The Invisible Fence Debate

[SFailed186]

One of the radio stations here partners with a local underground fence installation company to produce "Dog Collar Karaoke" every year. They start on the lowest setting and then ramp up. If you sing badly, you're shocked, with each round becoming progressively stronger. It's interesting to see level one, which has people grunting, yelping, and swearing then all the way up to the strongest setting when people 'tap out' (stop), are screaming, thrashing.

This cannot be taken seriously, though. One, there are actors, regardless of what you are told by the radio station, and two, it's a joke show that tries it's hardest for the best reaction possible. If it didn't get the right reaction, then the show would not go on because it would be boring. You can't make money off of a boring show. That's common sense, but whatever.

 

[Jennicat]

This cannot be taken seriously, though. One, there are actors, regardless of what you are told by the radio station, and two, it's a joke show that tries it's hardest for the best reaction possible. If it didn't get the right reaction, then the show would not go on because it would be boring. You can't make money off of a boring show. That's common sense, but whatever.

Well, it's a live show, and I've known people that were selected to play their various games, so I must know a lot of super dooper undercover actors and stuff. Also I am probably a paid actor by the International Association of Keepin' Down Shock Collars And Other Perfectly Good Training Tools Just For the Heck of It. Ask me about joining IAKDSCOPFTTJFHI.

 

[Feeorin215]

Well, it's a live show, and I've known people that were selected to play their various games, so I must know a lot of super dooper undercover actors and stuff. Also I am probably a paid actor by the International Association of Keepin' Down Shock Collars And Other Perfectly Good Training Tools Just For the Heck of It. Ask me about joining IAKDSCOPFTTJFHI.

That was awesome. But, in all seriousness.. Do you think they would actually pay actors for that just to get more listeners? I think not. Plus, not many people are going to call up their friends and be like "DUDE!! They are having this awesome shock collar contest on 94.5 right now. You've gotta tune in!!" Probably not. Wouldn't it be more like "DUDE!! there was this contest on the radio today...---" Yeah, I'm thinking it's the second one.

Personally, I would not put a shock collar on my dog. I'd rather put up a real fence and watch her while she's outside. Which, is what I do currently with my two dogs.

What about barking collars? We had one of those on my dog when I was little and didn't know any better...It was manditory where we lived.

 

[SFailed186]

Well, it's a live show, and I've known people that were selected to play their various games, so I must know a lot of super dooper undercover actors and stuff. Also I am probably a paid actor by the International Association of Keepin' Down Shock Collars And Other Perfectly Good Training Tools Just For the Heck of It. Ask me about joining IAKDSCOPFTTJFHI.

Yeah, and I knew all of the people who got hypnotized at a local show at my school. Of course they can't be actors! Thanks to me knowing the head of the school personally, I knew that they were mostly pre-selected based on acting skills so that they could provide a more entertaining show. A lot of the other people acted as well just to be more funny. I guarantee that people would do the same on a radio show. I never said the radio station hired them or whatever, you assumed that.

 

[Paula]

Well, it's a live show, and I've known people that were selected to play their various games, so I must know a lot of super dooper undercover actors and stuff. Also I am probably a paid actor by the International Association of Keepin' Down Shock Collars And Other Perfectly Good Training Tools Just For the Heck of It. Ask me about joining IAKDSCOPFTTJFHI.

Haha, very funny.

I think the point she might be trying to make is that it might be a little difficult to judge the value of an item like this as a training tool and the actual pain caused to dogs (especially any individual dog) based on a show meant to entertain, where people, actors or common folk, might be playing it up just a bit for an audience reaction, and, well, entertainment.

It might not provide an accurate glimpse into the actual pain caused, because you can't really discern between what's real pain truly felt and what's simply a reaction for the intended perceived effect on the audience. Though, I recognize that it's at least as valuable a tool to gauge the collar as, say, watching videos of people shocked with collars on YouTube.

 

[SFailed186]

Haha, very funny.

I think the point she might be trying to make is that it might be a little difficult to judge the value of an item like this as a training tool and the actual pain caused to dogs (especially any individual dog) based on a show meant to entertain, where people, actors or common folk, might be playing it up just a bit for an audience reaction, and, well entertainment.

Thank you, Paula! This is exactly what I was getting at.

