I am not against breeders. (Rant)

My point is that all species die during birth. You just want to say only guinea pigs. How many dog, how many cats on that site.
Your suggesting we only buy from shelters. Well eventually there will not be enough for everyone that wants one or from the ocassional oops pregnancy. Then what? That forces people to breed. Supply and demand. I would like to think that if there eere more regulations and education we would have responsible breeder. Their going to breed anyway, lets have it safe and regulated. Lets continue to give great advice and educate. If we only say breeding is bad, those backyard breeders are going to continue and useless deaths will happen. You cant just say breeding is bad and shut it down. That will never happen. So accept the fact that it will continue and everyone work to changing the conditions. Ive talked to the manager at our local petco when i found the gpigs in a fish tank, over crowded.i calmly explained the problem and why. He apologized and moved them back to the huge enclosure where they had only one little gray animal whatever they are. Small steps, changes, regulations, education. Work for a change, not a blind eye. Bad conditions will only continue that way.

daisy1cow said:

Good gosh. My point is it is a fact of life, it happens but you all just dont want to see another side. Im not saying its right, but there are good breeders and bad breeders, good people, bad people, animals, humans die during birth. Im sure theres rape victims who have died giving birth to that child. They didnt make that choice either. Im sorry you only see one side on something. That doesnt help with change. If we all fought together to change things and make it better but you want it to just stop and it never will and not advocating hurts the cause. this site has a great opportunity to change things, give out correct information . Theres great possibility here but if you shut it down conditions will be considerably worse, no regulations and then things are horribly bad

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The fact is, it will never stop so the next best thing is for those who actually care about the welfare of animals to not add to the overpopulation. It's that "not me, let others do it" attitude that needs to change. Very few people who breed keep their animals, aside from perhaps a token few. It's not about caring and nurturing. It's about experimenting and trying to achieve a certain look or gender and selling off the unwanted goods. The attitude that really bugs me is someone who wants to teach their kids the cycle of life or someone who is obsessed with pregnancy and giving birth so they can watch the guinea pig through the process. You'll often see that in teen girls. Once the pups come, the novelty wears off. There basically are no regulations now so there's not much more to be said about the possibility of conditions getting worse. Rescues have been a godsend but even they can't solve the whole problem. That's why educating the public on spaying/neutering is so important. I'd be interested in seeing the chain of events for those who are intentionally breeding to follow the life of all the pups their guinea pigs have. I have no doubt that some of them would tell heartbreaking stories.

daisy1cow said:

My point is that all species die during birth. You just want to say only guinea pigs. How many dog, how many cats on that site.
Your suggesting we only buy from shelters. Well eventually there will not be enough for everyone that wants one or from the ocassional oops pregnancy. Then what? That forces people to breed. Supply and demand. I would like to think that if there eere more regulations and education we would have responsible breeder. Their going to breed anyway, lets have it safe and regulated. Lets continue to give great advice and educate. If we only say breeding is bad, those backyard breeders are going to continue and useless deaths will happen. You cant just say breeding is bad and shut it down. That will never happen. So accept the fact that it will continue and everyone work to changing the conditions. Ive talked to the manager at our local petco when i found the gpigs in a fish tank, over crowded.i calmly explained the problem and why. He apologized and moved them back to the huge enclosure where they had only one little gray animal whatever they are. Small steps, changes, regulations, education. Work for a change, not a blind eye. Bad conditions will only continue that way.

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Please explain to me how the breeding of guinea pigs in private homes would be regulated and who would pay for it and how it would be enforced. You're dreaming. It would never happen. The backyard breeder cannot be regulated because most of the time no one even knows about it since guinea pigs are kept indoors.

Ok, here is my last post on all of this. No one wants to budge or see another side. Lets agree to disagree. But the bottom line is we all want what is best for our pigs and future other pigs out there. Why can't we work together to make changes instead of sitting here getting nowhere.

