Amazon.com lawsuit

[rachieanne99]

Hello everyone-

I came across this article in my local paper today.

https://www.startribune.com/484/story/561678.html

In case the link does not work, it is basically about how the Humane Society is threatening to sue Amazon.com for selling cockfighting magazines, stating they are violating the Animal Welfare Act.

I had no idea such magazines even existed. I can't even imagine the type of person who would subscribe to this trash.

What do you guys thing about all this? Does this cross the line of "free speech?"

 

[diane]

I think when free speech is violating an other law than it should limited. Like there was this case in Michigan (I think it was Michigan) where this guy was in a row boat and had spilled his drink (his beer) all down himself. He jumped and started cussing up a storm. This happened at the exact same moment a women with her young child walked by. The first citation he was handed was for his profanity in public in front of a minor.

And there are a few more problems involved with cockfighting. It promotes gambling which is illegal in most places and drug use is usually rampant at cock fighting.

 

[Sabriel]

I feel this is crossing the line a wee bit. Yes cockfighting is horrible and I wish it didn't happen, but I do not agree with restricting one's right to read about something I abhor.

I feel that this could lead to peaceful materials being restricted becuase it offends someone. Yoga offends some people. Vegetarianism offends some people. Meditation offends some people. Yet these are all awesome things to do or study. And they are all peaceful practices.

On the flip side, I do not like cook books that include meat dishes. I'm not a big fan of any Conservative Party leader's biographies. I strongly dislike country music. But I do not wish my local book store would stop selling these items. No one is making me buy or look at them.

If you don't want to support it the answer is simple, don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it the publication will fold anyway. Giving it more attention however, will be the best advertising it has ever received.

Another point to consider is that Amazon.com sells things to people outside of America. I live in Canada, but I have ordered from Amazon.com and Amazon.co.jp (Japan). Why? Because Amazon.ca (Canada) does not always have what I need, nor do they always have the best price. Amazon.com has the most products. I would also think it would serve areas not big enough to have their own version of Amazon.

So altough cockfighting may be illegal in America it is most likely legal elsewhere. Amazon does have the right to sell such items to people in those parts of the world.

Does it suck, sure does! Is it lawsuit worthy, I don't feel it is.

Edit: It is also not illegal to speak about illegal acts. If it was the whole entertainment industry would implode on itself. Ocean's 11 and Ocean's 12 anyone?

 

[fairysari]

I don't think it really matters if writing about cockfighting is protected by free speech or not. I just think that this Humane Society spending its funds on legal fees for suing Amazon. The best it can do I think is raise awareness, by people like us reading articles about it, but I don;t think it is a very effective use of their resources.

Wouldn't their resources be better spent trying to actually rescue animals, than some lawsuit? Even building building some sort of enclosure so that they can go and rescue birds from cockfights.

I don't know, maybe someone is donating their time for this, but it didn't say anything about it in the article. I think just threatening a lawsuit and getting press coverage but not actually suing is a better idea than going through with it.

 

[CavySpirit]

I totally disagree.

Wouldn't their resources be better spent trying to actually rescue animals, than some lawsuit?

Absolutely not. No way.

First of all, the HSUS is primarily a lobbying organization trying to effect change in the system. Lawsuits and lobbying is what it takes.

Many, many corporations have policies that follow ethical and moral guidelines. I don't think you'll find Amazon.com peddling porn. Same damn difference to me. If Amazon has to spend legal and PR money to fight to keep the stupid magazine for sale, don't you think that they will evaluate the profitability of that decision and future decisions? Heck yes, they will. As will others, like Barnes and Noble, etc. etc. etc.........

I say, sue away.

 

[Susan9608]

I

say, sue away.

Me, too - particularly since Amazon was going to publish that awful "Save Toby" book.

 

[fairysari]

I didn't realize that the HSUS is primarily a lobby group. I guess I should have looked into it more. When I hear humane society this is what comes to mind :https://www.torontohumanesociety.com/ . But you are right, if they are a lobby group then lawsuits is part of how they get things done.

What is the Save Toby book?

