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Veg*n Eating guinea pigs - an insight into another culture

Also, I don't quite understand something you said. You said, "As I already said, I'd rather appeal to reason then simply take someone elses word for it. I see no reason why its better to give a source then not if the source is not credible. Its just putting up a front to make your information look more credible."

I don't understand several things about this statement. First of all, what do you mean when you say you'd rather appeal to "reason" than simply take someone else's word for it? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, if someone tells you a fact and then cites the source for said fact, isn't it *your* job as the reader to decide for yourself if the fact/source is credible? That's the whole point, in my understanding, of listing sources ... so that people can see and decide for themselves.

I don't understand what you're trying to say ... it simply looks like you're blowing smoke to cover up the fact that you a) have not looked at any of our sources, so you can't say for certain whether or not they are credible and b) that you have no sources of your own to list.
 
I see no reason why its better to give a source then not if the source is not credible.

Says you on my sources. I'll be my own judge on what sources I find credible and what I don't. But if you don't provide your source, I have NOTHING to go on. Just your word. Your opinion.

As I already said, I'd rather appeal to reason then simply take someone elses word for it.

EXACTLY. I am certainly not going to take your word for it, just because you say it.

I see no reason why its better to give a source then not if the source is not credible.

I can definitely see why you wouldn't want to provide your sources if they are not credible.

There is a difference between showing someone the video's and tactlessly insulting meat eaters.

Please quote the tactless insults to meat eaters.

I would like to know which stance of mine it is that you find ridiculous.

Okay. You did not get the point of that paragraph at all. Let me try again. I wasn't saying I FOUND your stances ridiculous, I was saying that LIKE YOU claimed originally that our arguments were ridiculous:
Krysanthemum and Licia, I agree with you that PETA and many people in these forums try to shove non-meat eating propaganda down our throats. I will probably get heat from my fellow vegatarians, but I try to encourage them to avoid using some of these ridiculous arguements.
By NOT supporting your positions I could just as easily label your arguments ridiculous. Back them up with some substance.
 
Susan clearly you did not pay attention to a word I said. If someone is interested but skeptical in vegetarianism, should you dismiss them and treat them rudely, or help inch them closer to vegetarianism? You are a vegetarian and your actions reflect on us. If a person meets two vegetarians that are rude guess what they're going to start feeling most vegetarians are like? Yes it is their business, but isn't it yours that you could have inched someone closer to giving up meat but didn't? Take some responsibility for your actions, they affect other people whether you want them to or not. And also Cavyspirit did mention the issue of ridiculous positions in her last post. I quoted it in mine.

I'd rather use my intelligence, like if I see an animal get its neck slit open and it wails I can deduce pretty conclusively that its in pain, rather than read animals are mistreated by farmers and simply trust that. If there is an article written by some 16 year old that I've never heard of, that is saying 60% of fish contain a lethal amount of mercury in them and also writes how animals shouldn't be used for food, and misquotes a source, I'm not going to go around telling people that 60% of fish have a lethal amount of mercury in them. If an article says "An alarming amount of mercury has been found in fish. Scientist believe it is because of pollutants burned in industry falling from the air into the water. Small fish barely have any in them and are safe to eat, but the bigger fish could be hazardous to ones health if eaten too much" and is posted by a federal orginization and quotes sources accurately I'm going to have an understanding of what the author claims is going on and be able to think about it. Can you see the difference?

Cavyspirit, once again, what positions are you talking about? I'm not claiming that 40 percent of vegetarians die within 5 years of becoming one or anything...

Quote the tactless insults? All of them? No thank you. You can find them yourself by looking at the places where the meat eating posters in this thread have said they have been met with hostility.

You don't have to take my word that your sources aren't credible. All you have to do is look into it yourself. Like the chicken article I previously mentioned. I am not claiming to have any sources because I'm not giving any facts, I'm only doubting the validity of yours. If you read an internet article that said soy products reduce people's lifespan by 25 years and you did not hear anything else to counter it, does that mean you'd simply believe that? Or would you be skeptical and think maybe someone who is in the meat industry is just trying to reduce the spread of vegetarianism?

So, I have looked at every source that has been posted in threads that I have visited and I am not taking any positions, so why would I cite something? Am I taking a position that would be more credible if i were to cite an article? Can you tell me what position that is?

