Getting Along Being Pushed Out?

[VoodooJoint]

I breed to improve the condition and the quality of my breeds.

How do you accomplish this? Do you base your breedings off of the extensive genetic, DNA and health work-ups a veterinarian has done on your animals? How many generations back do these work-ups go? I know that the very best and responsible breeders insist on at least a 7 generation pedigree with health testing but perhaps it's less in guinea pigs? Maybe 5 generations? I can't imagine it could be less then that to have a working understanding of the genetics and health issues. After all, these things don't reflect in spots, markings, coat quality or coloring. Well, except for satins and skinnies/baldwins. Their particular coats immediately give away the serious and underlying health issues.

Those genetic markers and anomalies your testings have found, along with your vast comprehension of working genetics, would be crucial for any sort of breeding. Without it you would be blind to what you are actually doing and all you would have to base your breedings on would be looks and coloring! That would be ridiculous wouldn't it? Can you imagine someone being that irresponsible with living creatures?!

 

[TwilightStar]

I breed and show. I breed to improve the condition and the quality of my breeds. I do not give away my pigs, and the few times I have , I only gave them to my close friends, in same sex pairs. And yes I love my cavies, and don't tell me that I don't because I breed.

That's hilarious! Better the breed? There's nothing wrong with the breeds of guinea pigs, and if you were aware of anything relating to "evolution", you would know variety is the key and breeding for certain qualities also isolates defects that would not show up as often as it would in a mixed breed. The reason animals breed through sexual reproduction and are not asexual is to give a bigger variety of genes to better adapt to their environment.You are breeding to show, which is to simply make them look pretty, much like dolls. However, these animals have feelings and responds to pain and stress. I think you have the wrong hobby.

 

[louie_joey]

If you love your pigs as much as you claim, are you willing to rehome as many as nessecary if you end up having too many and not being able to give them the proper care required?

 

[SFailed186]

That's hilarious! Better the breed? There's nothing wrong with the breeds of guinea pigs, and if you were aware of anything relating to "evolution", you would know variety is the key and breeding for certain qualities also isolates defects that would not show up as often as it would in a mixed breed. The reason animals breed through sexual reproduction and are not asexual is to give a bigger variety of genes to better adapt to their environment.You are breeding to show, which is to simply make them look pretty, much like dolls. However, these animals have feelings and responds to pain and stress. I think you have the wrong hobby.

I couldn't have said this better myself. Take a simple high school biology course (I took advanced biology) and you will learn about the points that my sister made.

More often than not, mixed breeds are healthier than purebreds. The more of a mix an animal is, the wider the gene pool they have and they are more likely to show the positive aspects of the breeds rather than showing the dominate negative side.

Animals naturally choose different breeds. Well, a better way to say it is that they don't show a preference with breeds. A yorkie, for example, would not ONLY mate with another yorkie and nothing else. They could and would mate with a Maltese as well. They do this to adapt. To change. To improve.

 

[guineapiggirl94]

For crying out loud. You don't approve. I get that. I will no longer be posting on this thread, as I am finding it harder to post level headed and reasonable replies.

 

[Nogger&Friday]

I breed and show. I breed to improve the condition and the quality of my breeds. I do not give away my pigs, and the few times I have , I only gave them to my close friends, in same sex pairs. And yes I love my cavies, and don't tell me that I don't because I breed.

Sorry are you saying the current pigs aren't of a high enough 'quality' for you?!
Why do you need to show? Just for a ribbon, just to look good or for 'enjoyment'! I've been to a show and It didn't look fun at all! Is putting your pigs through all that stress for ribbons really fair?
If you don't want to be 'yelled at' or 'pushed out' don't come on here and almost promote what you do!

 

[DalesLass]

extensive genetic, DNA and health work-ups a veterinarian has done on your animals? ........Those genetic markers and anomalies your testings have found ....

The OP is in the UK. There are no genetic tests whatsoever available for cavies in the UK.
Could you let us know which tests are available in USA?

 

[Paula]

The OP is in the UK. There are no genetic tests whatsoever available for cavies in the UK.

...Then maybe it's a good idea not to breed them, then? Sorry, but to me it seems like that would be a great reason to avoid breeding altogether rather than free license to do whatever you want.

 

[VoodooJoint]

The OP is in the UK. There are no genetic tests whatsoever available for cavies in the UK.
Could you let us know which tests are available in USA?

Genetic testing is available EVERYWHERE. Breeders, especially of small animals just tend not to do it because it's expensive and they have convinced themselves that doing well on the show table means the animal is a good breeding candidate.

Here are some labs that the rare, responsible breeder can use if they actually were concerned about their animals and were truly breeding to better the breed.
(broken link removed)
Genetic Testing for Pets
(broken link removed)

Now, if those labs don't do genetic work-ups on GPs then it would be because there has not been a demand for it. If that demand doesn't exist it says something about the breeders' lack of actual care, commitment and veracity when they say they are breeding for health.

