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Amazon.com lawsuit

Sabriel said:
If they drop the lawsuit nothing will happen either way. They can't use precident of a dropped lawsuit to fanagle something even worse in. You never know why the lawsuit is dropped. They could have dropped it for lack of funds for all the courts know. It takes a ruling to set a precident.
I'm not sure if this is referring to what I said, but what I was trying to say I guess is that public awareness is half the battle. When I was a little younger and living in a big city, I was quite politically active, and was part of a coalition that organized a lot of different political actions (guest speakers, protests, there was even an overnight camp-out in front of a consulate), and I know that our goal was always primarily to make people aware of the problems we were addressing. If we got media coverage, that was one of our best indicators of success. Maybe the same frame of thinking doesn't exactly apply here, I just think that since they've already begun to get media coverage, they are already raising awareness, and that's half the battle. (I feel like GI Joe "Knowing is half the battle!") Maybe by reading about the potential lawsuit, people would would have bought the magazine will not, because they are afraid of getting tangles up in the law. Maybe they didn't know it was illegal to order such a magazine, and won't buy it now that they are aware. It's baby steps, but it's still something. Or maybe Amazon will stop selling it before it even gets to a lawsuit.
 
Yes and I own a good many publications that people would love to see banned off of Amazon. And if it weren't for the board's religion rule I'd name names and I'd probably seem a little less crazy.

If it weren't for the fact that Amazon Canada doesn't carry even half the things Amazon.com does I wouldn't care. But unfortunatly America is where most books are published and sold. And I really do not like the idea of current social attitudes in America dictating what I can and cannot read.

And I hate to break it to you, but if you can't find it, you can't buy it. Period. There are a great many books, dvds and cds I'd love to add to my various collection, but if no one sells them, then I'm SOL. And given that HSUS wants the US Postal Service to stop mailing it, they don't want anyone selling it. If you can't mail it, you can't ship it.

This is bigger then this one magazine. This has the potential to snow ball, especially given how lawsuit happy America is right now. I feel this is an irresponsible avanue to use when others are available. I feel that this treads to much on the rights of others and there is too much potential to harm innocents with this lawsuit.

I feel this is more radical then anything PETA has every tried to do. Awarness is one thing, but this is not about awareness. This is about controling what people can read.
 
VJ---My husband works for the USPS and has seen some awful, really terrable things come through the mail. Chickens are sent all the time and he said they are literally gross, many died, eatting the others, walking all over one another, no food, no water. On the box it says "FRAGILE LIVE ANIMALS INSIDE".

As far as this whole topic goes I see what T is saying, although I am having a hard time seeing "that side". I am sure you have done more research on the topic than myself and maybe that is why you are able to view it the way you are.

For myself, I think as much as everyone would like to believe the world will someday "be the perfect place", and as much as many of us try, there are always going to be the people that still do "the crime". I fight for the animals, try to make as much of a difference as possible, give monthly to the Humane Society etc, but I do not agree with the lawsuit. It does anger me to know that my money is being spent on the lawsuit instead of helping the animals first hand. I am not saying the cock-fighting should not be stopped, I am saying that just like dog-fighting or any of those other "sports" people are going to do them, with or without a magazine.

Crime is so high, murder on the rise, and yet there are no magazines telling people "how-to's", they just do it. If people can do this awful things to their own children, or parents, and other loved ones, why is it so hard to believe someone can't watch two roosters fight?
 
I still stand by the banning this magazine is opening a Pandora's Box that none of us want opened. I think we should get the fighting banned first, then even see if there is a demand for such magazines. The magazines could fold after a ban on fights.

But it is illegal everywhere else in the US. So, maybe until such time as it is also illegal in LA, they should be allowed to ship to that one state and perhaps overseas to countries where it is not illegal.

The magazines promote an illegal practice. That is at the heart of the issue. Other practices you listed may be offensive to some, but they are not illegal, nor do they hurt anyone or anything else, such as with meditation, or yoga, or being a vegetarian. If you choose not to participate, then by all means, don't. However, these magazines on Cockfighting do support a practice that is not only offensive, but HURTS animals and is illegal, in all but 1 state.

To me, it is not much of a slippery slope, there is a pretty solid line between animal cruelty and having ones sensibilities "offended".