It seems to me that you two are having a really hard time grasping what I'm trying to say about encouraging other vegetarians, or you're just being stubborn and trying to invent things to throw back at me. I don't know how many different ways I can put the same statement. Quick recap.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. and Don't believe everything you hear, think for yourself.

I have previously stated why I am telling you these things, so look back and read if you don't understand why. I'll give you benefit of the last word and stop my participation in this thread here. It all comes down to I don't think you go about the best way to encourage vegetarianism and the meat eaters on this thread are all the backup it should take. I think its a cop-out from politeness and effort, to say "oh they weren't really interested anyway". Even if they weren't you should have tried your best for the sake of the animals.
 
Oh one more thing, I apologize to licia if this thread did not take the course you intended it.
 
2boar1sow, you really amaze me. Your vague generalities and accusations that you never back up and refuse to quote are just that. It's so easy.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. and Don't believe everything you hear, think for yourself.

Greatly appreciate the words of wisdom. The personalities and posting styles of members, the moderators, and myself are what they are. You think we do more harm than good here. I completely disagree. I think that's about it. Not much left to discuss on it.

It all comes down to I don't think you go about the best way to encourage vegetarianism and the meat eaters on this thread are all the backup it should take.

This thread was never about "encouraging vegetarianism." It was a debate about the issues. You're entitled to your opinion. I think you need to do what you feel is best your way. We'll do what we think is best our way.
 
2boar1sow said:
Oh one more thing, I apologize to licia if this thread did not take the course you intended it.
Not a problem. It has taken a far more interesting turn. I have been greatly entertained by the debate.
 
"You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. and Don't believe everything you hear"

Ah platitudes ... how effective they are in winning an argument, especially if you can't argue the facts or the issues.
 
I personally think that whether or not you eat meat is less of an issue than how the animals are treated and regarded.

I guess I take an Native American view. I hate to see us taking ourselves out of our place in nature. We are ALSO animals, and need to be "humane" to ourselves. We are not natural vegetarians, we have evolved into omnivores (like our cousins the chimps, but not like our cousins the gorillas) - and that adaptability is one of the reasons for our success as a species.

We have both canine teeth and molars. Anthropological studies have shown that previous societies that were hunter/gatherers and lived mainly on meat (rather than agriculutural grains) were stronger, healthier and taller than societies that became agricultural.

The addition of processed cane sugar (which is not natural to ANYONE's) began the current trend towards heart disease, obesity and diabetes. Both vegetarians and meat-eaters that eat a lot of process cane sugar are going to experience these health problems.

I think that we need to remember that we too have a place in nature. We don't despise the lion for doing what comes naturally and hunting. We don't despise dogs or wolves for their diet. Granted, they are not capable (as far as we know) of making a moral choice - but they are eating the diet that they evolved to eat. They are part of nature, and so are we. We are omnivores - both predator and prey (when unlucky).

We need to learn to respect our place on the food chain. And we need to be respectful of the animals that we do eat. We need to treat them like fellow creatures. Those that we take eggs and milk from we should care for and cherish, and care for so that we aren't a burden to them. We need to only kill when we need to eat and what we need to eat. We need to be thankful to their spirits, and respectful of their sacrifice, and not take it for granted and not take advantage of it. Not kill indiscriminately, needlessly or painfully. And certainly allow them to live a natural life before hand.

I believe in the tenants of vegetanarism in that one should avoid causing needless pain and suffering. But I don't want to see people losing touch with what they really are - intelligent animals filled with divine spirit. We need to be respectful of our place in nature, and respectful and mindful of what we destroy to survive, and that for our own inner peace and self-respect we need to be kind and to end the commercialization of ALL living beings. Like I have said in an earlier post, we even do that to ourselves, reducing ourselves to "commodities" in the corporate world. We need to treat all living beings with more respect than that - even with enough respect to allow that the creature must follow it's natural diet to thrive.

Those of us who do eat meat need to recognize our dependence on animals and what they give up for us and show respect and gratitude. Those of us who can thrive without meat because they love animals also need to learn to love the human animals.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Fawn
 
Fawnmarie, thats a very nice belief. (Not being sarcastic if you can't tell) Just wondering why you think "we are not natural vegatarians". Just because our species didn't begin that way doesn't mean its unnatural to change. Is that all you meant, that we didn't start that way? I'd agree there. I think an animal would prefer not to have to make the sacrafice of dieing for me to eat it. If I needed it to live, I would probably sacrafice its life and be thankful for that, but I don't see why I'd need to do that.

