Lethals Two possible lethal white borns today

[RodentCuddles]

As some of you may know, about 8 weeks ago we picked up 13 guineas males and females - for more info it here are a couple of threads.

https://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/threads/96166-Sweetie - Has pictures of the mother Darla in it
https://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/threads/96044-Mange-Mites-Herbie - Herbie is one of the possible father's, him and one of the other males had roan colouring so I always did know there was a chance.

Darla gave birth today to four babies. Two have colour on them and appear to be fine - although one of them is the runt so will have to keep an eye on her.

Possible lethal ones info so far.

1 was the first to be born - she has no teeth but appears to be a good size (I haven't weighed them yet)
2nd was the last/4th to be born - she has one top tooth and one bottom tooth, both teeth look abnormal.


My real question is (as I have cared for one lethal before but she was 4 months when she came to the rescue) when should I - if I should - start feeding the two little whites/possible lethals Crictal care?

 

[RodentCuddles]

*Critical not crictal sorry!

 

[RodentCuddles]

Held little Baby 1 again and she has one tooth!

All appear to be girls. Weights are.

Baby 1 (possible lethal) - 95 grams
Baby 2 (Colour and runt) - 71 grams
Baby 3 (Colour) - 82 grams
Baby 4 (possible lethal) - 109 grams

So all are good weights!

Here is a picture of baby 3

 

[bpatters]

Possibly. Probably.

Does the first one have no back teeth as well as no front teeth, or is just missing the front? If she has no back teeth, then you should definitely try handfeeding. Just be aware that she may not make it. If she has back teeth, it's possible for her to learn to feed herself, but it will be much harder than if she had front teeth.

If the second has molars, she may learn to feed herself. You may have to feed her food cut into matchstick-size slivers, and push them into her mouth until she gets the hang of picking them up.

I'd think you'd feed them like normal pups. They don't generally eat much the first day, but start to imitate the sow in eating the second day.

 

[RodentCuddles]

The first one appears to maybe have two small bottom front teeth and the second has four front teeth! Yay!
Would it be easy for a vet to se if they have back teeth?

They both appear to be deaf as when I clicked my fingers above them and clapped there was no reaction at all that we could see - unlike I did the same with the two other sisters and they both reacted.

Picture of the second pure white girl who has all four front teeth by the looks of it they just appear to be misaligned

Picture of the first white girl who has no signs of top front teeth sorry it's not the best

Here are some more pictures of the two

I know you can't tell me for sure if they are lethal's or not but what are your thoughts on them?

 

[bpatters]

They're definitely lethals. The teeth, the deafness, and the small eyes all confirm that.

If they have molars, they might make it. It's very hard for a pig that can't chew hay to survive -- there's just no way to get enough fiber in them to keep their guts moving without almost constant hand feeding. But even if they do, most lethals are born with very immature digestive systems, so even if they get enough to eat, they may not be able to utilize the food.

I'd definitely offer them some very thin long strips of lettuce and see if they'll get the idea of eating. I'd also try the Critical Care or pellet mash.

The other thing to do is to separate them and the mom from the other two pups every few hours for a few minutes to make sure they get a chance to nurse.

 

[RodentCuddles]

@bpatters

I did give them a small amount of critical care before going to bed last night, when they had it it really looked like they were chewing it but not with their front teeth so am hoping it's because they have molars. I'm going to phone my vets today to see if they would be able to tell us with-out causing mum and bubs too much stress.

It's half past four in the morning, and they're still here - I just went to see them and one was suckling on mum. Still 8 hours till they'll be a day old and past the first day but we're past the night.

Thinking about, I'm so happy that they were born here. It's more stress and worry for me, but at their mum's old home they were living outside with rabbits and the lady wouldn't of noticed if they'd of passed away until she found the bodies, she wouldn't know that they were lethal whites. Apart from being born at a caring private home, there isn't any other place I can think of that these two would of been given a chance.

ETA: I've gotten in contact with Australian Cavy Sanctuary Melbourne Shelter and she's let me know of wombaroo guinea pig milk replacement so will try to get my hands on some - hopefully they are in NZ!

 

[bpatters]

I'm also glad they were born with you. At least this way, they've got a fighting chance.

I've never heard of the Wombaroo milk replacement. We don't have anything like that here. We don't usually recommend milk replacements, because normal guinea pigs can do without it even if the sow dies. And other species' milk doesn't really help. But with these two, I don't know. It might be easier for them to digest, and to help put a little weight on, or not. If you do get it and try it, I'd start with very small amounts and watch carefully to see what it does to their poop output.

