The Invisible Fence Debate

[blackarrow]

What odd timing this is - WHILE I was typing this message the phone rang. It was a woman from the rescue which the dog had escaped from - one of my neighbors had cornered him on their deck and gotten a leash on him - he is now safely ensconced in a big crate in my family room! I'm going to foster them for him, and may adopt him if he can adjust to being on invisible fence (which is a big "if" with a skittish boy.)

I'm so relieved!

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

What odd timing this is - WHILE I was typing this message the phone rang. It was a woman from the rescue which the dog had escaped from - one of my neighbors had cornered him on their deck and gotten a leash on him - he is now safely ensconced in a big crate in my family room! I'm going to foster them for him, and may adopt him if he can adjust to being on invisible fence (which is a big "if" with a skittish boy.)

I'm so relieved!

Invisible fences are not full proof. A former neighbor installed one to keep her two large dogs on her property. They would let out loud yelps as they'd hop over the line and run away. She had the company out quite a few times to make adjustments but it never worked. They would jump the line anytime someone approached the property or they had an incentive to get loose. Hearing them whine and cry when they'd getted zapped made me feel really sorry for them.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

I know they're not foolproof - no fence is foolproof, in fact. They are certainly not appropriate for all dogs, but it is about the only thing which contains some dogs effectively (including one of mine, who was a dedicated fence jumper/climber/diggerouter/breaker before she lived with me).

It doesn't sound like an adjustment problem was the issue - it sounds like the dogs weren't trained to know what to do to avoid triggering the fence.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I know they're not foolproof - no fence is foolproof, in fact. They are certainly not appropriate for all dogs, but it is about the only thing which contains some dogs effectively (including one of mine, who was a dedicated fence jumper/climber/diggerouter/breaker before she lived with me).

It doesn't sound like an adjustment problem was the issue - it sounds like the dogs weren't trained to know what to do to avoid triggering the fence.

The dogs were big. I thought their size might have been a factor, too. Plus, they were very aggressive. One was a wolf hybrid and the other was a German Shepherd mix.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I know they're not foolproof - no fence is foolproof, in fact. They are certainly not appropriate for all dogs, but it is about the only thing which contains some dogs effectively (including one of mine, who was a dedicated fence jumper/climber/diggerouter/breaker before she lived with me).

It doesn't sound like an adjustment problem was the issue - it sounds like the dogs weren't trained to know what to do to avoid triggering the fence.

If a dog has a strong enough incentive to get over an invisible fence, a shock won't stop them. I know it does work for a lot of dogs, but a dog that is aggressive should never be solely contained by an invisible fence. The two dogs across the street from me went after a neighbor's dog while their young son was walking them. The more aggressive of the two attacked his chihuahua. Fortunately, they didn't go after the boy. Another neighbor ran out and resorted to kicking the dog to get him off the chihuahua, which was injured. The dogs ran back to the house, over the invisible fence. The police were called but the neighbor wasn't home. Believe it or not, she only got a fine because the dogs didn't bite the kid and it was the first time it attacked an animal. She finally ended up moving, though, because there were so many complaints about the dogs running loose. We're unincorporated so I think the laws probably vary by jurisdiction. My sister who lives in MI was bit by a neighbor's dog that jumped an electric fence. It was a medium sized terrier and she figured that the dog probably was protecting his property since she was walking on the sidewalk in front of their house. It made a puncture marks on the skin but didn't break the skin. She went back over there when the neighbor got home to let them know but the neighbor wouldn't believe that her dog did it. My sister was really nervous about letting her kids play out front after that.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

If a dog has a strong enough incentive to get over an invisible fence, a shock won't stop them. I know it does work for a lot of dogs, but a dog that is aggressive should never be solely contained by an invisible fence. The two dogs across the street from me went after a neighbor's dog while their young son was walking them. The more aggressive of the two attacked his chihuahua. Fortunately, they didn't go after the boy. Another neighbor ran out and resorted to kicking the dog to get him off the chihuahua, which was injured. The dogs ran back to the house, over the invisible fence. The police were called but the neighbor wasn't home. Believe it or not, she only got a fine because the dogs didn't bite the kid and it was the first time it attacked an animal. She finally ended up moving, though, because there were so many complaints about the dogs running loose. We're unincorporated so I think the laws probably vary by jurisdiction. My sister who lives in MI was bit by a neighbor's dog that jumped an electric fence. It was a medium sized terrier and she figured that the dog probably was protecting his property since she was walking on the sidewalk in front of their house. It made a puncture marks on the skin but didn't break the skin. She went back over there when the neighbor got home to let them know but the neighbor wouldn't believe that her dog did it. My sister was really nervous about letting her kids play out front after that.

