I am not against breeders. (Rant)

Lovecavy13 · Oct 12, 2014

I just wanted to put this out there for a few reasons.

1) everyone keeps making such a huge deal that I don't mind the thought of breeders. Now before you go down to the comments and type this huge long comment about how breeding is just as bad a dog fighting let me elaborate.

I've talked to about six breeders in my area (New England) and all of them are extremely nice people. One of them is my Environmental studies teacher (we have an entire section on guinea pigs, rabbits, and rodents. So I'm actually qualified to say this stuff I'm not some kid that had no idea what I'm talking about) they all take really good care of there pigs. All of them have regular vet appointments, really good cages, good food they even have safe enclosures outside where they can run around and eat grass all day long in the spring and fall. These guinea pigs are happy!

Yes there are some very bad breeders but guess what! There's some very bad shelters too! And we all know there's a lot of very bad pet stores.

Breeding is risky yes. But adopting from a shelter is too.

When you adopt an animal from a shelter you don't know ANYTHING about that animal except what the past owners tell you (which could be a lie. People do that) and the animal comes with a history. Maybe it was abused and will NEVER get on with people again. Or other guinea pigs (cause there are guinea pigs that just don't get along with other guinea pigs)

I personally do not like that. I don't trust shelters. All my animals from shelters always had to be nurses back to health. Just because I don't Want to nurse an animal back to health does not mean I shouldn't be a pet owner. It means I don't want to get emotionally attacked to an animal who might just die. And I don't trust or think it's right to buy an animal, a living thing, over the internet. That really just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm tired of people saying I don't deserve to be an animal owner because one of my guinea pigs is from a pet store and the other is going to be from a breeder.

This is a site against breeding. That doesn't mean I have to ditch my ideas and conform. This would be a better site if people were more tolerant of what others thing. Then you have BOTH sides of an opinion. Not just a bunch of preach happy people that would sooner take your animals away because you aren't made of money or dong have an endless emergency medical fond (yes I do have one but it's not bottomless) or because you messed up once or twice. I'm not a perfect pet owner but whoever you are that's reading this. Neither are you.

I have no problem with breeders. If you have an actually intellectual response please feel free to comment but I'm not going to respond to those who are going to tell me I don't deserve my animals or that I'm such a horrible person for disagreeing. If you get my opinion then I get mine.

And just because here's a picture of my baby puddles. Who is PERFECTLY healthy and happy mind you. Even though he came from a pet store.

(Things I've heard and still haven't changed my opinion because of;
-the death rate of pregnant females (this is with all animals. It's higher in guinea pigs but I've actually never known of a female who died. My breeder friends and teacher have never lost or had a complication during birth. )

- how awful breeders treat there animals. Again I've never known any breeder to "constantly keep there pigs pregnant" or "keep them in awful conditions" that doesn't mean these things don't happen but I'm not adopting from them.

-the supply and demand. The breeders I know only have litters after the have people to buy lined up. There's no excess of guinea pigs or unplanned litters or inbreeding or any of that. They take very careful planning to make sure the pigs breed are not inbreed and are healthy.

My opinion. If you don't like it that's up to you.

CavyMama · Oct 12, 2014

@Lovecavy13, you are certainly welcome to your opinion but if you are looking for support on the issue, I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

AmberCalzone · Oct 12, 2014

There are many, many people who feel the way you do. I promise you there are. There are even many people on this site who feel the way you do. They simply do not express that opinion on these forums because the site as a whole has taken an anti-breeding stance (because the sight's owner is anti-breeding), and it is respectful to the site to not express "pro-breeding" opinions when the forum claims it is "anti-breeding".

On the same hand, I do wish the forum wasn't so anti-breeding. I do wish more discussion was allowed, because as of right now, the entire "breeding debate" is extremely one sided, and isn't really a debate at all because of that.

I personally am against breeding in /most/ cases. Very truthfully I am. I believe that there are too many people who just decide, "BABY GUINEA PIGS! I want them!" or "Lets make some quick and easy cash!" and I do not condone that sort of breeding what so ever. I think breeding is not for the majority of guinea pig owners. I do agree with you that there are some very responsible breeders. I just do not express this opinion usually, on this site, because this site's opinion as a whole has taken a stance that no breeding is responsible.

