour cream and it's been very difficult to give it up.

I also don't wear leather or own anything leather. When we purchased a new car, we had to have it specially made without leather seats, and it actually cost us more money ... which I found unbelievable. I don't wear fur. I don't use products tested on animals if at all possible. I belong to animal rights groups; I do protest marches, boycotts, etc. etc.

If there is any hypocrisy in my life style, I try to correct it whenever I find it, even if it means giving up things I enjoy.

You said you want you opinion to be respected. In response, I say this ... I respect your right to *have* a different opinion, but I do not respect your opinion. I think your choices are selfish and lazy ... and I don't respect that. Now, whether or not I respect your choices really doesn't matter, because I'm a stranger to you and my opinion really, I'm sure, matters nothing to you. But you *asked* for our ("our" being the die-hard vegetarians) respect of your opinion. I refuse to go the "let's agree to disagree" route. It may be easier and more pleasant, but while I can't force you to change, I can't say I respect your decisions and choices. That, I feel, would be a cop-out and hypocritical of me.

So I apologize for anything I said that came across as a personal attack and/or anything I said that was offensive to you. But while I respect you as a human being/fellow living creature, I think your ooinion and decisions on this issue are terribly, terribly wrong.

 

[Susan9608]

An added thought ....

I think what I find the most wrong about your opinion and choices (and what makes them impossible to respect) is the fact that you actually stated that you know and understand all the reasons for vegetarianism and agree that animals should not be treated badly, but that you *continue* to eat meat, which adds to the misery and suffering of animals, because you "enjoy" it. To me, that is the epitome of selfishness.

 

[lindsey's boys]

I agree. I think it's just plain old SICK to enjoy eating animals. I usually don't eat meat. Since i'm a growing child, I do occasionally eat meat. But I have to tell you, my mom pretty much has to shove it down my throat.

 

[2boar1sow]

As I said, this conversation did not start in the Vegetarian forum, but it's fairly obvious that your moving of this conversation here was an attempt to shut me up.

I also do not understand why cavyspirit would move this discussion into the vegatarian forum, except to gain support, which is an abuse of power if you ask me.This forum is provegatarian, The kitchen forum is not. This thread should not have been moved here. Cavyspirit could have simply said, "Go look at the vegatarian forum" without moving this thread here.

Krysanthemum and Licia, I agree with you that PETA and many people in these forums try to shove non-meat eating propaganda down our throats. I will probably get heat from my fellow vegatarians, but I try to encourage them to avoid using some of these ridiculous arguements. I am sorry that you have been met with such hostility, when you did not even start this thread in the vegatarian forum.

With that said. Saying something is a moral choice, immediately implies there is a moral or an immoral choice to be made. People have not said you must become a vegatarian, rather, so and so is a reason why it is the immoral choice not to be. I will also give my reasons, for sake of discussion. I respect your choice to eat meat, but obviously does not mean I agree with it.

Animals have a nervous system and a brain. To me it is obvious that they think and feel pain. This is what distinguishes them from other nutrients to me. I am slightly disturbed by your justification to eat meat because you enjoy it so much. Of course, all our choices are choices that we have decided are the best choice at the time, but we often give up things we enjoy in life for other more important things to us. I also enjoyed very much eating meat at one point. I decided that my pleasure did not justify the pain animals experience when they are raised to be our food. I probably don't enjoy eating a single fruit. And am very picky with my vegatables. I like corn, potatoes, onions and thats about it. That does not mean that I cannot be a vegatarian.

There is a choice for me to make and thats why I have made it. Concerning eating other crops that have damaged the environment. There is a choice in which crops to eat. I also eat the free range milk and egg stuff. And try my best to eat organic crops that don't abuse the rainforests and cause soil erosion. It is not the easiest thing to do. I personally feel that it is sad that you justify eating meat with personal pleasure. I think it is more than possible for you to be vegatarian and still live a happy life. I enjoy my life more knowing that I'm not killing animals. To me the the moral decision, no matter how much an inconvience it is to me, is always worth it.

You have made several other comments that I believe other vegatarians have done well rebuting, which is normal in any debate. Even if you never decide to be a vegatarian, or think I'm crazy for giving up pleasure for the sake of preventing animal pain and suffering, I still respect your decision to eat meat because your life simply has not exposed you to the same things that my life has exposed to me.