How many people are on this site???? Theres a lot of us that feel the same way about our adorable little guys and gals. Why cant we start the movement? Maybe it wont be complete in our time, but our future cavy slaves can carry on the fight. Lets email our congressmen, lets fight for stricter laws and penalties for all breeders. Lets write to companies who make these ridiculous toys (balls) and treats (yogurt drops) We all have gpigs, we KNOW what they like.

Instead of trying to condemn and shut them down, lets give them ideas of what our pigs like instead. They can still keep their business and make money but are putting out the right things. Lets get pgigs faces off of products they don't belong on. Lets sell c&c cages to stores instead of little boxes of torture. When Petco has their gpig fair, lets talk to the managers and see if we can be there so the right information can go out to these potential buyers so they know the facts and what to buy.

But sitting here trying to push our beliefs on each other isn't changing anything for the lives of pigs out there born or unborn. I havent seen them in aquariums since that day at Petco. Maybe he learned. Its little steps at a time, change will happen. My cousin and his partner where able to marry. Something they never thought would happen, but pushing, writing, informing and change has happened and people can now marry who the love. Why can't that work for ALL animals?

Yes, pinky it would take time and manpower to regulate, but maybe starting off volunteering and eventually people see your way and will work with you. I don't know all the answers, but breeding will always continue. let all of us who have a common love work together to make changes.

What good is sitting her complaining but not working towards a change? Sows will still dying, breeders are still breeding without any regulation. Im going out to make a change. I work in special education. I advocate for my students. Without a voice they have none. The same with animals. If we don't fight for them who will? Our school has cut so many important special ed programs this year. Threw our students in general education classes where they are sinking. Im going to the school board. I will continue to fight for my kids. Same with animals.

Thats all. @bpatter you can remove me from this site.

daisy1cow said:

Ok, here is my last post on all of this. No one wants to budge or see another side. Lets agree to disagree. But the bottom line is we all want what is best for our pigs and future other pigs out there. Why can't we work together to make changes instead of sitting here getting nowhere.
How many people are on this site???? Theres a lot of us that feel the same way about our adorable little guys and gals. Why cant we start the movement? Maybe it wont be complete in our time, but our future cavy slaves can carry on the fight. Lets email our congressmen, lets fight for stricter laws and penalties for all breeders. Lets write to companies who make these ridiculous toys (balls) and treats (yogurt drops) We all have gpigs, we KNOW what they like. Instead of trying to condemn and shut them down, lets give them ideas of what our pigs like instead. They can still keep their business and make money but are putting out the right things. Lets get pgigs faces off of products they don't belong on. Lets sell c&c cages to stores instead of little boxes of torture. When Petco has their gpig fair, lets talk to the managers and see if we can be there so the right information can go out to these potential buyers so they know the facts and what to buy.
But sitting here trying to push our beliefs on each other isn't changing anything for the lives of pigs out there born or unborn. I havent seen them in aquariums since that day at Petco. Maybe he learned. Its little steps at a time, change will happen. My cousin and his partner where able to marry. Something they never thought would happen, but pushing, writing, informing and change has happened and people can now marry who the love. Why can't that work for ALL animals?
Yes, pinky it would take time and manpower to regulate, but maybe starting off volunteering and eventually people see your way and will work with you. I don't know all the answers, but breeding will always continue. let all of us who have a common love work together to make changes.
What good is sitting her complaining but not working towards a change? Sows will still dying, breeders are still breeding without any regulation. Im going out to make a change. I work in special education. I advocate for my students. Without a voice they have none. The same with animals. If we don't fight for them who will? Our school has cut so many important special ed programs this year. Threw our students in general education classes where they are sinking. Im going to the school board. I will continue to fight for my kids. Same with animals.
Thats all. @bpatter you can remove me from this site.

