The Invisible Fence Debate

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

My dogs don't go over it. Therefore they don't get shocked at all by it. Therefore there is nothing painful about it, at all.

They're not afraid of it, either. My female routinely sets off the warning beep. She then backs up, so nothing whatsoever happens.

Feel free to lecture me about how my dogs behave and why sometime after you've met them.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

Pinky, out of curiosity, have you ever shocked yourself with a fence collar - at any level?

 

[Cogni]

Re: what do you do when...

Educational thread. I had little idea about these invisible electric fences.

Where I live, I don't see dogs sitting unleashed in front yards. People with dogs have fenced back yards for letting the dog out to exercise, but most dogs live in the air-conditioned houses. (Keeping them outside in this climate would be considered cruel most of the year--it is about the same average temperature as Karachi Pakistan.) I live in what I consider a walkable neighborhood, but the only people that seem to walk down the streets are people walking dogs, and me and my husband who don't have dogs. People don't even walk in winter when it is cool, for some reason. I kind of miss living in a 'walking city'.

I know there are plenty of less 'middle-class' parts of town where these things do not hold, but probably the people wouldn't spend money on an electric fence.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

Installed yourself, they're much, much cheaper than a hard fence.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Pinky, out of curiosity, have you ever shocked yourself with a fence collar - at any level?

No, but I saw it happen to my neighbor's dogs many times over about a year's time so I was able to see how they suffered from it. Something that causes dogs to cry and yelp in pain is just not acceptable to me. It's my opinion but if a pet owner doesn't mind having their dog shocked, that's their right. If you haven't read the link I attached, you won't see that there are a lot of other problems associated with underground fences than just the dogs being shocked. The dog might stay in but that doesn't keep people and other animals out, for one. There quite a few other things that are disturbing about them, as well. I can understand that sales people who sell them play down the risks, but once you see an animal shocked, it's enough to question whether it's the soundest alternative. I know that some dogs can dig and climb, but there are companies that will install fencing 3' below the surface to keep a dog inside a yard and fences can be built very high to keep an animal in. I even know someone who installed a chain link fence that leans inward so the weight of the animal pulls the fence slightly towards the inside of the yard so they can't scale it. I know that my neighbor chose the fence because she couldn't afford to fence around her entire yard. The cost factor sold her on it and I think that's why many people choose the option. I feel very strongly against anything that causes an animal pain when there are alternatives. I just feel very bad for the dogs. I don't think any animal deserves to have that done to them.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

I think it's pretty fair to say that the neighbor's dog could just as easily have been yelping in surprise rather than pain. Or that perhaps the neighbors had it set too high, though I doubt that, because if it were *that* painful I would think they'd have been a little more hesitant to jump over the barrier to attack people (or for whatever reason) and back.

I think your observation that it's inhumane and terribly unkind might due more to the fact that the owners were misusing it than from the actual product itself being such an atrocity.

A pet owner having their dog shocked for the benefit of the pet (I'd say being shocked is far preferable to being hit by a car, wouldn't you agree?) is different than a pet owner "willing" to have their dog shocked for kicks.

And, if there are owners who are willing to "try" it on themselves, I really doubt that it's as painful and traumatic as you think it is. It's not like the dogs are taking a hit from a taser every time they think about nearing the dreaded fence line.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

I think the taser is probably a good comparison. And, as far as testing on people, a lot of dogs are a lot smaller than humans. And who's to say whether the human will get the same test volt that the dog will receive? I can't answer that. I kind of have my doubts that a saleman would expose the customer to a volt that would make them hesitant about using it on their dog. That's an interesting point, though. I wonder what the range of voltage is and how many people are exposed to those levels. My neighbor's dogs were large and they still yelped. It sounded like they were in anguish. When someone is hurt or in pain, I don't feel what they experience but I can read their body language. Their reactions are what made me question invisible fences. As far as whether getting shocked is better than getting hit by a car, a dog securely fenced in a yard won't be shocked or hit by a car. I understand that dogs only get zapped while being trained to avoid the line, but it just seems so unnecessary to me. I love animals. It seems senseless to expose them to that when there are viable alernatives. When you think about it, the purpose is to restrain the dog... keep it in the yard. Fences come in all different materials and designs and protect the dog. It's really easy to try and justify something that makes our life more convenient or easier. I'm not trying to criticize people for the choice they made, I just can't fathom using voltage, whether it's an underground fence or using a shock collar to train an animal, which is also very controversial. The shocks and other problems associated with the fence just makes it very unattractive to me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I've tried to be very respectful with my responses but I feel very strongly about the issue. The dogs don't have a say. We choose for them.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

Your opinion is absolutely abysmally ignorant if you're going to say a taser is a valid comparison.