 

[Adorable]

This cannot be taken seriously, though. One, there are actors, regardless of what you are told by the radio station, and two, it's a joke show that tries it's hardest for the best reaction possible. If it didn't get the right reaction, then the show would not go on because it would be boring. You can't make money off of a boring show. That's common sense, but whatever.

Oh, come on. It’s one thing to claim you’ve never seen it hurt an animal or that the end justifies the means, but to say that everyone is acting? There sure are a lot of people AND animals making money on youtube pretending to get zapped.

 

[SFailed186]

Oh, come on. It’s one thing to claim you’ve never seen it hurt an animal or that the end justifies the means, but to say that everyone is acting? There sure are a lot of people AND animals making money on youtube pretending to get zapped.

You can stop putting words in my mouth anytime. I never said EVERYONE is acting. However, you cannot be so ignorant to deny that some people will go to extremes, whether that means acting or not, to either make a quick buck or to entertain someone. Open your eyes.

 

[Jennicat]

So, it seems to boil down to the fact that anyone or any animal that has ever shown a pain response to a shock collar is:
1.) acting
2.) too young
3.) confused or scared, possibly by wind or something definitely not a shock collar
4.) engaging in drama
5.) paid by a radio station

 

[SFailed186]

So, it seems to boil down to the fact that anyone or any animal that has ever shown a pain response to a shock collar is:
1.) acting
2.) too young
3.) confused or scared, possibly by wind or something definitely not a shock collar
4.) engaging in drama
5.) paid by a radio station

Oh get over yourself.
That's not what I am saying and you know it.

All I am saying is that a radio station game show is not reliable in determining whether or not a shock collar is so unbearably painful that it causes thrashing and what-not. And again, I never said that the people were paid by the radio station (and I have corrected your mistake once already), but go ahead and lie or just choose to ignore me when I prove that you are wrong. That doesn't hurt me, it hurts you.

 

[Jennicat]

All I am saying is that a radio station game show is not reliable in determining whether or not a shock collar is so unbearably painful that it causes thrashing and what-not. And again, I never said that the people were paid by the radio station (and I have corrected your mistake once already), but go ahead and lie or just choose to ignore me when I prove that you are wrong. That doesn't hurt me, it hurts you.

Hrm, I seem to have missed that thesis paper I put out entitled "Live Morning Radio Programs: Definitive Proof That A Shock Collar Is Unbearably Painful Even Though They Are All Acting -- Even My Friends That I Took Along On A Whim". I should drink less.

 

[SFailed186]

Hrm, I seem to have missed that thesis paper I put out entitled "Live Morning Radio Programs: Definitive Proof That A Shock Collar Is Unbearably Painful Even Though They Are All Acting -- Even My Friends That I Took Along On A Whim". I should drink less.

Haha, what are you, thirteen years old? You sure are acting like it. And just to let you know, you are not witty or funny, so you can cut the snide remarks.

Mods, I am sorry if I am getting out of line.

 

[Paula]

So, it seems to boil down to the fact that anyone or any animal that has ever shown a pain response to a shock collar is:
1.) acting
2.) too young
3.) confused or scared, possibly by wind or something definitely not a shock collar
4.) engaging in drama
5.) paid by a radio station

Kind of. Here's the comment made more accurately:

So, it seems to boil down to the fact that any person one or any animal that has ever shown (for a public audience) a pain response to a shock collar is more likely than not to be:
1.) acting
2.) too young
3.) confused or scared, possibly by wind or something definitely not a shock collar
2.) engaging in drama
3.) paid by a radio station or other entity for the sake of entertainment.

 

[Jennicat]

Haha, what are you, thirteen years old? You sure are acting like it. And just to let you know, you are not witty or funny, so you can cut the snide remarks.

Mods, I am sorry if I am getting out of line.

It's difficult to take the conversation seriously when you look at the lengths that people are going to in order to convince themselves that a product could never cause pain to an animal. Even going to the point of painting a dog's actions as "confused" or "overreacting".

The arguments being made are nearly verbatim the words of the Invisible Fence company's representative: "Invisible Fence spokesperson Mark Thomas claimed even the highest level of “correction may be uncomfortable and startling to your dog, but will not hurt them.”"