Personally, my guinea pigs will only be rescues. But that doesn't mean that I think all breeders are horrible people, or what they're doing is exactly wrong.

ginipigsinspace · Oct 12, 2014

I did not comment on your comments about breeding and shelters on the other thread because I had not previously participated in that thread and did not want to look like I was "piling on" the minute it got controversial. However, since you started this new thread just to discuss it I will bring up a few points I wanted to mention before:

As with many members who come here and argue for breeding, I think you are mistaking the greater good of guinea pigs for what is good for you as the owner of a guinea pig. If the latter is all you care about, that is your prerogative. However, you cannot say that people on a forum that is anti-breeding and anti-petstore have no right to try and explain their own positions. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to not be criticized for that speech (or really have any bearing on a privately owned website, but I digress). You may not have to "ditch [your] ideas and conform," but you cannot expect a community whose ideology is rooted in a belief that is opposite to yours to just stay quiet.

As for some of your main points: You mention both in this thread and the other thread that shelters in your area are "dirty" and liken bad breeders to bad shelters. First, shelters are not adding to the overpopulation. No matter how dirty they are, if they are providing a temporary home for the pig and giving an opportunity for that pig to get a new home (which is sort of the point of shelters) they are helping. This is still true if they are "trying to make money" because you are still talking about a guinea pig who already exists as part of the population, and who needs a home. All breeders, bad or "good," are producing more pigs when there are many pigs who need a home. This adds to the overpopulation and is part of the problem. No matter how good these breeders are, they are still adding to overpopulation, and you will be too if you purchase one from them, as it continues the incentive to breed. Also, just because you do not know anyone who has lost a sow does not diminish the statistics.

In addition, your main argument for why you want to go through a breeder seems to come down to health. Sure, having a healthy pig is ideal. However, it is a situation that is ideal for you. You do not want a sick pig because you do not want to deal with nursing it back to health. You do not want a pig who might be sick and die. However, sick pigs do not cease to be sick because you did not adopt them, so the only difference is what is convenient for you. Plus, even if you can guarantee the pig will not be sick when you get it from the breeder (which is never 100%) as many members mentioned, there are many illnesses that can go undetected for a while. You also keep talking about dirty shelters, but since you live in a major metropolitan area I am sure there is at least one rescue close enough to you. Maybe this is what you mean by "adopting over the internet," but rescues, whose entire purpose is the well-being of pigs, make sure pigs are healthy, well cared for, and will help you find a perfect pair for your current pigs. I think many of the members on this site who run or work with rescues can back me when I say you are probably more likely to get a healthy pig from a rescue than a breeder.

I am sorry you feel attacked. Ultimately, everyone is just trying to help. You are in a community who wants the best for pigs, all pigs, not just to help you find pigs who will be the most convenient for you.

labgirl5 · Oct 12, 2014

I personally think you're giving shelters a bad image. Unlike backyard breeders (there are some good guinea pig breeders, although they're few and far between), they don't try and add new piggies to an already overpopulated species; instead, shelters try and help the pigs who are already on the Earth. I'm sorry that your experience with shelters hasn't been the best, but all of the shelters that I have dealt with offer veterinary care for their animals, and pet store are SO MUCH WORSE. Instead of helping guinea pig in need, they buy them from pet mills for profit. In fact, I'm sure there's a much higher rate for sick animals from pet stores as opposed to shelters!

I'm curious of why these breeder friends of your's do breed - is it to better the species, or to pop out cute baby guinea pigs to sell every once in a while? That's the real question.

pigger123 · Oct 12, 2014

What about rescues? Good rescues will treat their pigs for any sicknesses and make sure they're healthy and happy before adopting them out. This way, you get your healthy pig, and you actually save one instead of adding to the numbers of homeless and unwanted pigs.

Princess_Piggie · Oct 12, 2014

There are no good breeders in my opinion. They risk the lives of sows and pups for their own enjoyment/hobby/career. It's selfish, harmful, and does nothing for the species. The only difference between most breeds is fur type (or lack of, in the case of skinnies and werewolves) so it's certainly not being done to keep certain breeds alive. Sure, some have more...blunt and roman-esque noses, but if you're risking pigs lives for a nose type...jeez.

Most breeders probably don't have DNA kits sitting in their spare rooms either. So how do they weed out what pigs carry roan allele? Some pigs that are mostly white carry the gene, but it can't be visually confirmed because roan is a speckling of white hairs....so they're also risking lethal pups being born, which essentially means they're okay with bringing pups in to the world that may not live longer than a week, or have to get put down because of more serious side effects like digestive issues. Again, risking all that for a hobby? Selfish.

