Veg*n What can stop this!!!?

[mncavylover]

when you can show me scientific proof that animals can tell how they are being treated is bad or have feelings then you can talk to me. Until then i will eat as much steak and ribs as i like. If your whole life has been pain its not really pain. If everyday you were beat up by your parents, you'd get used to it, you wouldnt notice it anymore. Thats what i mean. Im trying to be mature because im not going to change your views and your not going to change mine in cas e you didnt know thats what agree to disagree means.

*mouth open in shock*

It's not enough that they bleed, scream, want to get away? Just because their lives right now are torture means you can sit there and not care, just because they're "used to it"? Does that fact make it morally better? If so, how? Why? I'm afraid that was way over the line. I don't even know how to respons so I'm ending here.

 

[kavykritter]

I would say that everybody who is against the current practices go veggie, those who don't care, don't, but don't try to FORCE your views on everbody else (ie saying the government should require vegetarianism, although requiring humane killing would be good, in my opinion)

 

[John4216]

Wow dagwell that is awful to say...If you got beatup everyday by your parents you'd get used to it?? If your whole life has been pain than its not really pain? Wow that is just way beyond anything I can even think of how to respond other than to say that is a very naive,ignorant, and either immature or criminal statement. And yes there is proof that animals have feelings/thoughts of varying degree's depending on the animal in question. I am not going to be a vegatarian because of this though I do support humane raising/killing of animals...I do so because I am not an herbivore nor are humans intended to be herbivores. I support anyone that wishes to be one and support anyone who does not. My last job was as a sexual offender treatment specialist and if a person I was working with made a statement like you did (and some did) they would not be getting released for a long time or would be revoked back to prison...I feel sorry for feedlot animals, calves and how they are treated and so on and support changing it because I have so sympathy for the animals and empathy as well. I am hoping since your only 15 that you kinda just flew off the handle and didnt really think about what you were saying before you said it.

 

[John4216]

Acck I didn't finish the post before I submitted it .....

Anyway if you follow science then science does say we started (our ancestors loooong ago) as herbivores and then we added small amounts of meat to our diets and the theory is that when this happened it is what allowed our brains to expand and grow larger...we as a species and other branch subspecies have been consuming meat for hundreds of thousands of years and only now we can begin to discuss (in areas that are not poverty stricken) not doing so...

I think that just the horrible way these animals are treated and killed is bad enough to merit discussion in its own right but I also am hopeful that this can be solved by science...Science you say??? This sounds corny but when (I say when not if) we perfect something along the lines of a replicator (think star trek) we will change the entire world and structure of it. Animal and grain farms (most) can have many damaging effects on the ecosystem as a whole in many various ways. (Plus their is some research showing plants might have some form of sentience as well). I an a person who does consume meat and I wont deny it. I try to avoid some things like veal but I know it doesnt help the other animals (i.e. chickens, turkeys, pigs, cows) that I consume. At the same time I am hopeful that we can fix this as I not only enjoy meat but I also am against the way it gets to me. We are at a point in human existence where we can soon fix the major woes of the world that we ourselves have caused...or....we can break it all beyond repair...I am hopeful that science will come through and the good people in the world will come through with these sort of inventions...We have already teleported an object in a science lab and that was just 10 years ago supposed to be impossible....we get rid of the need for ALL farms be it meat or grains and the ecosystem along with the entire strcuture of the world will change in ways beyond belief...this can happen in the next 50-100 years or less...the question is will it.

 

[Auzziefreak]

I hope i don't get banned for this or something, But i am a die hard meat eater, i've grown up in a family that has been hunting for generations...I've been to puru, i've eating guinea pig, it is a delicacy their, its a way of life. Not every animal that is butchered for food is abused.

I recently came to Canada on an exchange program, befor that, i was living in australia working at a meat works. And i can tell you right now, they do not abuse their cattle in any way whatsoever. I was in the "priming" part of the company, where i would tag cattle according to weight, sex, etc, and all our cows were in good shape, none of them were abused. They would live in a huge open feild and graze all day long until it was there turn to be humanely butchered. Meaning a quick bullet to the head. This caused no pain, and that animal was dead instantly..i do not see how this is abuse..I do agree that some organizations do abuse their animals, but probably not as many as you think, you just keep thinking about animals being killed for human consuption which has happend for years.

Bottom line, God made it this way, i'm not going to mess with it.

 

[Auzziefreak]

By the way, thats just my view, i am totaly open for discussion and by no means, am trying to upset anyone. =)

 

[kavykritter]

hey Auzziefreak, please do not bring religion into this, because there are alot of people on this forum, probably alot of us have different religious beleifs, starting with me, and we got really close to getting shut down because of an earlier religious debate on this thread.

P.S. this is just what i am talking about:

Bottom line, God made it this way, i'm not going to mess with it.

 

[kavykritter]

not trying to sound too much like a lecture or anything, and i disagree with you, but i do respect everybody's views, so i am not trying to totally bug you, but just a reminder to leave religion out of it.

 

[Emily F.]

I 100% agree with you Auzzie.

Very well said.

 

[Auzziefreak]

I 100% agree with you Auzzie.

Very well said.

Thanks!

Kavykritter, I didn't think about that first. It was my first post in this forum =) I stand corrected. However, still hold my same point of veiw.

 

[o0Ms Jenny0o]

This isn't supposed to be religious, it's just a fact.
Someone earlier said that there were two types of Christians, one who worships cows then eats them. Just wanted to say, Christians don't worship cows...
Christian:
Adjective
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
Noun
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Etymology
Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chr*sti*nus, from Chr*stus, Christ ; see Christ.