In a stark contrast, a man was arrested and charged with felony child abuse for using the collar on a child. His argument was that she was "lucky" because he only set the collar on 4 and he used level 6 on the dog.

It's just such a startling contrast to me, especially considering that many countries have banned their use altogether.

 

[Res Judicata]

In a stark contrast, a man was arrested and charged with felony child abuse for using the collar on a child. His argument was that she was "lucky" because he only set the collar on 4 and he used level 6 on the dog.

It's just such a startling contrast to me, especially considering that many countries have banned their use altogether.

I just Googled "electric dog collars, child abuse" and found two stories, one in Utah and one in Oregon, where fathers used the collars on their children and received felony sentences. The collars used were those training shock collars, not electric fence collars. Training collars and fencing collars are not the same thing, as stated earlier in this thread.

I do not know how it is in other states, but here child abuse is always a felony, never a misdemeanor. So if you are using "felony" to make it sound more serious, it falls flat.

 

[Jennicat]

I just Googled "electric dog collars, child abuse" and found two stories, one in Utah and one in Oregon, where fathers used the collars on their children and received felony sentences. The collars used were those training shock collars, not electric fence collars. Training collars and fencing collars are not the same thing, as stated earlier in this thread.

I do not know how it is in other states, but here child abuse is always a felony, never a misdemeanor. So if you are using "felony" to make it sound more serious, it falls flat.

This case was in Wisconsin, so apparently a lot of folks like to use these things on kids.

Can you explain the primary difference in fence collars vs. training collars? Because here they're made by the same people and the only difference in collar is whether they're trigger by the fence wire or by a person at the trigger. They use the same shocking mechanism.

 

[SFailed186]

It's difficult to take the conversation seriously when you look at the lengths that people are going to in order to convince themselves that a product could never cause pain to an animal. Even going to the point of painting a dog's actions as "confused" or "overreacting".

So what, do you ignore me or are you not understanding what I am saying? It seems like the latter based on how you are acting. But anyway, for the twentieth time, I have not said anything about the dog being confused or overreacting. While I do agree with people such as Paula and blackarrow, I haven't said any of that. You're quoting my posts and putting words in my mouth. You are the most childish person that I ever had the misfortune to come across on this forum. And again, you are not as witty or smart as you seem to think, so give it up already.

 

[Jennicat]

So what, do you ignore me or are you not understanding what I am saying? It seems like the latter based on how you are acting. But anyway, for the twentieth time, I have not said anything about the dog being confused or overreacting. While I do agree with people such as Paula and blackarrow, I haven't said any of that. You're quoting my posts and putting words in my mouth. You are the most childish person that I ever had the misfortune to come across on this forum. And again, you are not as witty or smart as you seem to think, so give it up already.

No, I didn't ignore you, I explained why I wasn't taking the thread seriously. If you're determined to get snitty about it you can, but I wasn't referring to you and never said that you said dogs are confused or overreacting. There are 4 other pages of thread that you may want to read, and I was referring more specifically to the exchange between crazywiggy and blackarrow, indicating that a dog screaming, urinating or defecating, and yelping was likely just 'confused' and not being hurt by being shocked.

I'm not Carlie Simon, so don't think all my posts are about you.

 

[blackarrow]

If you're determined to get snitty about it you can, but I wasn't referring to you and never said that you said dogs are confused or overreacting. There are 4 other pages of thread that you may want to read, and I was referring more specifically to the exchange between crazywiggy and blackarrow, indicating that a dog screaming, urinating or defecating, and yelping was likely just 'confused' and not being hurt by being shocked.

Sounds like there are at least four pages of the thread you ought to re-read before you go trying to repeat it, because I've never said a dog screaming, urinating or defecating and yelping was "likely just 'confused'." If you were actually paying attention, I was talking about one not being able to judge from a video of a reaction alone exactly what is being experienced, and that people like you chalking it up to pain alone is just bad logic. Heck, thunderstorms cause reactions like that in some dogs, and it isn't because they're in pain.

 

[evilnumberlady]

It kind of surprise me how many members in this thread quickly fell into childish name-calling. It doesn't really help, because then people don't really take the other things you say seriously, even if you also have a good point.

I'd like to point out that an ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy in addition to being just plain rude.