Where is that post CavySpirt made here about a breeders standard of developing healthy animals? Ah, yes, here it is ...

Tell me again, what exactly are your methods for breeding for health? Here's the answer:

• Pig looks good.
• Seems healthy enough.
• Breed her.
• Litter dies.
• Damn.
• Life is messy.
• Breed her again.
• Maybe I'm done.
• Sell her to another breeder.
• Breed her again.
• Maybe this breeder is done.
• Cull her.
• Sell to a wholesaler or raptor farm or pet store or any person willing to buy her or another breeder.
• And anywhere in there, stick her or her pups on the show table--because hey, we breed for health!
• Who cares what health issues show up later. She was cute--by our extremely well-defined cuteness standards.

THIS is responsible breeding as prescribed by ... the ACBA.



What a bunch of hoohaw. By definition alone, you have no clue what the current physical or health condition is of the vast majority of your pigs. And you must have some magical pigs. I'd like to get some of that fairy dust you must be feeding them. To claim that none of your hundreds of pigs has ever gotten a URI (let alone anything else)--is, quite frankly, ridiculous. And because you have no clue of the health status of the majority of your pigs, you have no clue what the heck you are doing as for breeding for 'health.'

 

[VoodooJoint]

For crying out loud. You don't approve. I get that. I will no longer be posting on this thread, as I am finding it harder to post level headed and reasonable replies.

Why don't you try just truthfully answering the questions that have been thus far asked of you? You lack of answers leave people to believe that you don't have satisfactory answers to give.

 

[DalesLass]

OK, I have re-read VoodooJoint's post and now realise that it was probably just sarcasm.
I was wondering if one of the universities that had a lot of expertise in animal genetic testing (i.e. Davis California) had come up with something new. There is a UK cavy rescue website that mentions DNA testing for satins as if it was actually available. I was hoping to find some facts.


Edited to add that I wrote this before I saw Voodoojoint's next post.
Can I repeat that there is currently no genetic testing for cavies; if there were, despite your comments I can assure you that if genetic tests were available there are breeders in UK that would use them.

 

[CavySpirit]

Hey VJ, thanks for finding that. Forgot all about it. It's still true.

 

[DalesLass]

Genetic testing is available EVERYWHERE. Breeders, especially of small animals just tend not to do it because it's expensive and they have convinced themselves that doing well on the show table means the animal is a good breeding candidate.

.

There are no tests for cavies on the websites you list. I have just had a look on the Davis California website; the range of tests increases every time I look but there are stil no tests for cavies.
Test Services
It is not expensive. Many of the tests cost as little as 40 dollars (approx 26 GBP) which is unbelievably cheap given the cost of initial research.

I hope no-one is suggesting that if cavy breeders could have a definitive test for breed specific problem at that price that they wouldn’t bother?

The real truth is that the cavia porcellus genome project has only just been completed (2008 I believe) and so it will be some time before tests are available - if ever.

 

[Cogni]

I have been crazy busy with moving and organizing and orientation and starting teaching the last few weeks. Now I just read this whole thread. This child is totally brainwashed to believe that breeding animals for fun is SO good for the animals, because she loves them and cares for them. I wonder what will happen to all those animals when she starts going out with friends and eventually leaves home? I wonder what happens to the occasional deformed or blind baby pig that will turn up in one of her "pedigreed" (=inbred) litters, or a pup that won't eat right away, or a mother pig that has a really bad time delivering and is hemorrhaging or otherwise close to death? Or the ones that are too scared to be show pigs? I don't think any of those animals are going to make it in her herd. The things people will do to animals to gratify their desire for 'fun'!!

 

[Shauna&Kerri]

There are no tests for cavies on the websites you list. I have just had a look on the Davis California website; the range of tests increases every time I look but there are stil no tests for cavies.
Test Services
It is not expensive. Many of the tests cost as little as 40 dollars (approx 26 GBP) which is unbelievably cheap given the cost of initial research.

I hope no-one is suggesting that if cavy breeders could have a definitive test for breed specific problem at that price that they wouldn’t bother?

The real truth is that the cavia porcellus genome project has only just been completed (2008 I believe) and so it will be some time before tests are available - if ever.

I personally wasn't going to comment, but was curious if there actually were any labs out there that would run DNA on guinea pigs. Trust me I have no interest in doing this at all! I have to say it only took me about 5 minutes of searching before finding a DNA lab that could (and possibly does) test guinea pigs.
The place is called Therion International. They say this on their site: "Therion has successfully processed samples from over 350 species/breeds of animals." They have tests for fish & wildlife, birds, canines, pets & domestic animals, exotics, primates, zoo animals and laboratory animals. I am sure that guinea pigs fall under at least a few of those catagories! So if someone (a breeder, I guess) really wanted to get genetic testing done, they could.