What do you mean by taking ourselves out of nature? Some animals in nature are herbivores, right? I don't understand why you say "we are not natural vegetarians, we have evolved into omnivores". Can't we choose to continue that evolution into being herbivores (not in anyway saying herbivores are more or less evolved than carnivores and omnivores). Are you saying omnivores are more evolved than herbivores? If so why?

I think the civilizations where meat eaters were stronger then the vegetarians is outdated. More time has gone by and people have done research that shows us how to replace the nutrion that comes from meat with non meat nutrition.

Like you said its natural for a lion to eat meat. What makes it natural for us to eat meat? Just because our species has in the past? Canine teeth doesn't mean its unnatural to only eat vegetables.

Our brains becoming larger is something that naturally happened through evolution. We are the animals at this point, best suited for survival in the current world. Our thought has made that possible. We discover new things to improve the quality of life. Why is it unnatural to change to vegetarianism?

I guess my main question for you is, what makes something unnatural?
 
2boar2sow,

Here's a good article summarizing what is currently known about the effects of diet on human evolution:
(broken link removed)

We did in fact, start out that way - as vegetarians - and as we evolved we began to scavage for meat and then hunt meat. The increase of calorie-rich food as well as the necessity to learn new skills to hunt catalyzed our evolution into large brained, tool-using, group-living creatures with a language.

However, this doesn't mean that people should not be vegetarians if they wish too and can thrive on that diet. It just means that it may not be particularly 'natural' or sustaining for all people.

There is a very interesting theory put forth by Dr. Peter Adamo that different blood type groups thrive on different diets. He tracks the evolution of humans and compares the natural diet of people during the stage any particular blood group evolved. (Blood type and diet was determined through testing of teeth, bone, remains, artifacts, etc.)

For example, the earliest humans were all of the blood group 'O'. They were hunter/gatherers, chasing meat and living off of aboveground plants and fruits. As humans migrated towards Asia and developed an agricultural lifestyle, the blood group 'A' evolved. Then some of these humans migrated towards Europe and became nomadic, and the 'B' blood group evolved, and then the AB Group.

The theory states (and he seems to back it up with laboratory evidence), that humans of different blood types should be eating foods natural to that particular step in evolution. For example, I am an 'O' blood type (common as dirt) and am best off eating a "hunter/gatherer" diet. This doesn't actually preclude vegetaranism, though it does preclude veganism. Anything that could be scrounged and eaten without processing or long-term time investment by our neolithic ancestors should be wholesome for me, including meat, eggs, nuts, fruits, vegetables, small amounts of tubers, etc. There is a whole list in his material. Foods that require cultivation or multi-step processing (i.e. more than just cooking) are not healthy for 'O' types. Animal products that require cultivation should not be eaten by 'O' types (like pigs, milk, etc.)

On the other hand, 'A' blood types do best on agricultural diets like grains, legumes, more tubers, etc., and if they eat meat 'domesticated' animal products such as chickens and pigs, milk and cheese.

'B' group does best on small game animals and retains the ability to eat grains and legumes.

I'm not promoting this theory, but I do find it very interesting.

What I mean by natural is that humans have been, for many tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of years, part of the predator class of animals. We have evolved to eat meat. Animals do not eat things naturally that will not sustain them. Rabbits don't make a moral choice to eat only vegetables - they cannot eat meat. It does not tempt them or signal anything in their brain that causes them to start feeding. Same with cats, almost strict carnivores - although they will play with a grape, nothing about a grape signals them to chow down.

Many humans are signaled strongly to eat when presented with meat. It is natural for those humans to eat it. NOT eating meat can be a moral victory over our animal nature. It is to be respected and honored. This mastery over our nature is what makes humans so interesting. Much like nuns and monks who do not indulge in sex. Sex and reproduction is natural behavior for all living creatures. It is a moral victory for them to not to sucumb to the temptation. It is a celebration of and an exercise towards true spirit and divinity. It is a good thing - a desire to be more noble than our origins.