I didn't deal with a salesman, I had a D-I-Y system, and the setting is what it is. I took the shock and it was absolutely no big deal. If I didn't know it was coming, I might have given a yip of surprise too. But if I had been hit with a TASER I'd be a quaking jelly on the floor.

Again, these dogs sound improperly trained.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Your opinion is absolutely abysmally ignorant if you're going to say a taser is a valid comparison.

People tend to resort to name calling when they realize they've lost their argument. It's an act of desperation because they can't respond intellectually. You are more than entitled to confine your animals any way you want. I don't agree with your methods, but I won't attack you personally. I do feel sorry for any animal that is shocked for any reason, though.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

Sure, you'll just go on and on about how much of an animal lover you are because you won't expose your dog (which you don't have) to the pain you imagine he'd be in (because you don't know, because you haven't experienced it like I have) and compare my using an electric fence to TASING dogs and I'm not supposed to take that personally. You're a pip.

Oh, and congratulations on completely derailing a thread about how to handle stray dogs to go on your own anti-invisible-fence rant for absolutely no reason.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

It's not only my opinion. I attached the link above which details some of the other problems associated with them. I don't know if you read or not. I know that electric fences are very controversial from other forums where I've seen address the issue. I never had an opinion on them until I saw what happened to my neighbor and my sister. Whether or not the training was adequate with my neighbor's dogs, it demonstrated to me that it was not effective solution in her case. You can blame the training, the voltage, the dogs, the owner, but all of those variables are present with every installation. There is no guarantee that it will work so I think there are better alternatives with less chance of failure, problems and discomfort to the dogs.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Sure, you'll just go on and on about how much of an animal lover you are because you won't expose your dog (which you don't have) to the pain you imagine he'd be in (because you don't know, because you haven't experienced it like I have) and compare my using an electric fence to TASING dogs and I'm not supposed to take that personally. You're a pip.

Oh, and congratulations on completely derailing a thread about how to handle stray dogs to go on your own anti-invisible-fence rant for absolutely no reason.

I hope this thread will keep people from installing an underground fence without doing extensive research to find out the pros and cons so they make an educated decision they won't regret later. Furthermore, I think discussion is important. It would be a sad world if people weren't allowed to voice their opinions.

 

[Paula]

Re: what do you do when...

Your opinion is absolutely abysmally ignorant if you're going to say a taser is a valid comparison.

Yeah, no joke. I've been tased and I can absolutely assure you that the minimal shock a dog would get from a collar like this ain't nothin' like it.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

Yes, and I do hope that their research goes well beyond the uninformed opinion you've given. I've known about the pros and cons of invisible fencing for years, as should have been obvious from my very first post, which was about me NOT BEING SURE IT WAS SUITABLE FOR THIS PARTICULAR DOG, if you recall.

Voice your opinion all you want, but don't pretend it's an informed one from having researched only one half of the story, and don't go comparing it to a weapon designed to INCAPACITATE, when it's more like getting a shock from rubbing your socks on the carpet.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Yes, and I do hope that their research goes well beyond the uninformed opinion you've given. I've known about the pros and cons of invisible fencing for years, as should have been obvious from my very first post, which was about me NOT BEING SURE IT WAS SUITABLE FOR THIS PARTICULAR DOG, if you recall.

Voice your opinion all you want, but don't pretend it's an informed one from having researched only one half of the story, and don't go comparing it to a weapon designed to INCAPACITATE, when it's more like getting a shock from rubbing your socks on the carpet.

I know that the reference to the taser wasn't a good one. I've never been tased and have never seen anyone being tased firsthand. I wish I could take that comment back, but I can't. I stand by everything else I wrote, though. I did see the reactions of the dogs, though, to know they were in pain. I read where you said it's not always suitable for all dogs and I agree with you on that. I didn't seen you add any of the cons of invisible fences, though, only that's they're not suitable for all dogs. One of the other drawbacks is that if someone lives in a community where there are predators, such as coyote, the dog is at risk of attack, while being restrained within the invisible fence. Malfunctions can lead to burns or higher voltage shocks. Some dogs become more aggressive due to the shocks. There are a lot of different issues. I only addressed the shock part because I witnessed that and saw that it was not a good solution in that case.