The most important thing the pups get from the sow's milk is antibodies, and obviously no milk replacement can supply that. So if you can't get it, or they won't take it, I wouldn't worry about it.

One interesting side note about milk -- I've just read of a recent study that says that one of the important things that a mother's milk does in humans is regulate the environment in the baby's gut so that the good bacteria can flourish and the bad bacteria are suppressed. I don't think they've gotten that far with research in other animals.

 

[RodentCuddles]

Interesting on the milk. I do wish I would of planned for this, I knew that there was always a chance as two of the adult males were roan, all the guineas had white on them and the 1st baby born here had roan colouring - I just didn't plan for this.

I've been going over girl names starting with 'D' and their meanings as their mother was called Darla so we're sticking with 'D' names.
So far these two have stuck out but am still not 100% set on them and still have to double check their genders before naming!

Delany - The challenger's descent - Angel from heaven (My girl who I named after Precious was called Angel)
Deleena - Little darling ( Their mother's name means Little darling as well)

ETA: Or these two;
Dede - first born daughter
Dawatha - The last born

 

[melynda]

Aww. I have nothing constructive to add as I've no experience with lethals or pups at all. But they are so precious. I'm rooting for them! They are so very lucky to have you to care for them.

 

[RodentCuddles]

Weights from today;

Dede - 86 grams (-9)
Dot - 60 grams (-11)
Deka - 71 grams (-11)
Delta - 99 (-10)

They've all lost slightly more weight then I'd like so am keeping a very close eye on them.

 

[RodentCuddles]

Dede and Delta are already reminding me so much of Precious in that they are both very vocal and loud!

I do think they may be blind as they will walk anywhere and bump into walls - but I'm not 100% sure yet.

They're not guineas to stay still right now...

Peering out from inside the snuggle sack

Delta pretending to be a T-Rex! Roar!

Dede decided that the snuggle sack was a good enough place to have a little snooze

I think this was Dede's way of letting me know that they didn't want any more pictures to be taken

 

[agirlwithink]

Such precious girls!

 

[RodentCuddles]

The last pictures of the day; mummy and 'aunties' were busy eating their fresh dinner.

It's not the best picture (my hands were full so mum took it!) but here's Dede being 'force' feed CC by me

Sister picture!
Delta, Dot, Dede, Deka

 

[stray hares]

wombaroo guinea pig milk replacement

Oh jinx, I mentioned that in another thread. I've read in a paper that in guinea pigs, whilst they can survive quite well (this paper mentioned after the one week mark) without their mother's milk, their mother's milk still provides important amino acids that are lacking in their typical diet. It's interesting anyway.

They are cute little munchkins!

 

[RodentCuddles]

I have school today so can't weigh them at the time I've been doing - so will weigh them both in the morning and at night.

Dede - 82 grams (-4)
Dot - 56 grams (-4)
Deka - 76 grams (+5)
Delta - 96 grams (-3)

 

[piggydaddy1]

What's a lethal?

 

[RodentCuddles]

What's a lethal?

A GPC thread on them - https://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/threads/4190-Lethal-guinea-pigs

Lethal's are a genetic defect, they are born blind, often deaf, teeth misshaped or missing and are always white.
Often they don't make the first day due to all their defects.

I once got in contact with an nz breeder who told me that if a lethal is born they give it 24 hrs to die and if it doesn't 'naturally' die they then kill it because it'd be selfish to keep it alive - which is not true at all!!
I know a few people who have lethal's that are over 2 years old and are happy!

 

[Princess_Piggie]

@piggydaddy1 a lethal pig is one that's born from two roan parents. They (typically) don't live that long, and have various birth defects. Some can live long, happy lives, some don't last even a day. It depends on the defects they're born with.

https://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/threads/4190-Lethal-guinea-pigs this thread explains it in much better detail.

ETA @RodentCuddles haha, beat me to it! Great minds think alike though ;D

 

[piggydaddy1]

A GPC thread on them - https://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/threads/4190-Lethal-guinea-pigs

Lethal's are a genetic defect, they are born blind, often deaf, teeth misshaped or missing and are always white.
Often they don't make the first day due to all their defects.

I once got in contact with an nz breeder who told me that if a lethal is born they give it 24 hrs to die and if it naturally die they then kill it because it'd be selfish to keep it alive - which is not true at all!!
I know a few people who have lethal's that are over 2 years old and are happy!

Thanks for the information. They do look sweat however.