Veg*n 30 Reasons to go Vegitarian

[thalestral]

So I guess it gets me a bit mad that you are implying by the comparison that I should have more feelings for a cavy than a pig. The first time someone accused me of being speciesist I realized I sort of was, and I guess I still am.

Speciesm involves assigning different values or rights to beings on the basis of their species membership. A non-speciest human does not value any one sentient species over another. It is almost impossible to be a true non-speciest, just as it is near impossible to be a true 100% vegan. These are ideals to be strived for. One life should be worth a life, because that is what we are talking about here. Lives.

I mean, where's the line? Bacteria? Invertebrates? You have to harm something to live- I feel that's sort of the way it goes. There are so many nutrients the human body simply can't make.

The line is drawn at sentient life, that life which can feel pain. The life that seeks to avoid death and wants to live, the life that understands what is happening to it. There are NO nutrients that the human body cannot make that only come from sentient life forms.

The line may be a little blurry at times due to the way the world works at the moment, but that doesn't mean that we can't clearly see what is on the avoidable side of the line. Mammals, birds, fish, amphibians, reptiles, and all avoidable invertebrates.

In fact, eating vegan already saves the lives of many invertebrates as so many times more insects die in the production of the crops for livestock animals to eat over crops grown directly for humans. Eating vegan is also the least taxing on plants themselves for this same reason.


We may have to harm some things in order to live, but that doesn't give us a pass to harm as many things as we like. Needing plant life to live doesn't give us the right to kill a cow. Cows are sentient animals, they feel pain, fear and love. They are social animals that communicate through a herd, mourn the loss of a loved one and cry out for their stolen calves. They suffer.

Anything that can suffer, I do not wish to harm. I will not harm. I will not cause needless suffering for the sake of my tastebuds.



The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? - Jeremy Bentham

 

[Alusdra]

Just to answer the Mad Cow confusion- cows get it from eating cow neural tissue (now illegal), sheep get the related disease ((broken link removed)) from eating sheep neural tissue, possibly deer also (chronic wasting). So- I won't eat something closely related to my genes neural tissue for fear of the same process. Monkeys can pass all sorts of disease onto humans besides that, too.

So bottom line here I suppose is that I'm just trying to not support the meat industry in a different way than most (local meat/animal products humanely collected/slaughtered). Also reverse of most, I guess is that to try not to be speciesist I make everything fair game, versus nothing (I think eventually we will probably see that bacteria can sense trauma and seek to avoid pain).

For the 30 reasons video, Earthlings and other PeTA or animal rights videos- or really anything that has a thesis- I feel that the argument is strengthened by acknowledging contradicting points of view, which rarely happens (if ever) with veg*n propaganda. I usually end up agreeing with you guys on the whole (eventually), but it takes me quite a bit of digging to come up with logical reasons versus philosophical/moral/emotional ones (which can't really be proven and are in the end up to the individual).

I don't have anything to prove that the scenes in the videos are somewhat misrepresentative beyond personal experience. If you can go to a farm and try to see things from the farmer's perspective for a couple days, then I think that would give a more solid foundation for both understanding the situation and your beliefs. Visit a slaughterhouse, even. Anyone can tell you things on the net- show videos. But whether the source be PeTA, a PhD, Joe from next door- I personally will always listen and then see for myself as much as possible. Earthlings isn't wrong- it's just skewed.

A good person to look up with production/slaughterhouse welfare is Temple Grandin, though- she's really amazing and has revolutionized the industry (I know- enemy to AR to have AW... I see your point, but she's a great reference anyway.)
(broken link removed)

 

[Alusdra]

I think it is hard to relate the animal issues that are seen today to human issues like slavery and racism. Not because animals are different than humans. We are all, of course, animals. But for example with the slavery- it didn't start out as a race issue- Africans were selling each other, after all, as well as being abducted by Europeans. It became a race issue in America as a justification for the continuation of the institution. And that, actually, might be a better way of comparing the AR cause to slavery. Since when we dehumanize, or in the case of animals, try to downplay their ability to feel pain, have needs, emotions, etc- that is a justification for their continued use in just the same way that it was/ is for slaves. The cultural problem of considering African people as being stupid, unable to care for themselves, etc. (interesting factoid I learned the other day- but melanin can increase cognitive capabilities- so scientifically, the darker your skin the smarter you should be) is just a coping mechanism for us, culturally (I think anyway). That parallels nicely with the idea that animals have the same rights as do we, but culturally we have downplayed their equality and their closeness to us in all ways.

Discussing these issues always makes me think- a reason I keep coming back to this site for sure- and I have been ruminating a bit again on my reasons and morals. And I admit, part of my current views has been trying to adjust what I think with what I do like you describe. But part, too, is logic. I really don't see becoming a vegetarian as the solution- speciesism aside.