 

[GPigsRSweet]

Re: what do you do when...

My dogs don't go over it. Therefore they don't get shocked at all by it. Therefore there is nothing painful about it, at all.

They're not afraid of it, either. My female routinely sets off the warning beep. She then backs up, so nothing whatsoever happens.

Feel free to lecture me about how my dogs behave and why sometime after you've met them.

Thank you Blackarrow! My dog is not scared while he is outside. He also sets off the warning beep a lot.

I know there are plenty of less 'middle-class' parts of town where these things do not hold, but probably the people wouldn't spend money on an electric fence.

Invisible fences are a fraction of the cost if you do it yourself, like blackarrow stated.

No, but I saw it happen to my neighbor's dogs many times over about a year's time so I was able to see how they suffered from it. Something that causes dogs to cry and yelp in pain is just not acceptable to me.

Those dogs must not have been trained properly. Or, they shouldn't have an invisible fence. Because it they are getting repeatedly shocked, there's a problem. That doesn't usually happen.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Thank you Blackarrow! My dog is not scared while he is outside. He also sets off the warning beep a lot.



Invisible fences are a fraction of the cost if you do it yourself, like blackarrow stated.



Those dogs must not have been trained properly. Or, they shouldn't have an invisible fence. Because it they are getting repeatedly shocked, there's a problem. That doesn't usually happen.

Your point about the cost of the invisible fences was the reason I thought a lot of people might choose them without researching them first. The fact that they're cheaper probably makes people less inclined to consider any drawbacks....What a bargain.... The dog that bit my sister also crossed the line. I don't know a lot of people who have invisible fences so having two situations where the dogs cross over tells me it's not as secure as people might think. I have no doubt that once the training is over, many dogs won't cross the line, but it does happen.

 

[blackarrow]

Re: what do you do when...

I didn't add any of the cons of invisible fences because this thread WAS NOT A DISCUSSION OF INVISIBLE FENCES. It was a discussion of how to handle unfamiliar dogs, until out of the blue, you just decided that you needed to give me a lecture on how to manage dogs, despite me having devoted a very large part of the last six years of my life to rescuing, caring for and bettering the lot of dogs (both my own and several hundred rescues) when you don't even own one yourself.

 

[SFailed186]

Re: what do you do when...

I did see the reactions of the dogs, though, to know they were in pain. I read where you said it's not always suitable for all dogs and I agree with you on that.

Ok, here's something for you to consider...
If you were to accidentally step on a dogs foot, what do they do?
It depends on the dog, but some act as if you had just stabbed them in the foot. My late dog, Ashes (RIP), would yelp and cry for several moments after having his foot stepped on, even if it was minor/gentle. He was a very shy dog and weary to humans due to him being abused as a pup, so this is why he cried. He was surprised and scared.

This could EASILY be the same reason for dogs you have seen reacting that way. When I am financially able in life and I have the proper time, I plan on getting a dog and most likely an invisible fence. I will test it on myself first, though. Again, a taser is no where close to an invisible fence. Tasers are used to 'disable' a person, or incapacitate them as others have said, but an invisible fence is not meant for that purpose. It is meant to shock/surprise them more than anything. The minor shock gets their attention, it breaks them out of the chasing trance or whatever may be going on and they are able to focus. They can clearly see their limits.

It is not cruel.

 

[pinky]

Re: what do you do when...

Thank you Blackarrow! My dog is not scared while he is outside. He also sets off the warning beep a lot.



Invisible fences are a fraction of the cost if you do it yourself, like blackarrow stated.



Those dogs must not have been trained properly. Or, they shouldn't have an invisible fence. Because it they are getting repeatedly shocked, there's a problem. That doesn't usually happen.

That USUALLY doesn't happen? What about the times it does happen? You are stating my exact point. The dogs were not deterred by the shock to stay in the yard, although the shock obviously was painful to them by their reactions. They would cry out and yelp as they ran over the line if there was something beyond the yard they wanted to get to. They didn't randomly go in and out of the yard, they were chasing after people or animals. I saw the technician come out multiple times. The same thing happened to my sister. The dog darted out, yelped and bit her. Neither of them should have been confined by the invisible fences. I wonder how many other households use them and have the same problems?