It sounds to me like the dogs had a seriously delinquent owner and serious behavior issues combined with utter lack of training. I really doubt any fence would have been enough to stop them, being highly motivated dogs in the first place, invisible or otherwise.

Sounds like a similar (though less severe) issue with the dog that bit your sister.

You shouldn't be blaming the fence as much as the owner's incompetence and negligence.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

It sounds to me like the dogs had a seriously delinquent owner and serious behavior issues combined with utter lack of training. I really doubt any fence would have been enough to stop them, being highly motivated dogs in the first place, invisible or otherwise.

Sounds like a similar (though less severe) issue with the dog that bit your sister.

You shouldn't be blaming the fence as much as the owner's incompetence and negligence.

My comment wasn't intended to blame anyone or anything. I just think an invisible fence wasn't a good "choice" in either situation. Invisible fence does not give you a guarantee that it will work. They claim to have a 99.5% success rate which is very good but says that it won't work for all dogs. My point is that it's not a full proof solution and has drawbacks which could end up being a costly solution that might not work. An aggressive or unpredictable dog needs a better restraint than an invisible fence. I know there are many dogs out there in need of training and a lot of incompetent and negligent owners. Some dogs will continue to be aggressive, even with training. Plus, I'll bet there are dog owners out there who don't consider themselves incompetent or negligent, although they are. I don't know whether a salesperson would refuse to sell an invisible fence to someone with an aggressive dog or whether the company would have any liability if the dog attacked someone. I lived the nightmare of having those dogs constantly loose near me so I don't feel confident that this is a safe solution if a dog is aggressive.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

My comment wasn't intended to blame anyone or anything. I just think an invisible fence wasn't a good "choice" in either situation.

Yes, I understand, but that it wasn't a good choice in those situations doesn't mean it's not a good choice in any situation.

Invisible fence does not give you a guarantee that it will work. They claim to have a 99.5% success rate which is very good but says that it won't work for all dogs.

This is also true of just about any product on the market for dogs. I really doubt that there's anything that will work for 100% of dogs.

My point is that it's not a full proof solution and has drawbacks which could end up being a costly solution that might not work.

You mean to say foolproof. Not full proof.

I don't know whether a salesperson would refuse to sell an invisible fence to someone with an aggressive dog or whether the company would have any liability if the dog attacked someone. I lived the nightmare of having those dogs constantly loose near me so I don't feel confident that this is a safe solution if a dog is aggressive.

I can't think of a single reason why a company or single salesperson would be responsible when the blame is squarely on the shoulders of the owner, as I said. And it's probably not a safe solution if a dog is aggressive. But again, that falls back to the owners to know and handle differently. Not the manufacturers of a product that can be used in any way an owner chooses.

I just realized I didn't answer the original question. I have been fortunate enough to always stumble upon "strays" that are friendly, and I usually let them hang out in my back yard until we can locate an owner or get them to a shelter.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Yes, I understand, but that it wasn't a good choice in those situations doesn't mean it's not a good choice in any situation.

This is also true of just about any product on the market for dogs. I really doubt that there's anything that will work for 100% of dogs.

You mean to say foolproof. Not full proof.

I can't think of a single reason why a company or single salesperson would be responsible when the blame is squarely on the shoulders of the owner, as I said. And it's probably not a safe solution if a dog is aggressive. But again, that falls back to the owners to know and handle differently. Not the manufacturers of a product that can be used in any way an owner chooses.

I just realized I didn't answer the original question. I have been fortunate enough to always stumble upon "strays" that are friendly, and I usually let them hang out in my back yard until we can locate an owner or get them to a shelter.

Thanks for the grammar correction although I don't think it's very polite to correct someone's grammar.

I've attached a link that lists some of the problems associated with invisible fences. Shocking a dog is a very unpleasant method of control. It also places them at risk in other situations. I haven't had a dog in my adult life but I did have them when I was growing up at home. Every animal I've had, I've treated like they were part of the family. I would never use any method to protect my pets or my children that would hurt them in any way.

(broken link removed)

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

I know there are problems associated with invisible fences, there's no need for me to review your link. But there are problems with other types of fences (and just about everything else) too.

That you had to deal with some bad situations with invisible fences, though, doesn't mean that they are not suitable in any situation or that every owner using one is going to be as seemingly incompetent as the ones you've dealt with.

As a side note, I'd never personally use an invisible fence, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that I really *like* the way my fence looks and am perfectly happy with its practicality.

Beyond that, the dog I had previously would have been deeply hurt (emotionally) if she'd been shocked by it, and I'd never have done something like that to her. The pup I have now has such an unbelievably high pain tolerance that I really doubt a shock would be motivation enough not to chase squirrels or cats or play with other dogs. That, combined with the fact that he's also entirely too much of a social butterfly to let a shock prevent him from venturing beyond the barrier to make new friends makes the invisible fence a very poor choice for me. But it's up to the owner to know that and make the decision before installing and using it, see?