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Dog breeding hasn't even been successfully regulated so do you think they can regulate the thousands and thousands of guinea pigs that are bred in homes? It's not going to happen. There isn't enough money for the government to take care of our sick and poor and provide an education to our kids so the money's not there. How long have you volunteered at a rescue or shelter to understand what's out there? I've been a volunteer with a guinea pig rescue since 2002. I find it funny how people automatically say let's regulate it. People aren't going to vote into law something that will take money away from human health and services to fund guinea pigs being born in someone's house.... guinea pigs that reptile owners scoop up as feeders. Before rescues came along, guinea pigs were just let loose or killed when they multiplied. Compassionate people started taking in these doomed creatures and caring for them and finding them appropriate homes. The answer isn't more laws. The answer is responsibility and common sense which goes a much longer way. You can't compare the education of children with pocket pets. My brother in law is the retired superintendent of one of the Chicago suburban school districts, my sister has two masters in special ed. My daughter has two masters; one in leadership in education and the other in technology, plus we have countless nieces who are teachers. I am very aware of the differences in funding and legislation of schools and animals and there is no comparison. After you've volunteered for a decade or so at a rescue or shelter you might have a better idea of what's really out there..... I'm looking forward to reading excerpts of the letters and responses you get back from your congressmen and the action taken by the companies that make cages, yogurt drops and hamster balls. The companies that make those accessories will stop making them when people stop buying them which is the same thing that will happen with breeding if people stop buying the guinea pigs from breeders.

@daisy1cow, could you explain to me how laws and regulations of breeding in this country are going to help guinea pig sales in the big pet stores when those pigs mostly are imported?

daisy1cow said:

Ok, here is my last post on all of this. No one wants to budge or see another side. Lets agree to disagree. But the bottom line is we all want what is best for our pigs and future other pigs out there. Why can't we work together to make changes instead of sitting here getting nowhere.
How many people are on this site???? Theres a lot of us that feel the same way about our adorable little guys and gals. Why cant we start the movement? Maybe it wont be complete in our time, but our future cavy slaves can carry on the fight. Lets email our congressmen, lets fight for stricter laws and penalties for all breeders. Lets write to companies who make these ridiculous toys (balls) and treats (yogurt drops) We all have gpigs, we KNOW what they like. Instead of trying to condemn and shut them down, lets give them ideas of what our pigs like instead. They can still keep their business and make money but are putting out the right things. Lets get pgigs faces off of products they don't belong on. Lets sell c&c cages to stores instead of little boxes of torture. When Petco has their gpig fair, lets talk to the managers and see if we can be there so the right information can go out to these potential buyers so they know the facts and what to buy.
But sitting here trying to push our beliefs on each other isn't changing anything for the lives of pigs out there born or unborn. I havent seen them in aquariums since that day at Petco. Maybe he learned. Its little steps at a time, change will happen. My cousin and his partner where able to marry. Something they never thought would happen, but pushing, writing, informing and change has happened and people can now marry who the love. Why can't that work for ALL animals?
Yes, pinky it would take time and manpower to regulate, but maybe starting off volunteering and eventually people see your way and will work with you. I don't know all the answers, but breeding will always continue. let all of us who have a common love work together to make changes.
What good is sitting her complaining but not working towards a change? Sows will still dying, breeders are still breeding without any regulation. Im going out to make a change. I work in special education. I advocate for my students. Without a voice they have none. The same with animals. If we don't fight for them who will? Our school has cut so many important special ed programs this year. Threw our students in general education classes where they are sinking. Im going to the school board. I will continue to fight for my kids. Same with animals.
Thats all. @bpatter you can remove me from this site.

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I am not touching this thread with a mile long pole, but only stopped by to say I admire your drive and your passion

Sit back, do nothing but complain and nothing will change. Ever

@daisy1cow, I don't think anybody on this thread is advocating that nothing be done. I've re-read it, and I don't see a single post suggesting that. So that's not part of the argument.