Therion International Web Site

I think the point trying to be made in previous posts wasn't actually asking the OP if she does genetic testing, but that they shouldn't say that they are breeding "to improve the condition and the quality of [their] breeds" when they have not actually done any testing to see what the DNA was before and after breeding. I would think that most guinea pig breeders don't bother, because it isn't about the quality of life for the guinea pig, but about how pretty they look.

 

[MaddysCavys]

Excuse me, although this is not my problem. It is wrong to breed or show, not all are the same. She could be one that is responsible but we don't know that. I believe anyone could post pictures or post in forums as long as it is not breeding, showing, or bad caging related. That is not why I am posting right now. I am now beating myself up over the fact I bought my 2 guinea pigs from a petstore, I care for them as best I can, they are at perfect health, and I am in love! I feel bad for not adopting & I do know whats right & wrong now. I love my guinea pigs to death and I cannot imagine life without these specific little piggies. I think people on this site are really bringing down the people who have chosen to buy from petstores in the past, I understand you want to get the word out there, but do you have to do it so viciously? It makes me feel really bad, & some what mad that people could be so mad about it... I now know whats right, but I also don't regret adding my boys from the petstore into my life, no matter where I got them from, they have changed my life entirely & they are just the same as any other adopted piggie. I just thought I would address this situation I am having, Although I am not trying to nag or complain, it is just how I feel.

 

[DalesLass]

I have to say it only took me about 5 minutes of searching before finding a DNA lab that could (and possibly does) test guinea pigs.

Yes, five minutes searching on the internet will show laboratories that do DNA testing for a wide range of animals but clearly you do not understand the services that they are offering.

In most cases it is only parentage testing - either for validating stud book applications, confirming the identity of possibly stolen/trafficked wildlife or for use in a genetic study of populations etc. Sorry, but in ‘genetic terms’ that is a very simple process and a mile away from identifying a genetic marker for a hereditary disease.

Let’s take the cavy Satin illness for example. Firstly, the research to do this would be hugely expensive; not only does the disease process itself need to be understood (three European Universities have been involved in research and not found a proper conclusion as yet) but the gene also needs to be identified and an appropriate marker produced to use in testing for that gene.

Whilst it is likely that they can find the satin gene itself (as the sequence is probably the same as the satin gene mutation in mice and rabbits) that tells us nothing about any possible disease linked to the satin gene. That would be yet more expensive research.

That research will only happen if it is suspected that here is a similar genetic disease process in humans. I’m afraid when you say that it took five minutes to find a laboratory that could do genetic testing on guinea pigs it is wishful thinking.

Secondly, it is all very well to say breeders don’t do full genetic testing when, except for the satin illness there are no other diseases with a known hereditary link. Just possibly there could be an inherited tendency to kidney/bladder stone formation as it seems to occur in certain lines/breeds. I doubt anyone would spend hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars seeking a genetic marker for guinea pig predisposition to stones.

So, quite honestly, genetic testing for guinea pigs isn’t going to happen any time soon.

 

[MaryGoodnight]

I'm kind of confused as to why you chose this forum, it's owned by a rescue it endorses a particular viewpoint. I don't think breeding is 100% evil, pet stores yes, breeding no, but you have to be creating a better animal health and temperament wise I'm not sure how showing your pigs helps that, breeding a certain kind of animal for a certain physical traits creates a lot of animals who don't have those traits. Two of my rats are triple dilutes, meaning they look like albino rats but carry genes for more desirable coat colors. That was a big reason I picked them, I knew breeders would want them on the off chance they'd get an entire litter of Russian blues. I'm picking them up from a woman who doesn't cull her litters, because technically these rats are not ideal, breeders try to get them out of their lines and have entire litters of Russian blues. I picked them for their health and temperament and because the breeder doesn't make any money off them and I looked for rescues first and by having them spayed there is no chance of people getting them in hopes of getting an "ideal litter", health was my primary concern not colors but that's not true of a lot of people and things like showing can unintentionally or not encourage people to breed for a color or trait they want, I see it all the time on facebook people looking for a particular color of guinea pig or particular coat type, or a certain age guinea pig. Or they think that breeding two animals that look the same will create entire litters that look that way. It's really sad and creates a lot of unwanted animals.

 

[DalesLass]

I'm kind of confused as to why you chose this forum, it's owned by a rescue it endorses a particular viewpoint..

I am not expressing a 'viewpoint' I have a particular dislike for incorrect information. There are not hundreds of genetics laboratories queueing up to DNA test guinea pigs for unknown ailments and it is not helpful to suggest that there are.

 

[MaryGoodnight]

not you VJ that was aimed at the original poster who I saw had logged on to this thread today,