Vegetarians still eat milk and eggs. In order to have female cows and chickens there are equal numbers of males of both species that are killed to get those producing animals. So why not eat them? Is my question. So say that we perfect the sperm sorting method. Even so eventually the egg laying or milk production level will drop, and those animals will be culled. Again- why not eat them? In addition in order for a dairy cow to be lactating she needs to be bred every year. Some calves will become milk producers- but not near all of them. Same question- the meat is already there, why waste it?

So is the answer veganism? Well ignoring the B12 and any other deficiencies in there - it's not like farming is so eco-friendly either. More so? Maybe, but will farming organic plant matter be able to feed our human population that is exploding, with the climate change that is going on and considering all of the places in the world where having a cow can mean the difference between malnutrition and survival? I doubt it.

So why go to such lengths, it seems to me, if only veganism might accomplish something. It doesn't seem like it will really work all that well when I try to look at it practically. The issues seem bigger, more cultural. And if I started down such a path, though- like you I think my 'perfectionism' as you say, would lead me to slowly starve to death. There is nothing I could consume that would not be harmed. Having animal rights views to me is almost against life. Life means death. Though I don't have any more right to it than any other animal on the planet (or plant, or fungi, or bacteria) neither do I have any less.

And actually- it might be a great idea if we could somehow get Dr. King to go back in time to meet with slave owners. Perhaps the course of history could be changed with the knowledge and ethics that he could bring to that world. Perhaps he could counsel the Africans on different ways to have managed their resources, or slave owners to stop the 'stupid black person' stereotype before it caught on. I don't know enough history to get more in depth than that- but I believe that Dr. King was a brilliant man when it came to all sorts of cultural issues and would not necessarily have as much of an ethical problem as you are implying. No one tries to be evil, after all. Everyone thinks that what they are doing is what is right- even if they are deluding themselves. Granted, I have not been wronged as Africans have been in this country, or animals, either, I suppose- but I would like to think that in such a position I could still have compassion for other lives, even as their actions harm me.


Oh- and to catzeye21138- I wouldn't let you skip the meat, either. Bread and corn is not even close to a healthy meal. Try suggesting more nutritious sides so you have a leg to stand on when you don't eat them meat- like something with beans and various vitamin rich veggies or a nice salad with different lettuces and nuts or something. One they see how tasty and cheap it is, they might keep eating more vegetarian even after you leave the house.

 

[Susan9608]

So is the answer veganism? Well ignoring the B12 and any other deficiencies in there - it's not like farming is so eco-friendly either. More so? Maybe, but will farming organic plant matter be able to feed our human population that is exploding, with the climate change that is going on and considering all of the places in the world where having a cow can mean the difference between malnutrition and survival? I doubt it.

Actually, in the US at least, it is very uncommon to have a B12 deficiency strictly related to diet. Most B12 deficiencies are in relation to having a lack of intrinsic factor - that is, the substance that allows you to absorb it from your gut. If you do happen to be missing the intrinsic factor, you'll have to get B12 through IM injections for the rest of your life, so veganism becomes a moot point for you anyways.

Most processed foods now days are required to be so fortified with all vitamins and minerals that even the strictest of vegans don't even have to take a basic multi-vitamin.

I hate to see concerns like these - which I consider basically frivolous and which seem to come from a large number of people who no greater education in and understanding of nutrition - discourage people from vegetarianism and/or veganism.

Also, farming plants is significantly more eco-friendly than farming animals. For one thing, it saves a tremendous amount of water, which can then be utilized for human consumption ... not to mention all the grain that is raised to feed animals that could be used for human consumption.

How do you not understand that farming plant life is not the same as farming non human animals from an environmental stand-point?

Certainly some climates and areas are not ideal for growing food suitable to sustain life; however, given that this is a mobile world, I have no doubt that with the money saved and the increase of available food, there would be some way of shipping food where it needs to go. (of course, political climates in war torn areas would have to be addressed, but this is a totally separate issue.)

 

[thalestral]

B12 is available from bacteria and yeast, you don't need to take any fortified or supplemented food to get it. I get all the B12 I need from eating marmite now and then and adding some nutritional yeast flakes to some of my dishes (yummy!).

There are many studies also showing that a vegan diet is the best one for the environment and would be sustainable for the whole world.

Turning your back on veganism because it still wouldn't be perfect (at this time in the world) is just wrong. So because some wildlife still dies at the hands of the farm machines (though much less given how little crops need harvested for humans compared to livestock animals) means it's okay to eat sentient beings?