However, lay people are not required to be celibate, though spiritual lay people may try to be moderate with sexual behavior and be respectful and thankful of it and their partner and recognize it's power over them and the power of mother nature's imperative to reproduce. They do not abuse it, but revere it's power and be thankful for it's part in our happiness and fulfillment.

It's the same way I feel about eating meat - to be respectful and aware of power of nature and it's control over us. To be respectful and thankful for the animals that feed us - and the part that they play in our health and survival. And to care for them - to allow them full lives in nature while they are alive. To pay them back for it - to care for their offspring, to protect them from other predators, to feed them and shelter them. Not to over indulge or do it recklessly and thoughtless, painfully and greedily. And yes - sometimes we feel the need to have control over nature. It's a personal choice and a moral decision. But not entirely a sentence to hell to fill one's place in nature - thoughtfully, mindfully, and with gratitude.

Both are valid viewpoints. Both are valid lifestyles. Human beings are complicated.

As being part of nature - I mean this - humans have been predators for many hundreds of thousands of years. We have as natural a part and place in the ecology of the world as do the wolves and the dogs that hunt and to think otherwise is arrogant. To think we are "above" nature or outside of it and to take the role of masters of nature is arrogant. Although our better nature may inspire us to be masters of our baser nature, to deny that we are part and parcel of the worlds ecology is the kind of dangerous thinking that makes humans think that as creatures above the design, we can take and do and kill and exploit any damn thing we want. Thinking we are "God's chosen species" has led to the extinction of more animals than eating them ever did.

Those of us who try to be spiritual or moral need to be respectful of nature's powerful hold over us. When you take a predator out of an ecology can be as devasting to that ecology as taking prey out of an ecology, or an important scavanger. What will happen to the ecology if vegetarianism becomes the world-wide standard? What prey animals will overproduce as a result? What plant species will become devastated when the prey animal population explodes? Will we then, as vegetarians, have to compete with other herbivores for plant food? Would we then just kill them off through competition (after all we have tools and are more adaptable) just as easily as if we killed them for food? Would we not destroy just as many of our fellow creatures by destroying their habitats by the need to increase farm lands?

It's a lovely ideal not to kill and eat other creatures - a moral victory. Please remember though that killing and eating other creatures is what allowed us to develop into the kind of animals that can make moral decisions in the first place.

I do have to say that the most intelligent piece of perspective I've ever heard on animal-rights activists was by Dennis Miller:

"When did minks become more important than people? I've watched individuals in New York City step over fellow human beings laying in their own piss to spit on somebody who's wearing chinchilla."

And I reiterate my original statement - human beings need to be more respectful and compassionate to ALL living beings - those that are eaten, those that hunt, and yes - even other human beings - and acknowledge and respect each living beings place and purpose in the world. There are no easy answers, except that moderation and mindfulness is the only way to find any of them.

Just my thoughts.

Fawn
 
Did Dr. Peter Adamo write that Eating for Your Bloodtype book? I glanced through it once. Someone told me they heard A was a good bloodtype for vegetarians and I'm A+ so yay.

I guess I'd have to disagree that because we have been doing something for any length of time it makes it natural and that its unnatural to change that. I bet you for the majority of those 10's of thousands of years that people were eating meat, they were not also revering it, treating animals as well as you propose we should.

My personal view of nature is that nothing is unnatural to my own knowledge. If something happens it is because of events that happened throughout nature. I guess that is how I view the word with the nature linked to it. Natural can also be synomonous with common or usual, in which case many things are not natural, but don't always have to be. That being said, I think humans can make decisions which have a negative impact on, well, anything. But I wouldn't say the person is going against their nature when they make it.

Just because humans desire meat does not make it natural. You mentioned how humans lived long without sugar cane and how unhealthy it is for us. Yet I'd say many humans desire to eat sweet things more than they do meat. The humans whose bodies enjoy eating fatty and sugary foods have survived, because in the recent past ( not long ago enough for evolution to have changed this aspect of our biology by now) fatty and sugary foods were important to our health. Also I propose that the reason we like to eat meat is because of social engineering, or in less conspircal terms, learned psychological behavior. People, not all people just several people I've heard, who have been raised to be vegetarians from birth have showed disgust in meat, it not being a desire at all. I believe Kalrik mentioned this was her case.

Once again, I think the main thing we'd disagree on is just what is unnatural.
 
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