Regardless of the conditions they're breeding in, there's still that 1 in 5 chance the mother won't survive. The pig could have a 6x6 cage, a really good exotic vet and all the fresh veg it can eat and the risk is still there. Providing a nice cage is just that, a nice cage.

I doubt anyone's calling you a bad pet owner because your first pig is from a pet store. Both my girls are, and at least 50% of the forum I'd say also has/has had pet store pigs. We all made that mistake because we didn't know the information this forum provides when we decided to get guinea pigs. What we're mostly saying, is that to choose to buy from a breeder for reasons only benefiting yourself doesn't seem like you have guinea pigs best interests (as a whole) at heart. You're taking the easy route and not thinking in the long term, or looking at the big picture.

If you don't want the effort of nursing a pet back to health, don't get a pet. It might not be tomorrow, or next month, or even next year, but at some point, you'll have a sick pet that needs taking care of, regardless of where it came from. If you get a pet from a breeder, a pet store, a rescue, as a gift, whatever it will die eventually. It's part and parcel of being an owner. If you can't handle getting attached to something you'll eventually loose, maybe owning a pet is too big a responsibility for you at the moment.

pinky · Oct 12, 2014

Of course, the breeders are in your area are nice people; they're salesmen. What do you expect? They aren't going to be mean or abrasive because they're going to bend over backwards for you to buy their goods so their "business" will make money. As far as prior owners lying about their guinea pigs, you don't know for certain if your breeders are being honest with you, either. Whether you like it or not, money is necessary when a pet becomes ill. There is no guarantee that any animal you bring into your home will be healthy or remain healthy. All of my guinea pigs have been from rescues, shelters or craigslist. Many of them never had a vet visit. Frankly, I'd trust a rescue more than a breeder because the rescue isn't in it for profit, like breeders are.

guineapigman · Oct 12, 2014

I am just going to add a few points for the pro (responsible) breeding side.

When a good breeder is improving their stock the pups they produce will be of good quality and conform to standards. Most of these pigs would not go to pet homes but go to other breeders who would not be interested in getting mixed breed pigs from shelters, so no home is taken away from any shelter pigs.

To say a breeder is just breeding for a hobby is wrong and to say that it does nothing for the species, is in my opinion, wrong. They are trying to improve their guinea pigs, increase rigour, reduce health problems in their particular line etc. From what I understand about the lethal allele, it is only a risk when you are dealing with roans and Dalmatians, cross breed pigs with any white in them are only at risk because of interbreeding lines from what I understand. When the stock is purebred there is far less risk.

Also I want to know where this 1 in 5 pregnant guinea pig mothers will die came from. If you look through the pregnant pig threads on this site very few of them die, far less than 1 in every 5 threads end in a dead mother.

Saying all all that though, if you are looking for a pet I would look for a good shelter or rescue.

pigger123 · Oct 12, 2014

@guineapigman, you make some good points about responsible breeders. While I personally don't believe that a truly responsible breeder can exist, if there were a responsible breeder it would be as you described. You mentioned that the pigs they produce would go to other breeders rather than be sold as pets. A breeder is always, no matter what, going to produce some animals who are not "good quality" and are only suitable as pets. What happens to these pet quality animals? Does the breeder keep them as pets? Do they find new homes for them as pets? If the latter, then they are in fact taking homes away from shelter pigs.

Regardless, I highly doubt that the breeders the OP is buying their pigs from meet the standards for a responsible breeder, assuming that a responsible breeder is a possible thing.

I don't understand the supposed death rate either. There are obviously risks with breeding, but I don't think it's true that every fifth mother or litter dies.

bpatters · Oct 12, 2014

If I remember correctly, the death rate comes from the records of a large number of research animals used in the cosmetic industry. While they were adequately fed, they undoubtedly didn't get the kind of care that our pigs get, and that may be why the death rate is higher. But another reason for a higher death rate among guinea pigs than among some other "pocket pets" is the size of the pups in relation to the size of the sows. They're huge in comparison to human babies and moms, kittens and cats, pups and dogs, or even foals and horses.