I highly recommend reading over the Vegan Society website before commenting on veganism as a lot of your statements about it are highly erroneous, not to mention quite frustrating for those of us who seek to live a life with as little suffering as possible :sad:

(broken link removed)

 

[Susan9608]

Just to clarify - I wasn't saying anyone *has* to eat fortified or processed foods in order to sustain proper levels of B12; rather, I was saying that since almost every processed food is now required to be fortified with B12, the chances of developing a deficiency (as a vegetarian/vegan), as long as you still have the intrinsic factor for proper absorption, is unlikely.

 

[Brittnie]

im vegan BUT!

most slaughter houses do make the
killing process quick,
with the least amount of pain.
they don't kick them in there
heads until they stop moving. :ashamed:

please dont jump on me for saying that.
i SUPPORT everyone that is vegan/vegetarian.
tofu is delicious anyways.

 

[Susan9608]

most slaughter houses do make the
killing process quick,
with the least amount of pain.
they don't kick them in there
heads until they stop moving

I'd absolutely *love* to see the evidence you have to support this. Surely you're not just pulling statements like this out of your ass, right?

 

[Sammy and Peanut]

I agree with Susan. Maybe you should try YouTube. Type in things such as, slaughter house cruelty, or Meet your Meat. Then, you will see that your statement was wrong, and if you don't, you should really browse the kitchen and the in the news forums.

 

[Sammy and Peanut]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Brittnie]

I'd absolutely *love* to see the evidence you have to support this. Surely you're not just pulling statements like this out of your ass, right?

MOST was the key word in that.
the Humane Slaughter Law.
According to the law, animals should be stunned into unconsciousness prior to their slaughter to ensure a quick, relatively painless death.
But im not saying that everybody abides that law either.

 

[Susan9608]

Yes, the Humane Slaughter Act - check out this link: GoVeg.com // Government Regulation // Why the Humane Slaughter Act and the USDA Fail to Prevent Cruelty to Animals

 

[Biscuit]

People learn when they're ready to learn, and not a moment sooner. People change when they're ready to change, and not a moment sooner. So you're correct.

I don't know why I haven't yet. I'm starting to think I'm really just a bad, weak person. I do a lot of strong things, and a lot of good things, but why I have such trouble with this I don't know. It's really weird and personal and I should probably just take my meds and sink back into denial.

I've thought about this for a year at least, and it just now crossed my mind that detachment might be the problem. People see videos and cry and care. I see them and I care, but on some base, detached level. It's sort of how I respond to everything, not just things that go against behaviors I wish to justify continuing.

I feel like I can see all the sad videos in the world and that somehow won't connect to the chicken in my penne pasta. I feel bad about that but obviously not bad enough to stop eating it? Either way, this whole subject always throws me into a mess of internal conflict. It's not conflict of "is eating meat okay," it's pondering of my own nature and if I am a horrid person.

Does this make any sense? :sorry:

 

[Biscuit]

Finally, let me add that regardless of how anyone interprets this discussion, regardless of all the possible outcomes of it and other discussions like it, I've become even more certain of something I was already sure of: trying to use reason, logic, and rational thought to persuade unreasonable, illogical, and irrational creatures hardly ever works. I'm speaking in the most general terms here, and this comment is absolutely not directed at any individual. I used to think human beings were inherently evil. Then I saw some good things from humanity, so I thought, well maybe they're not all evil, but they're all still inherently selfish. As I get older and I see and hear more things, I've reached one simple conclusion that says it much, much better than any of the abrasive generalizations I've used in the past, and I most definitely include myself in this group. In fact, it's partially based on my experiences dealing with my own irrationality. HUMAN BEINGS ARE INHERENTLY STUPID.

Aww, I had it typed out in chat speak for mockery purposes, but I revoked it, uncertain if my dork-bomb sense of humor would result in impactions rather than the intended chuckle.

You are the awesome. That is all.

 

[thalestral]

It took me years of feeling guilty and thinking "I'd be vegetarian if I could" before I eventually took the plunge My guinea pigs were the driving force but mostly, I just made the decision and went for it.

I think once you make the decision it doesn't take long for you to know if it was the right one or not. I've never looked back!

 

[Justin]

<quote> People learn when they're ready to learn, and not a moment sooner. People change when they're ready to change, and not a moment sooner. </quote>

You explained why I haven't changed despite everything I heard, read, and watched over last few years. My stubbornness troubled me for some time.

My previous boss used to say in dinners, "other's flesh is tastier." He didn't really mean that meat is tastier than vegetable (because we both already knew that). He was kindly trying to teach me that one can make greater business profit by crushing one's competitors (or customers.)

You can see that all the horrible truth of meat eating won't bother his soul. And it hasn't bothered mine enough to change either. Becoming a vegetarian would be much easier, if your moral has already reached certain level. Then you would just have to learn the facts. For someone with under developed moral, such as myself, it is harder.

But I am considering it again, after I see it in this guinea pig forum that I like very much for other reasons. I don't see a complete change in any near future. But I might be ready in some time.