 

[Susan9608]

It's this horrible book that was written by these horrible people. See www.toby.com. This guy made this site, saying that if he didn't get so much money in "donations" he was going to kill and eat his pet rabbit. A bunch of people complained to PayPal (including people from our site!) and got the guy's PayPal account shut down. PayPal then contacted a lot of other internet based money accounts, making it impossible for the guy to collect cash. So he decided to write a "book" which is like a cookbook, and Amazon.com was going to sell it and maybe also publish it, I can't remember. It was a really sick, emotionally manipulative, fraudulent story.

 

[standuprookie]

Susan, dont you mean (broken link removed) I remember hearing about but never went to the site, I tried your link and when it wasnt right I added save to it.
There is something wrong with that guy.

 

[Susan9608]

Oops - you're right. My link was wrong. It's (broken link removed).

It's pretty sick, all right.

 

[Sabriel]

Amazon does sell porn. But just like the cockfighting magazine you have to do some looking to find it.

I think the time, energy and money should first be spent on getting the practice banned in all the states. 2 states still do not have laws banning it. This lawsuit will never fly once that it presented in court. Amazon will just take the position that since it is legal in some states they still have a right to serve those states.

But beyond that, I am still against letting people read what they wish. Reading about something and doing something are two totally different things. Many of us watch movies with crimes in them, do we go out and commit them? Probably not.

I feel that taking this magazine off of Amazon will leave the door wide open to for people to have legitimate publications taken off the shelves too. Amazon sells a lot of things that insult the sensibilities of the more conservative population of America. If this door is opened then you may well see PETA friendly publications pulled off the shelf, since we all know how well liked PETA is.

If this was about banning people from actually participating in cockfighting, I'd be right there with you, donnating money and signing petitions. But I will not stand by and support someone who wants to take away the right to read about something.

Would you ban all cooks books that feature meat dishes? I am sure the meat industry kills a ton more animals then the cockfighting industry does.

 

[VoodooJoint]

Living in the only U.S. State where cockfighting is still legal (New Mexico keeps going back and forth) and being one of the people fighting to get the laws changed I wholeheartedly agree to any lawsuit taken against anything that supports this barbaric sport.

I have spent large amounts of time on the Cockfighters' forums gathering information to pass onto law enforcement. I have traked down Cockfights in my own neighborhood and called the police to have them busted up.

It's a cruel and pitiless blood sport which must be brought to an end and if a lawsuit raises punlic awareness and helps lead to it's termination you can count me in.

The HSUS is also trying to get the US Postal service to stop mailing Cockfighting magazines.

Did you know it is also legal to ship a Rooster (or any poultry) overnight in a regular USPS Express Mail box?

(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)

 

[Sabriel]

That poultry shipping law is also used by the meat industry. I would think they use it a whole lot more to trade around good males. You only really need one male per barn full of females.

I still stand by the banning this magazine is opening a Pandora's Box that none of us want opened. I think we should get the fighting banned first, then even see if there is a demand for such magazines. The magazines could fold after a ban on fights.

At the very least it would make the lawsuit more sound. At this point there is very little hope for it given it is legal somewhere in America.

 

[spoonyspork]

I totally disagree.

Wouldn't their resources be better spent trying to actually rescue animals, than some lawsuit?

Absolutely not. No way.

First of all, the HSUS is primarily a lobbying organization trying to effect change in the system. Lawsuits and lobbying is what it takes.

Many, many corporations have policies that follow ethical and moral guidelines. I don't think you'll find Amazon.com peddling porn. Same damn difference to me. If Amazon has to spend legal and PR money to fight to keep the stupid magazine for sale, don't you think that they will evaluate the profitability of that decision and future decisions? Heck yes, they will. As will others, like Barnes and Noble, etc. etc. etc.........

I say, sue away.

Eer... no, they don't sell porn. But they sell worse - 'toys'. At least, they used to. My friend was looking for geeky gadgets, ran across them, and felt it'd be funny to link me to them. Bleh. This was over a year ago though, so it might have been some sort of fluke that let them briefly sneak them in. 'fraid I'm not doing any searches to confirm

As for suing *shrug* let 'em try. It's a bit of a slippery slope in both directions. Sue them and win, it might make other not-so-bad-but-still-iffy things be taken away, encroaching on our free speech, etc. Sue them and lose, it might make things like child-porn magazines crop up, since 'it's legal in other countries!'.