I'll look for the source of that death rate and post it here if I can find it. I do remember it as being a reputable source, not just a guess by someone.

daisy1cow · Oct 12, 2014

Whether you pig is bought at a pet store or "rescued" they all come from a breeder regardless. So whether you are the second or third owner, that pig came from a breeder originally. But if rests your mind to tell yourself you "rescued" your pig,
I love my chicken and waffles unconditionally. I "rescued" them from an ad on craigslist, but she bought them at Petco. So in a round about way did I not support Petco and breeders?
Guinea pigs just don't drop out of heaven or are in the cabbage patch. More often than not, they come from a breeder.
If the stores quit selling animals, where would they come from??? We would just not have animals any more? If we bred them with the neighbors animal, isn't that breeding?
I bought my corgi from a very reputable breeder here in town. I would rather do that than from a pet store, but it was still a breeder. ALthough she had a great reputation and clean and the whole nine yards, she was a breeder and I have no regrets.
I get it all and respect everyone for the beliefs, just my two cents worth.

pigger123 · Oct 12, 2014

@daisy1cow
You're not supporting a pet store or breeder by rescuing pigs that were originally from a pet store or breeder. Yes, they obviously exist because someone bred them. But when you buy your animal directly from the breeder, you're telling them to please keep breeding. When you rescue a "secondhand" animal, you're sending the message that there isn't a demand for breeding because there are already enough animals for you adopt without buying from a breeder.

Even if all the breeders and pet stores in the world miraculously ceased to exist, guinea pigs would not go extinct. There will always be accidental pregnancies from missexing, or boars escaping and getting with a female, or baby boys not being separated once they're sexually mature, or some other reason. If even accidental breeding somehow didn't happen, then maybe there could be a few very responsible breeders who keep the species alive without causing overpopulation. That would never happen though.

daisy1cow · Oct 12, 2014

To a point @pigger123, they still all came from a breeder.

But you agree there are responsible breeders though.

LuvCavysLuvCats · Oct 12, 2014

@daisy1cow Yes they did and by adopting one that someone else bought at a pet store rather than buying another one of their "stock", you are telling the breeders ENOUGH.

1+1-1 does not equal two.

Someone bought a pig at a pet store and is now getting rid of it and you're going to adopt it OR you could just go buy a different piggy at the pet shop too. Which choice will sell more of the product? Well the first choice only one is being sold and the second, two are being sold.

If you adopt that guinea pig on craigslist that had once been bought from a pet shop... Will that pet shop get another pay day from that particular pig? No. So you’re not supporting them plus the demand goes down. You buy from a pet shop instead and ignore that other guinea pig, you are supporting them by putting money in their hands and the demand goes up.

The end goal is to have no more guinea pigs sold in pet shops. (Yes it can be done, it's been done for other animals that used to be sold in pet shops.) The only way to do that is to stop buying guinea pigs from pet shops. If no one buys them, they won't sell them. Pet mills and back yard breeders will stop breeding them to sell to pet shops.

pinky · Oct 12, 2014

daisy1cow said:
Whether you pig is bought at a pet store or "rescued" they all come from a breeder regardless. So whether you are the second or third owner, that pig came from a breeder originally. But if rests your mind to tell yourself you "rescued" your pig,
I love my chicken and waffles unconditionally. I "rescued" them from an ad on craigslist, but she bought them at Petco. So in a round about way did I not support Petco and breeders?
Guinea pigs just don't drop out of heaven or are in the cabbage patch. More often than not, they come from a breeder.
If the stores quit selling animals, where would they come from??? We would just not have animals any more? If we bred them with the neighbors animal, isn't that breeding?
I bought my corgi from a very reputable breeder here in town. I would rather do that than from a pet store, but it was still a breeder. ALthough she had a great reputation and clean and the whole nine yards, she was a breeder and I have no regrets.
I get it all and respect everyone for the beliefs, just my two cents worth.

I don't agree with you. When you take in a guinea pig that's from a rescue, shelter or craigslist, you save one that could end up being euthanized. Rescues and shelters are about saving lives and compassion for the vulnerable. Breeding is about supply and demand and making a profit.

barbaramudge · Oct 12, 2014

I'm not even going to touch on breeding in my response. I'm gonna go off on a little rant of my own about rules. I gotta be honest, this kind of post just irritates me to no end. You knew what the stand was on this forum, should have read the very specific rules about what topics were/were't considered acceptable here. When you registered, you agreed to follow the rules. You don't have to like them and you can certainly disagree with them but you still have to follow them. The rules don't magically stop applying to you just because you don't like them. Frankly, I would have yanked your posts and given you the boot immediately but clearly you're being allowed some leeway, or maybe they are giving you just enough rope to hang yourself (as my grandma used to say.)