What I'm interested in is workable solutions to the problems associated with many guinea pig breeders. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I'd like to see suggestions for solutions to the following issues:

1) How can imported guinea pigs be regulated? There are regulations regarding the import of animals, but they're flaunted all the time. On that same topic, who's going to treat all those guinea pigs in all those (mostly Asian) countries? There aren't enough exotic vets here or in Europe, where animals generally get good care. We see dozens of posters from places like India and South Africa would can't find a single vet who knows anything about pocket pets.

2) If small animals are sold in pet stores, how do we prevent impulse buying? There's a new thread on here this morning about someone who bought guinea pigs who knew NOTHING about them except that they are cute. If pigs weren't available in pet stores, then people would actually have to WANT a guinea pig in order to get one, not just pass by some adorable animal in a store and decide they're going to "rescue" it.

3) Who is going to fund the coordination of any effort to educate pet store owners/breeders/purchasers? Some people in California tried to outlaw the sale of pets in stores (Teresa was a big part of that effort), and they were out-fought, out-funded, and ultimately defeated by the people who would have lost money on the sale of these animals.

4) Why would pet stores provide any better care to guinea pigs than they have to? They're in the business of making money, not of improving breeds. They sell small animals because they are easily bred, cheap to feed, easy to ship, and people want them because they're cute. If they had to provide medical care to the sick ones, the cost to the consumer would skyrocket, and fewer would be sold. If the stores actually had to train people to care for the pets, that would also cost them money. Some of them currently provide some level of care to sick pigs who are brought back to them, but they won't fund that care with an exotic vet who actually knows how to treat them.

5) How would you get the stores to stop selling improper items? The local managers have very little say about what gets sold in their stores. They pick from a list made up by someone in the corporate office, in that they get to say they want x number of y cages, and b number of c cages. But they can't just decide to sell C&C cages without a decision being made by the corporate office to allow that? And why would they want to stop selling balls and leashes for guinea pigs, when an ignorant public will pay for them? The managers are graded, and their bonuses are awarded, on the total sales of their stores, not on how many guinea pig backs they've protected by removing balls and leashes from their shelves.

Sit back and do nothing? Don't you realize that boycotting something you want to put an end to is one of the most effective ways to put a "business" out of business? Cut off their money supply and they stop since it's no longer profitable. There's nothing wrong with putting the word out to your representatives or stores that you don't like something but putting your money where your mouth is the key to being successful. Legislation often doesn't work because it COSTS money. The majority of people aren't going to want their taxes raised to save guinea pigs. Many don't even want to pay higher taxes to pay for better schools. Do you own a home? Look at your real estate bill to see where your money goes. I find that it's often those who don't understand how they're taxed or aren't paying taxes are those who cry "legislate it!" In order to enforce laws, you need money to pay for inspectors and the resources to implement those inspections. You need people to screen calls, maintain paperwork, etc. I called in an abuse case a few years back. It took the Dept of Agriculture months to follow up. I don't think they even ever went to the place I called on. In the case of mills, if they get busted in a state with stricter laws, they simply relocate to another state or move to a place in their home state where they won't get discovered. The people on here who are anti breeding are not doing "nothing." You'll find that many of them are the ones who are involved with rescues and are knowledgeable about guinea pig health and care. I'll bet a lot of people who came on here after having bought guinea pigs will tell you they never even realized how many homeless ones there. You'll also find that most adopt the next time.

daisy1cow said:

Just out of curiosity.

Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

Mine survived............... 0/5

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Sorry for jumping in so late...

I've rescued three pregnant sows.

Zumi: one pup. Both mama and pup died at about two years old.

Holly: died before the pups were born. Pregnancy toxemia suspected.

Ivy: three pups. All survived, I still have Ivy and one baby.

So, for me that's 1/3. 33%.... much more than the "average" of 20%

Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree about getting a piggy online. I got one from a mother and son on craiglist. It was a situation where a he turned out to be a she and ended up pregnant and they were trying to get rid of the babies. However, my piggy is very sweet and healthy so I would agree with you that if the breeder knows what they're doing and loves thier pigs and isn't just trying to turn a profit, a guinea pig from a breeder with a small operation might be the best thing. I've also got my first two guinea pigs from PetSmart with mixed results. The first one is still happy and healthy, but the second one passed away a few weeks later. I don't think it was necessarily the pet store's fault though. I think the guinea pig just had a predisposition to bladder stones, which can happen with any guinea pig no matter where they come from.