However, I would like to know, is selling propaganda that supports the fights illegal in these other states? Because if it isn't, then that is what they need to work on first, getting the laws changed to prohibit the sale of these magazines.

In Canada, Child Porn is illegal to make, sell or possess (although a few judges have been messing around with it, and common law seems to be all over the place :()

These laws where passed because the freedom of speech did not supersede the rights of the child.

Similarly, it is not illegal to possess or even sell drug paraphanalia. Bongs and hydroponic set ups, and all sorts of pipes are not illegal. A magazine depicting how to make or grow your own drugs would not be either.

This decision was made because the risk to others freedoms being infringed on was decided I suppose to be minimal. The most damage done will likely be to the reader.

So, I think that is at the heart of the issue, what are the laws in relation to magazines and paraphanalia that deal with cock fights. In many states for example, it is not illegal to own a cock fighting bird, you just can't make it fight outside of LA!
 
C&K said:
I would like to know, is selling propaganda that supports the fights illegal in these other states? Because if it isn't, then that is what they need to work on first, getting the laws changed to prohibit the sale of these magazines.
In most of the states where Cockfighting is illegal it is also illegal to own cockfighting paraphernalia sich as the knives, gaffs, weighing equipment, medical supplies, rings, comb and wattle trimming equipment, etc.

In most of these states I can own a Gamecock without breaking the law but if I fight it or own any paraphernalia then I can get arrested.

I currently have a few sets of cockfighting knives and gaffs. Nasty, horrid things. I can legally own then in Louisiana but if I got caught with them out of state I could be arrested. If ever I move I will have to get a special permit to own them as they are now used for educational purposes.
 
If this was an Canadian lawsuit C&K, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. If America had a similar law system I wouldn't have a problem with it either. But America's law system has been kinda wacky the past few years. The First Amendment is becomming fuzzy in light of majority vs. minority issues.

This is an issue I follow on a daily basis along with animal rights issues.

In light of the current make up of the American Supreme court and the fact the George Bush is still in power, I do worry about cases like this.

If perhaps, but the time this lawsuit is finished a new leadership comes into power I may worry less.
 
In most of the states where Cockfighting is illegal it is also illegal to own cockfighting paraphernalia sich as the knives, gaffs, weighing equipment, medical supplies, rings, comb and wattle trimming equipment, etc.

In most of these states I can own a Gamecock without breaking the law but if I fight it or own any paraphernalia then I can get arrested.

Thank you, somehow I missed T's post about it being against the law to use the mail for this stuff, so I hope that with some legislation behind them, they can get something done about it!

But America's law system has been kinda wacky the past few years. The First Amendment is becomming fuzzy in light of majority vs. minority issues.

I can appreciate that, however when you throw in a dose of "cruelty" with the minority, well, I think it is different all over again. The humane society is not doing this because it is "offensive" but to stop cruelty. I just can't argue against that.

Bush won't be around much longer. Lets hope the next government formed is better.
 
This is one of those unfortunate cases where 2 things I'm fighting for clash.

I do wish that cruelty would be the defining factor, but unfortunatly I'm am following a case where prejudice is the deciding factor.

That case is also contemplating a lawsuit but is taking the time to decide if a lawsuit is in the best intrest of the community and other innocent communities. Lawsuits are great for helping yourself but they have the affect of harming others.

If things in America can turn around I might support this, but in the current climate it is very dangerous. I am worried that with out own election of someone very much like Bush, we will not see a change in American politics. If Canada can elect someone like Harper there is little hope.
 
The lawsuit is an argument that Amazon is BREAKING THE LAWS already in existence. This is not about them squelching free speech.

And I really do not like the idea of current social attitudes in America dictating what I can and cannot read.

That's been going on since the beginning of this country's history. It's nothing new. The push and pull of right vs. left is never going to change. Viva la difference.

And I hate to break it to you, but if you can't find it, you can't buy it. Period. There are a great many books, dvds and cds I'd love to add to my various collection, but if no one sells them, then I'm SOL. And given that HSUS wants the US Postal Service to stop mailing it, they don't want anyone selling it. If you can't mail it, you can't ship it.

You hate to break it to me? Hello? Duh. Doesn't change the fact that Amazon is breaking the (our, as in US) LAW.