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I understand what you're saying but I personally believe that shocking an animal for ANY reason is unacceptable. I wouldn't want to test it on myself or one of my kids to see if it's tolerable or humane, would you? The fact that dogs yelp when they're shocked speaks volumes to me. You said your dog would have been emotionally hurt by the shock. It would have also suffered physical pain as well and would have probably been nervous when it approached the line. I have a friend who has Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog. It knows how to climb fences. She installed an 8' fence which has proven effective at keeping her in the yard. It was much more expensive than installing an electric fence but this took care of the problem of the dog escaping from her yard without any harm to it.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

I understand what you're saying but I personally believe that shocking an animal for ANY reason is unacceptable. I wouldn't want to test it on myself or one of my kids to see if it's tolerable or humane, would you?

Before using it on my pets, I would test it on myself, yes.

I think it's wise to stay away from using something on your pets you wouldn't also use on your pets, and I think it's commendable that you recognize it's something you wouldn't want done to you and therefore wouldn't do to your pets.

I personally think there are more effective and less painful means of control, but that doesn't mean that I can't recognize that some people might be able to use it both effectively and humanely.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I respectfully disagree. There are products on the market that are harmful to animals but are still being sold because of the money they generate and because we don't have the laws to protect animals. Pet mills are still being run and operated in this day and age when we know how awful they are. Yes, it is up to the consumer to decide whether or not to use a product, but shocking an animal to get them to do what you want will NEVER be acceptable in my book for any reason. And just because a consumer wants something doesn't make it right.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

Pinky, I've gotta tell ya, I'm about as fully "up" on what invisible fences can and can't do, and the types of dogs they should and shouldn't be used for, about as much as I possibly can be, thanks. I'm an intake coordinator for a dog rescue for a breed of dogs which tends to have a huge "chase" drive. We consider the dog as an individual as to whether or not we will place them in a home without a hard fence. There are some dogs (like one of mine) which we will ONLY place in a home with an invisible fence.

I have shocked myself before to test it - it causes surprise much more than pain - and I do not use it as any sort of a punishment for the dogs. They respect it and do not trigger it. I am in a neighborhood of 70+ houses, and we have covenants only permitting hard fences when people have pools, which I do not - close to 2/3 of the neighborhood families have dogs and invisible fence, and it hasn't been a problem here, at all.

 

[GPigsRSweet]

Re: what do you do when...

I understand what you're saying but I personally believe that shocking an animal for ANY reason is unacceptable. I wouldn't want to test it on myself or one of my kids to see if it's tolerable or humane, would you?

Yes, we have an invisible fence, and DID test it out. Yes, it was inhumane. So, we got something to decrease the shock by 50%.

would have probably been nervous when it approached the line.

No. My dog is NOT nervous when he approaches the fence. 1. He is trained where the fence is. 2. He hears a beep about a couple feet before the fence line. He then can calmly back up. He's not nervous that he might be shocked because he knows he's not going to be unless he steps over the boundary.

Also, my dog doesn't get shocked if he sees something outside the fence. He knows to stay inside. He's only gotten shocked a couple times. Then, he just knows to stay inside.

It's been great for our big yard. He loves to go outside and gets REALLY happy when he sees his fence collar. He's not at all frightened.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Pinky, I've gotta tell ya, I'm about as fully "up" on what invisible fences can and can't do, and the types of dogs they should and shouldn't be used for, about as much as I possibly can be, thanks. I'm an intake coordinator for a dog rescue for a breed of dogs which tends to have a huge "chase" drive. We consider the dog as an individual as to whether or not we will place them in a home without a hard fence. There are some dogs (like one of mine) which we will ONLY place in a home with an invisible fence.

I have shocked myself before to test it - it causes surprise much more than pain - and I do not use it as any sort of a punishment for the dogs. They respect it and do not trigger it. I am in a neighborhood of 70+ houses, and we have covenants only permitting hard fences when people have pools, which I do not - close to 2/3 of the neighborhood families have dogs and invisible fence, and it hasn't been a problem here, at all.

Your dogs "respect" it because of the negative reinforcement .... They don't want to be shocked again. It's not respect, it's fear. As far as covenants, an invisible fence is an easy way to abide by a covenant. I know they work most of the time... at the expense of the dog and I think it's sad. It's not a problem for the humans... only the dogs.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Yes, we have an invisible fence, and DID test it out. Yes, it was inhumane. So, we got something to decrease the shock by 50%.