Of course, now that it's become an issue, if they *don't* sue, the latter will likely happen anyway.

Personally, since it's a lose-lose sittuation now anyway, I'd sue them not just to stop the magazine sales, but also for the names of people who've subscribed to the magazine, as they're likely engaging in cruel and illegal activity... but then, we're going down a whole 'nother slippery slope in that case.

 

[CavySpirit]

At this point there is very little hope for it given it is legal somewhere in America.

I think your logic is twisted. I would say, there is a GREAT possibility given that it is ILLEGAL in almost every state in the US except the great progressive state of LA. (Sorry, VJ.)

And social change does not happen in a vacuum of legislation. It's a multi-pronged approach that works. This is one of them. And that Pandora's box was opened a hell of a long time ago. This is nothing new. This helps get to corporate profits, supply and demand, awareness of issue and removing awareness and proliferation of the 'sport' if distribution of the magazine can be reduced.

And even if this case isn't won, it's a new profit warning to other companies and other similar decisions.

 

[Sabriel]

Well they sell Playboy in the "Men's Intrests". That's porn enough for me. Even more comparable, it's in magazine form.

If they drop the lawsuit nothing will happen either way. They can't use precident of a dropped lawsuit to fanagle something even worse in. You never know why the lawsuit is dropped. They could have dropped it for lack of funds for all the courts know. It takes a ruling to set a precident.

Edit: I would argue that the pandora's box is very sealed. Many things that a good portion of America wants to go away can still have thriving publications. Not every minority is something bad. I feel that by taking the right away from this minority you will be paving the road to take it away from others.

 

[VoodooJoint]

there is a GREAT possibility given that it is ILLEGAL in almost every state in the US except the great progressive state of LA. (Sorry, VJ.)

No problem. I don't live in Louisiana. I live in New Orleans. There is a BIG differance.

 

[CavySpirit]

Edit: I would argue that the pandora's box is very sealed. Many things that a good portion of America wants to go away can still have thriving publications.

You've got to be kidding me. The pandora's box is the lawsuit. You really want me to go find a list of lawsuits for you that are similar and more extreme? And this isn't about the fact that you can't HAVE the publication, it's about Amazon distributing it.

 

[Percy's Mom]

True. New Orleans is it's own special little world. It's just tacked onto LA because they haven't figured out how to make it its own planet yet.

 

[CavySpirit]

From the Article (emphasis mine):

The Humane Society sent a letter Tuesday to the retailer, detailing its intention to begin legal action unless the magazines — "The Feathered Warrior'' and "The Gamecock'' — are removed immediately from the site. Both are mailed from western Arkansas.


The group cited the Animal Welfare Act, which says it is unlawful to use the "mail service or the U.S. Postal Service'' to promote "an animal-fighting venture except as performed outside the States of the United States.''


"That's their claim, and we don't agree with their claim, so we're going to continue to make these titles available,'' Amazon.com spokeswoman Patty Smith said Tuesday. "It's up to the customer to determine what they feel is appropriate for them to purchase.''


Cockfighting is legal in Louisiana and New Mexico; Arkansas is among 48 states that ban the practice.

In April, The Humane Society asked that the postal service stop allowing the magazines to be sent through the mail, citing the act and postal regulations. Last year, the group asked Amazon.com to stop selling the magazines, but did not get a response.


The Humane Society's Ann Chynoweth said it would be difficult to stop a magazine from being published — but her group hopes to slow circulation when possible.

Last month, Amazon.com said it would pull a DVD featuring violent pit bull fights that unleashed protests against the distributor and several online merchants that had been peddling the video.


Verna Dowd, editor of "The Feathered Warrior,'' said she wasn't too concerned about The Humane Society's threatened lawsuit.


"I don't know anything about it,'' she said. "I didn't even know they posted my magazine on Amazon.''

Also, HSUS does plenty in other ways to get this stopped:

(broken link removed)

(broken link removed)