This is not a public space. This is like walking into someone else's home and trash talking their beliefs. It's rude and childish. You have your own opinion and you can cling to it if you choose but you are not entitled to voice it here. This is not your house. If you want to continue to break the rules here you may but more likely than not you will lose access to a valuable source of information and you'll have done without changing the mind of a single person here. I suggest you start your own forum. Your own house. You might be happier with the responses there.

pineapplepigs · Oct 12, 2014

Honestly I don't agree with breeding animals all together. You are adding more to the population when there are already enough cavies in the shelters. What would they do with them after they are born if they aren't doing it for a profit? Keep them? Why can't they adopt

There is no such thing as "responsible" breeding. The sow can have a spacious cage, the best food, homegrown veggies, all of the attention in the world, and a great vet but that 1 in 5 risk is still there.

Soecara · Oct 12, 2014

While I have never intentionally bred guinea pigs, I have had more then a few come into my care pregnant. I did not post about all of these cases on the forums, simply because I did not feel I needed advice.

Here is my personal experience with guinea pig births from sows who for a majority of their pregnancies where fed an excellent diet and housed in appropriately sized cages. As you can see, losing the mum was uncommon in my experience, but complications were not. I do not believe the good breeders you have found would divulge the number of stillborns they have had.

Caramel - mum and 4 pups all healthy.

Zhe - mum and 3 pups all health, labour much longer then normal and much more bleeding after giving birth then normal.

Xoie - mum and 1 pup all healthy.

Ginger - 2 of 4 pups stillborn, mum retained a placenta for 8 hours and for the whole time she looked like she was on deaths door. I strongly believe that if I had not taken her to a vet I would have lost her.

Star - mum miscarried 4 pups an estimated 3 weeks prematurely, mum was taken to a vet but there was nothing they could do for her and mum also died shortly afterwards.

Sally - 4 pups and mum all healthy.

Willow - 1 stillborn, 2 pups died within the first 3 days of birth, and 1 pup and mum healthy.

Fluff - mum and 2 pups made it through birth, 1 pup had a birth deformity and died before he was 3 weeks old.

Mimi (came to me extremely malnourished, a friend had found her in their backyard - vet exam showed poorly healed broken ribs and scurvy, it was decided she would recover her weight with me. It was found out by me four weeks later that she was pregnant, so it was decided she would stay with me until her pup were at least three weeks old.) - mum and 2 pups all healthy. All three were re-homed together to the friend who found them, as they were all girls.

I would also like to add, no matter what source you get your guinea pigs from there is no guarantee that they will live a long healthy life. As you can see, the reason I do not support breeding is from personal experience with guinea pigs giving birth. I strongly disagree with anyone who would intentionally put their animals in this position.

AmberCalzone · Oct 12, 2014

Is it really in the rules that you can't talk about breeding? Or is it only discouraged? Is it even /legal/ to say, "You can't voice your opinion here because I say so?". It reminds me of a small business that was recently shut down. They claimed, "I don't have to serve gay people because I don't believe homosexuality is ethical, and it's my business so I can make that decision". Ugh, no, they could not make that decision, and were shut down because of it. Just because you own a forum, can you really limit people's right to free speech, just because it goes against your own beliefs? If you make an open forum public (which this is, by letting USRs sign up and post) you should have to allow all view points and opinions. Just because it's yours doesn't mean you can tyrant over it and ignore laws by limiting speech. I'm not saying that this is what is happening here, I honestly hope that's not the case (which I'm assuming it isn't, seeing as MODs have posted on this thread). But I firmly believe that as long as everything stays respectful, all viewpoints should be allowed.

ETA: (In reply to barbaramudge's rant)

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I am not against breeders. (Rant)

Lovecavy13

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CavyMama

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AmberCalzone

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ginipigsinspace

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labgirl5

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pigger123

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Princess_Piggie

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pinky

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guineapigman

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pigger123

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bpatters

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daisy1cow

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pigger123

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daisy1cow

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LuvCavysLuvCats

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pinky

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pineapplepigs

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