No. My dog is NOT nervous when he approaches the fence. 1. He is trained where the fence is. 2. He hears a beep about a couple feet before the fence line. He then can calmly back up. He's not nervous that he might be shocked because he knows he's not going to be unless he steps over the boundary.

Also, my dog doesn't get shocked if he sees something outside the fence. He knows to stay inside. He's only gotten shocked a couple times. Then, he just knows to stay inside.

It's been great for our big yard. He loves to go outside and gets REALLY happy when he sees his fence collar. He's not at all frightened.

I'm sure he loves going outside. I'll bet he would love it even more if he didn't have to be afraid of going near that line. No animal should have to endure being shocked, even if it's to each them something.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Yes, we have an invisible fence, and DID test it out. Yes, it was inhumane. So, we got something to decrease the shock by 50%.



No. My dog is NOT nervous when he approaches the fence. 1. He is trained where the fence is. 2. He hears a beep about a couple feet before the fence line. He then can calmly back up. He's not nervous that he might be shocked because he knows he's not going to be unless he steps over the boundary.

Also, my dog doesn't get shocked if he sees something outside the fence. He knows to stay inside. He's only gotten shocked a couple times. Then, he just knows to stay inside.

It's been great for our big yard. He loves to go outside and gets REALLY happy when he sees his fence collar. He's not at all frightened.

I give you a lot of credit for trying it on yourself first. I just can't see training an animal with any negative reinforcement; especially something that hurts them. I know that my neighbor's dogs did not do well with that fence and were very aggressive, but it broke my heart to see them cry when they would cross that line. Even shocking them for the limited amount of time that it takes to train them is still sad to me. I don't think any living creature deserves to suffer any pain to teach them something. I'm not blaming owners for using them, either, because the fences are legal. I just don't think they should be an option since the training period causes them pain. To me, that's like hitting kids to teach them a lesson. I think that's wrong, too.

 

[SFailed186]

Re: what do you do when...

I give you a lot of credit for trying it on yourself first. I just can't see training an animal with any negative reinforcement; especially something that hurts them. I know that my neighbor's dogs did not do well with that fence and were very aggressive, but it broke my heart to see them cry when they would cross that line. Even shocking them for the limited amount of time that it takes to train them is still sad to me. I don't think any living creature deserves to suffer any pain to teach them something. I'm not blaming owners for using them, either, because the fences are legal. I just don't think they should be an option since the training period causes them pain. To me, that's like hitting kids to teach them a lesson. I think that's wrong, too.

I agree with the hitting kids part of this post and that is it.
However, I agree with the others when it comes to invisible fences. Children learn though pain, although it should not be done in such a way as spanking or hitting. When a child touches a hot stove, they learn that something hot burns/hits them. I think it is necessary for a child to learn from experience. They will not know why you shouldn't touch a hot stove by having someone tell them that it will hurt them, they need to experience it to understand it. Now, I am not saying that a parent should go put their child's hand on a stove in order for them to understand that it hurts them, it is just an accidental thing that can happen. To me, a similar thing applies to dogs, and whatever it is should be humane. They need to know that going beyond a certain point will affect them and that they shouldn't do it. The lowest setting possible that works for your dog is all that is needed. We have never used one, but I am not apposed to it as long as I test it out on myself first.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I agree with the hitting kids part of this post and that is it.
However, I agree with the others when it comes to invisible fences. Children learn though pain, although it should not be done in such a way as spanking or hitting. When a child touches a hot stove, they learn that something hot burns/hits them. I think it is necessary for a child to learn from experience. They will not know why you shouldn't touch a hot stove by having someone tell them that it will hurt them, they need to experience it to understand it. Now, I am not saying that a parent should go put their child's hand on a stove in order for them to understand that it hurts them, it is just an accidental thing that can happen. To me, a similar thing applies to dogs, and whatever it is should be humane. They need to know that going beyond a certain point will affect them and that they shouldn't do it. The lowest setting possible that works for your dog is all that is needed. We have never used one, but I am not apposed to it as long as I test it out on myself first.

I don't think the end justifies the means. People often learn lessons the hard way but doesn't mean we intentionally subject them to things that physically hurt them to teach them a lesson. My kids never got burned by a hot stove. And if they had, they would have learned to not do it again out of fear. That's exactly my point. Kids learn better through positive reinforcement. Even GPigsRSweet said that they have an invisible fence and tested it out. She said it was inhumane and decreased the shock by 50%. Her dog was lucky. I'm sure a lot of pet owners know nothing about the shock level and some animals get a strong volt. I watched my neighbor's dogs being trained and also saw them leap over it. It was really pathetic. Underground fences are legal and are an option for anyone to use. Shocking them, even in training, is not acceptable to me. If the shock used in training isn't so bad, I wonder how many of those with underground fences would be willing to show us videos of them going back and forth over it a couple of times.