 

[Auzziefreak]

This isn't supposed to be religious, it's just a fact.
Someone earlier said that there were two types of Christians, one who worships cows then eats them. Just wanted to say, Christians don't worship cows...
Christian:
Adjective
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
Noun
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Etymology

amen!
Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chr*sti*nus, from Chr*stus, Christ ; see Christ.

 

[Auzziefreak]

amen to that!

 

[chrishall1979]

Auzzie,

You must have been at the only good cattle works in Australia. Apparently your government mis-informs you as well. I agree that a quick bullet is humane, and very acceptable. However you will find if you research it that the American Cattle Industry deemed the use of bullets or stunners to expensive at the cost of 1 cent per animal. They dont use guns on cows in the US. There are far more who do it inhumane than humanely. Look at the numbers and do some research.

Australia has some of the most lax cruelty laws in the civilized world. We are talking about the continent that wiped out the Tasmanian Tiger just in this past century. In the past 200 years over 17 creatures in Australia have become extinct. Including the Lesser Bilby, a few species of bandicoots to name a few. If you need proof of Aussie cruelty do a little search on the Australian wool industry. One of the cruelest in recent memory.

To Johns earlier message. It has been talked about many times in this forum. And being though you are a man of science I thought I'd point out to you that. Humans ARE INTENDED to be herbavores. If you just look at our physiology you'd see that. We are more matched with herbavores, than carnivores or omnivores. The fact that we can eat it, and do eat it, doesnt not mean we are or were intended to eat it.

On another note replicators would be cool. But I wouldn't count on it anytime soon. We also proved time travel several years ago. They had a vaccuum chamber with a proton in it. They accelerated it until it caught up and past itself. However when looking at these things. It was only one proton. Similar to the teleporter tests. Doing this with a single proton or atom is amazing enough. Trying to do that with an object made of billions upon billions of molecules is much farther off.

Chris

 

[John4216]

Correct on the proton chris but once you can do it and have done it, it comes much quicker, the hardest part is not the theory it is the actual doing...As for herbivores it is not scientific fact that we are intended to be herbivores. That is the one thing that irritates me is when things get revised to fit...I actually find it more noble that we are ominvores and are reaching a point where we can choose to not do so...and again if we were intended to be herbivores then we would be for hundereds of thousands of years...herbivores dont spontaneously change into non-herbivores. Wishing or thinking we should be doesn't change it that we are not and have not been since the dawn of time. And being more matched does not mean much....there are animals that are "closely matched" in nature that have little in common.

This does not mean in anyway that we can not be....nor does it mean in anyway that we should not be.....I feel it actually shows the character and empathy of the people more of the people who go this route and the nobility of their actions because they are going against their own biology because they wish to end the suffering of other living beings...

Anyways I am not here to debate it as I think this is a support forum and I should not really be debating this in here. I am a follower of science but more a follower of truth..truth is hard to find as it changes to fit the need of who is saying it so I try to make sure when I say something like what i have here that the research and general consensus of the scientific community agrees and on this point they do. That being said I 100% still support and agree with and am impressed with anyone who pursues this lifestyle.

I am curious about something though...vegetarian meaning no meat or no meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc??

When I was a teen I worked in an egg farm for a week before quitting and it was horrific. They had 500,000 chickens to a barn and well it was something I hope to never again see or experience...so to me being a vegetarian would mean no cheese, milk or eggs either because the animals are treated just as bad if not worse than ones used for food.

 

[chrishall1979]

Well early man did start out as an herbavore. Our bodies are designed to be herbavores. The long intestinal tract, the way our body breaks down foods, the fact we dont have multiple sets of canine teeth and they are mostly flat, among others. Being designed is the same as being intended. However once the food supply left we had to eat what was available. Our larger more capable brain allowed us to use tools to catch prey because we werent designed for that either. We had to scavenge to keep the human species alive. Somewhere it turned into a habit and not just a neccessity. I respect your opinion but being as though science tells you we evolved from primates....and primates are herbavores....we can assume that we are supposed to be too.

With that said I don't think meat-eaters are horrible people. It's a life choice, and I was one too. In answer to your question.... Vegetarian simple means no meat. No seafood, pork, chicken, beef or fish. A Vegan is one who also doesn't eat milk, egg, cheese, any animal biproduct. But in most cases you wont find either wearing leather, or fur.

This is an ok forum to have discussions like this. It's not a support group. haha That almost sounds like we need help. Most of us are ok!

Chris

 

[John4216]

Nice post chris except you kinda got a few things out of order .....Primates like chimpanzee's and others DO eat meat from time to time and our brains grew larger because we began eating meat and your also trying to compare our anatomy to a carnivores anatomy and we are not strict carnivores we are designed to be ominvores as a survival adaptation. Which also means that we dont absolutely 100% need meat to survive which in turn means we could survive without it. Nice discussion so far and I am still holding out for replicators

 

[Auzziefreak]

Ok..no offence, but i think that if we can't use our religion as part of our reasoning because it offends people, Then science and evolution shouldn't be allowed either, as it makes me upset that i cannot say "bottom line god made it that way, i'm not going to mess with it" but i've heard numerous statements supporting evolution..I'm not trying to pick a fight, but i don't think thats right.

 

[CavySpirit]

Saying something like "God made it that way" is as useful to a debate/discussion of issues as saying "it is what it is." Sorry if you don't think it's right, I will not allow religion in these discussions on this forum. If you want to start a general discussion of religion, then take it to general chat. You can start to tear each other apart on your personal belief systems over there. And as soon as it gets really ugly, I'll shut the thread down.

In the meantime, in the rest of the forums, stick to facts, yes, those that are scientifically debatable.

 

[Auzziefreak]

alright, use your "science" to debate.