 

[2boar1sow]

When vegatarians compare eating meat to slavery and child labor and women's rights, I don't think they are saying it has the same gravity. They are merely pointing out that standards and norms do not make something moral and that our hope is for the standard to change like it has with slavery, child labor, and women's rights.

 

[CavySpirit]

This thread was moved to the vegetarian forum because it became a topic about vegetarianism. There is a whole forum here where all of the points raised have already been discussed multiple times. It was not a move to shut you up. We always move threads to the appropriate forum.

I also do not understand why cavyspirit would move this discussion into the vegatarian forum, except to gain support, which is an abuse of power if you ask me.This forum is provegatarian, The kitchen forum is not. This thread should not have been moved here. Cavyspirit could have simply said, "Go look at the vegatarian forum" without moving this thread here.

There is absolutely no reason for me or anyone else to reinvent the discussions and points about vegetarianism. This thread belongs here. It is not an 'abuse of power.' If you want to acuse me of abusing power, then the very fact that I created a pro-vegetarian forum, would, I suppose qualify. But then, so is the fact that I don't allow promotion of too-small (according to my position of power) pet store cages. Also, my abuse of power is quite clear in the tough stance I take on being anti-breeding. So, in a lot of ways, I most definitely am abusing my 'power.' When threads about cavy care on the chat forum turn into breeder debates, they are moved to the Kitchen forum--which is anti-breeding. Almost all the time, the initial posts did not start out as a what the thread turns into. Same exact thing here.

I have also stayed out of the vegetarian cheering section because of the lack of interest in a reasonable discussion.

Lack of interest in reasonable discussion? You'll find the most reasonable discussions in all of this entire forum on the vegetarian forum. There is a mountain of quoted material here and serious references linked. You have only to read it.

And, as usual, Susan9608 summed up my exact thoughts on the respecting of opinions/decisions--very eloquently.

ridiculous arguements, 2boar1sow, specifically which arguments are you referring to?

I still respect your decision to eat meat because your life simply has not exposed you to the same things that my life has exposed to me.

I don't think one has to necessarily be exposed to something to appreciate, understand or empathize with it.

many people in these forums try to shove non-meat eating propaganda down our throats.

Exactly, where, outside of this vegetarian forum, are many people shoving non-meating propaganda down your throat?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This entire forum and site is run with my bias towards animal welfare. I do not apologize for it. Call it a power trip if you want to. That's the way it is. I've made no pretense about it anywhere. I try my level best to be fair but stay true to my own belief system about animals and their place in the world. I do what I can do.

 

[Susan9608]

CavySpirit said it all. Everything I could say - and more - and better than I could have said it. Three cheers to you! Some day, meat eaters will be the minority.

 

[Krysanthemum]

An added thought ....

I think what I find the most wrong about your opinion and choices (and what makes them impossible to respect) is the fact that you actually stated that you know and understand all the reasons for vegetarianism and agree that animals should not be treated badly, but that you *continue* to eat meat, which adds to the misery and suffering of animals, because you "enjoy" it. To me, that is the epitome of selfishness.

Fair enough, I can cop to that. Part of my motive in participating in this conversation has been to learn more about the reasons behind vegetarianiam, and while I know I'm never going to change over myself, and disagree with some of the sentiments, I can admit that my decision is purely selfish. I was brought up eating meat, and only discovered later in my life that some people chose to be vegetarian. I just can't see myself making that same decision.

I don't believe that my changing to vegetarianism will actually influence the meat production industry to change their methods in any way. I also do not buy leather or fur, I care for my cavies and other animals as well as I can, so I suppose my contribution is there but lesser.

It is just that vegetarians like CavySpirit, with their whole-hearted support of biased PETA propaganda and fairly militant views on the evils of meat eating, have always gotten up my nose. I respect her beliefs and her right to create a vegetarian forum, and I would not for a second consider invading that forum and saying "you lot are all nuts". I got involved in a conversation on a different topic in a different forum that veered towards vegetarianism, and found myself being verbally hammered by the forum administrator. So be it. I knew I was never going to convince her otherwise, and wasn't interested in doing so. I was just hoping that I could find a small crack of understanding in her attitudes.