All in all, I think no matter where you get your pigs from, it should be taken on a case by case basis. My PetSmart store has a great manager who makes sure she gets thier pigs from reputable breeders that don't breed pigs with genetic issues. They also have a vet that examines each and every animal that comes in for adoption. If it's sick, it doesn't get adopted. Because there are different managers at every pet store, it can be hit or miss depending on the manager. The same goes for rescues and shelters. I went to my local ASPCA looking for a pet and was appalled at the conditions they keep their animals in. Even the cats and dogs were in tiny cages and sitting in their own poo and pee because the manager doesn't care about the animals, only her public image as a "savior for animals" or whatever. I'm sure she makes sure that everything is spotless when an review comes around though. >(

I actually think if everyone went to the best and most responsible breeders we could empty the shelters faster than adopting shelter animals. Every time you take an animal from a shelter you make space for another animal. We think this is a good thing but it works much like a petstore. People then have a place to dump their excess from breeding or impulse buys. If it was harder to give up an animal people might think more about accidental and poorly planned breeding or impulse buying animals they might have to get rid of later. Also finding a good breeder means doing research so more people would know more about the animal/breed they are wanting to get making fewer people buy animals they can't handle and making the people who do decide that animal/breed is right for them be more prepared. The responsible breeders would make sure the animal has the best home possible that is least likely to give up the animal. Then if an unexpected event comes up a responsible breeder would take back an animal that someone had to give up and find a new good home for it that is least likely to have to give it up. Another benefit is that good breeders will breed for health and temperament. It's possible we could have much friendlier guinea pigs. I've had the odd one that loved being picked up, never ran away, and came when called. If we had been breeding for that behavior instead of all the people just making cute guinea pigs we could already have much better pets and again reduce the number of people who give them up to shelters because their pet will be more interactive.

In the end I think we would eliminate most millbreeders and reduce shelters and rescues down to true emergency situations by encouraging people to look for good and responsible breeders. It would take a long time to change the way of thinking and make people actually look for good breeders instead of the closest or cheapest breeder. The idea is not without flaw but I think eventually it would work. That is why I am not against all​ breeders of most animals. Just a majority of them.

@aqh88 There is a flaw in the base theory of your idea. The flaw is simply that if people can not surrender their guinea pigs they would be forced to keep them. This is absolutely not true at all, even when there is plenty of room in shelters there are still an astounding number of people who just are not willing to be bothered to take their unwanted pet there, so what do they do?

They let them loose, have them fend for themselves in the wild (one thread on here had some guinea pigs that were found in a snow bank after being dumped). Sometimes these people do even worse things to their unwanted pet. It is much more common then you would think already so making it harder to surrender guinea pigs would just make that issue worse.

Heck as it is most people don't even know surrendering a guinea pig to a shelter is something they CAN do. I doubt making surrendering harder would make them think any harder about their purchase when they don't even know surrendering is an option in the first place.

Another flaw in aqh88 theory is the part about emptying shelters quicker by going to breeders. The county and city shelters are typically there for animal control and are "open-door", meaning they have to accept any animal that comes to them. If there are no more "spaces" at a shelter, that doesn't mean they won't accept anymore. It means that some critters will be euthanized to make space for the new ones.

A large number of surrenders that we see are due to people not wanting to take the responsibility that they signed up for. Many kids promise to take care of the pets and then within a short time (months, weeks or even days) find out that the upkeep isn't so much fun and it becomes a constant struggle between the parents and kids. When our adopters run into this and want to return the piggies, I never try to talk them into keeping them because I think the piggies would be better off somewhere else.