This has the potential to snow ball, especially given how lawsuit happy America is right now.

Um, maybe you are just realizing it, but America has been lawsuit happy for a heck of a long time. It's part of the system. You don't ignore it if you want to effect change. You use it. Period.

I feel this is more radical then anything PETA has every tried to do.

Oh give me a break.

give monthly to the Humane Society etc, but I do not agree with the lawsuit. It does anger me to know that my money is being spent on the lawsuit instead of helping the animals first hand.

Weaver, I think you must be under the mistaken impression that the HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) is the same, but national organization of your local Humane Societies. If you are giving monthly to the HSUS, I would expect you would know this. If you are giving monthly to your local SPCA or Humane Society, they have nothing directly to do with the HSUS.

This is from the About Us page of the HSUS:

The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has worked since 1954 to promote the protection of all animals. With nearly ten million members and constituents, The HSUS is the nation’s largest and most powerful animal protection organization, working in the United States and abroad to defend the interests of animals. We celebrate the human-animal bond, and we fight animal cruelty and abuse in all of its forms.

We work to reduce suffering and to create meaningful social change for animals by advocating for public policies to protect animals, investigating cruelty and working to enforce existing laws, educating the public about the issues, and conducting hands-on programs, such as assisting animals when disasters strike. Our major campaigns target four primary issues: 1) factory farming, 2) animal fighting and other forms of animal cruelty, 3) the fur trade, and 4) inhumane sport hunting practices.

Our other campaigns take on puppy mills, the private ownership of exotic animals as pets, greyhound racing, and particularly unacceptable animal research and testing practices, such as the use of great apes in research. Our two signature programs—Pets for Life and Wild Neighbors—celebrate the benefits of the bond between people and animals who live with us or in our communities, and teach people how to solve human/animal conflicts humanely. And we provide direct care for thousands of animals at our sanctuaries, wildlife rehabilitation centers, and mobile veterinary clinics.

Throughout this site you can learn more about The HSUS and how you can support our work. A humane society starts with you.
 
But is it illegal to sell publications that talk about the fights if it is legal to have fights in Louisianna? How can the federal law be applied to something that is being decided on a state to state basis?

I very much doubt Amazon would sell something it could not. If that was true they would not need a lawsuit to stop it. It would be a criminal case not a tort.

If this was about Amazon selling something illegal or if this was a letter writting campain then I'd support this. I just think this is being done in a way more likely to hurt others.

I feel that this could be stopped without a lawsuit. Then again I feel a lot of things then be solved without a lawsuit.

Um, maybe you are just realizing it, but America has been lawsuit happy for a heck of a long time. It's part of the system. You don't ignore it if you want to effect change. You use it. Period.

So it's OK to use a corupt system to get what you want, no matter the cost? That doesn't sit well with my morality. I am sure that I'm not alone.

Obviously I'm not going to change any minds here. I'm sticking to my position that I do not agree with this action and am quietly bowing out of the argument.
 
So it's OK to use a corupt system to get what you want, no matter the cost? That doesn't sit well with my morality. I am sure that I'm not alone.

How do you think the laws get made in the first place? Maybe that's why you live in Canada? If you dismiss our system as corrupt, why bother having a position on any of our laws, policies or whatever? I don't believe our system is corrupt. Are there a lot of problems with it? Most definitely.

But is it illegal to sell publications that talk about the fights if it is legal to have fights in Louisianna? How can the federal law be applied to something that is being decided on a state to state basis?

I think the answers to these questions are pretty obvious. Because federal law supercedes state law. US Postal code is federal.

I very much doubt Amazon would sell something it could not. If that was true they would not need a lawsuit to stop it. It would be a criminal case not a tort.

That's a ton of assumptions and supposition that don't fly.
 
Thank you Teresa for clarifing that there are two different Humane Societies. I never knew that, had heard of "both", but thought they were one in the same.
 
This lawsuit is going to be one of those ongoing battles. Like with Roe v. Wade. I can't remember which state it is but they are trying to reverse it. I might not agree with abortion myself, but I do want other people to have that choice for themselves. I can't remember who stated this about just because they read about it doesn't mean they act on it. I do agree that I am afraid it will snowball and effect to many other areas because there is always going to be somebody who doesn't like the views of others.
 
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