I guess I believe just as strongly in the importance of human politeness to each other as you guys do about animal welfare.

 

[Susan9608]

I don't really think I've said anything impolite in any of my posts, but if I did, I offered you an apology in one of my last posts ....

If you don't believe that you and your choices/attitudes can make a difference in how animals are treated, then why do you avoid leather and fur? What makes those industries more inexcuseable than the treatment of animals used for food? And why does your contribution (by not wearing fur/leather) help out, but your being a vegetarian would not?

Every journey begins with one small step ... and every change begins with one person. One person *can* make a difference. If everyone held the belief that you do, that their individual contribution was insignificant, then nothing would every happen. There would still be slavery in America ... children would still be forced into labor ... women still wouldn't have the right to vote ... minorities wouldn't have the right to vote ...

Each person who joins the animal rights movement, who boycotts practices that are cruel to animals, brings the whole movement one step closer to achieving the goal of humane treatment for all animals, human or not.

I find it very sad that this is one of your reasons for not wanting to change your life style and make more humane choices.

You said, "It is just that vegetarians like CavySpirit, with their whole-hearted support of biased PETA propaganda and fairly militant views on the evils of meat eating have always gotten up my nose." Well, I am *proud* to be a whole-hearted supporter of PETA. And I am *glad* to have militant views on the evils of meat eating. So I guess you'll have to pick me out of your nose as well.

 

[CavySpirit]

I don't believe that my changing to vegetarianism will actually influence the meat production industry to change their methods in any way.

Then similarly, not buying animals in a pet store will not influence the pet trade industry in any way. And on and on with the analogies. Keeping it relevent to this site, not breeding your guinea pig will not have any influence on the pet overpopulation problem in any way.

It is just that vegetarians like CavySpirit, with their whole-hearted support of biased PETA propaganda and fairly militant views on the evils of meat eating, have always gotten up my nose.

And the 'let's all be polite to each other while I finish my steak' views gets up my nose. But more than that, when you are empathetic to any degree with the animals' pain and suffering, it hurts. It's emotionally and intellectually painful and difficult to bear. It's more than a knee-jerk reaction to a hot topic. It's something you take on as part of yourself. And because it is so damn bloody easy to eat meat and consume meat-related products, you have to make it a strong part of yourself to resist those seductively easy temptations. It's very, very hard. It's not a 'think about it once in a while during a thread discussion on a forum' kind of thing. It's in your face every day and you have to keep reminding yourself WHY you are denying yourself the pleasure of that steak or burger or whatever. So yeah, we are a little more passionate about the topic and some of us are a little less polite.

Well, I am *proud* to be a whole-hearted supporter of PETA. And I am *glad* to have militant views on the evils of meat eating.

Ditto.

 

[2boar1sow]

Cavyspirit. It has been previously stated that this is not only a vegatarian forum, this is a provegatarian forum where meat eating perspectives have been met with disrespect and hostility. Hence this discussion does not belong here. It was started by a meat eating person with non vegatarian views. If you don't think vegatarians should repeat what they have already said, then again I ask you, why did you not simply suggest krysanthemum take a look at the vegatarian forum herself/himself without moving the thread here?

The fact is you moved this thread here and someone who was looking for a polite response was met with hostile vegatarians. A good impression? I think not. If you want vegatarianism to be the norm I suggest you learn from your mistakes.

Ridiculous arguements are the things people say like, "too much protein is harmful" (there are others, most of which with I have already mentioned my discontent) as a reason not to eat meat. COMMON, maybe some people get too much protein, but obviously eating meat doesn't cause you to have too much protein and I'd bet its more common for vegatarians not to get enough. Personally I like your reasons more than others. Animals are definitely treated poorly when being raised for human consumption in most circumstances.

I try to keep an open mind. I feel when problems are presented to me, I am much more open to change when I don't feel like the person presenting the ideas is hostile, dissrespectful, or an overall smuck. People not seeing eye to eye with us makes our blood boil when its something important to us, but when we lose control, the way we present ourselves turns others off to our ideas. PETA is a well intentioned orginization, but from what I've seen of the orginization, its members seem to be very passionate about their cause which is good, but when they let it interfere with how they present the problems and solutions to others, there is a problem.