Dominance younger boar challenging for dominance?

iamsnape · Oct 29, 2012

I think Elmo might be challenging Noah for dominance. He's not getting very far because Noah's double his size, but they keep doing the 'nose off' thing and whenever Noah rumble struts round now Elmo will start chattering away. Last night there was a proper load squeak amidst a lot of chattering but neither of them had bit each other, I checked them over this morning. They are both going through adolescence which doesn't help but this behaviour has only just started. Most of the time Elmo can't bare to be separated from Noah, it's just on occasions he does this. I'm not concerned about them really, I think they are just squabbling, but is there anything I can do to help in the mean time before they sort themselves out?

Noah is nearly 6 months old and Elmo is 3 months-ish.

iamsnape · Oct 29, 2012

Oh and they already have 2 of everything in case they aren't up for sharing, although most of the time they share anyway

LitaRutherford · Oct 29, 2012

Since Elmo is just a baby he sounds like he's being a typical boy and trying to test his boundries. I don't think he's hit that teen stage just yet but some start early I know. I might suggest extra hideys, to ease things since Noah is hitting those teenage years. If your lucky Noah will stop just as Elmo starts, because two hormonal boars can be a nightmare, especially if one tries to challange. That happened to me and resulted in one of my boys being alone for a while.

But overall boys love to squabble! I have three total and they only stop when they sleep. Otherwise they always seem to find something to argue about. Just keep an eye out for signs of agression, such as if they stand up on their back legs facing each other, or jump at eachother. And if you see them form the flying ball of guinea pig fuzz they might need some time apart. When my two younger boys hit their teens they both got bit a lot and they never made a sound so keep an eye out for that as well if it seems like their being aggressive. But from what you discribed they sound ok for now.

Agrimony · Oct 30, 2012

I'm not sure the best advice for this. I am going through this now with my younger boy who is six months old squabbling with my two year old. There was nose offs, rumblestrutting and chattering and one instance of hair being pulled out. I never witnessed a full fledged fight, but my younger boy ended up being bit in the eye, and is going into surgery tomorrow to remove it as it is unrepairable. If I were you I'd expand the cage now to try and help before anything escalates, and keep a close eye on them. Not sure that my experience is the typical one but it is really terrible, and I hope you can avoid it.

Agrimony · Oct 30, 2012

I tried editing my last post to add this but I did not see when my 6 month old lost his eye, so I cannot be 100% sure that it was caused by a fight. However, I have a suspicion that it was, a gut feeling, and could find nothing in the cage he could have poked his eye on otherwise. They snapped a bit before but usually when one lunged the other would retreat. I have a bad feeling this time Pickle did not retreat fast enough.

Also I am not telling you this to scare you but I have a lot of guilt about not taking more action earlier, expanding their cage or separating them, and I just don't want you to go through anything like that in case.

iamsnape · Oct 30, 2012

I was going to expand soon anyway because my wardrobe doors are finished so I have the space to now lol I only need 4 grids though and it's really hard getting hold of them here so I don't really know what to do :/ Noah's pretty chilled out generally so I'm thinking by the time Elmo really gives it some (if he does) he might be past being hormonal and not care as much. They have 2 hideys at the minute, one fleece snuggly thing and a log tunnel hidey that they like to chew. They've got 2 food bowls and 2 bottles but only really pay attention to one of each. I do want to expand if it's going to help them but getting hold of the grids is a bit of a worry and I don't know what to do in the mean time :/

I'm really sorry about your boars eye

Poor thing. How were your pigs before this started? Cos my two are thick as thieves so I'm not sure if they'd actually really hurt each other or just warn each other off.

iamsnape · Oct 30, 2012

just managed to expand today (took some grids i was using as a 'base' off, left the corners there for stability though. i will order some more later to redo my base. i've also had to use lino instead of correx for the new area because my dad threw my correx away but i'll get some in the week), noah's now doing his usual thing in a clean cage - rumblestrutting and marking. elmo's also started rumblestrutting. they worry me...

Agrimony · Oct 30, 2012

Mine have only been together almost six months, I got pickle at three weeks old and was paired with Sparky right away, but they used to get along great. Sparky is very dominant though, and I guess Pickle might be too. I never imagined they would hurt each other like this it is still hard to believe.

LitaRutherford · Oct 30, 2012

Just to say my two that I seperated grew up together, had never been apart and were always sleeping with eachother or eating with eachother. Porcupine would even let Odair barber him a bit. But they ended up fighting so bad that Odair bit Porcupine's neck, just missing any major veins. So I've learned even BFFs can have big issues.

iamsnape · Oct 30, 2012

Oh nooo...I'm scared now :/ But I've taken all the precautions I can

whistlepig · Oct 30, 2012

I've heard about the "bathing technique". I've also heard that it's very effective.
The "Piggies who Bathe Together, Stay Together" Game

Here is another technique used for harder-to-introduce couples or trios, especially when adding a new male to a bonded male pair. You'll only want to try this method if you are already competent at handling guinea pigs and giving baths.

	When you are ready to "introduce" the three, take everybody out and put them on the floor. Lay a blanket down and enclose it so they can't escape. Make it big enough so they have room to roam around. They will all notice each other.
	Watch their behavior closely. You will notice some things right away. If they hate each other, it's apparent pretty quickly. There will be teeth chattering along with more serious fighting. They may leap at each other and start fighting (it looks like a levitating mass of squiggling piggies). This is bad. Make sure you have an oven mitt or dust pan or a towel you can wrap around your hand to separate them. DO NOT USE YOUR BARE HANDS. Fighting pigs will bite ANYTHING, and very very hard. It will draw blood. Even if they are not actively fighting but are in "fight mode" they can bite. Make sure no small children are around where they could try to stop it and get bitten. See the dating game behavior above to help you determine if they should be immediately separated. If nobody fights right away, you can relax a bit. They may rumble around and mount each other. This is all normal. You'll notice a lot of bum-sniffing and chasing. This is ok. If they start fighting, refer to the above. The last option is the best -- instant acceptance. They will run up to each other, sniff, maybe mount a few times, and then settle down to groom the other pigs' ears or something. This is fantastic, but unfortunately doesn't happen all that often right from the start.
	If the pigs fight, or fight after a little while, give them all a bath. You can put all three pigs in the bathtub (keep the oven mitt handy) and run about 1 inch of warm water. Soap them all up at the same time with something that smells good. Use a small-animal shampoo that is kitten or bunny-safe (not a baby or human shampoo). The pigs will be freaked out about the bath and will forget that they are mad with each other. Don't get any water in the eyes, nose, or ears. Rinse them off carefully and well making sure that you get all the soap out.
	Put them on some towels on the bathroom floor. Dry them off as much as possible with a towel first. Then finish drying them with a hairdryer. Make sure it's on the WARM setting and never get it too close to their skin. Make sure your hand is always on their fur so you can feel the level of heat you are giving them. They will run away. Keep chasing them around a bit until all three pigs are completely dry. When you're done, they will all smell exactly the same.
	Try the introductions again, this time on a new blanket that's just out of the dryer or is completely clean. They shouldn't fight. The bathroom scare will hopefully cause them to bond together, and they will group together out of necessity.
	If the introductions go well, clean the two boars' cage very thoroughly. Use a vinegar and water solution to clean the Coroplast and throw all other items (pigloo, food dish, etc.) in the dishwasher. Clean any other hidey boxes or toys. You want to remove ALL scents from the cage. When you replace all the items, move them around so that nothing is in the same place as it used to be.
	Then put all three boars in the new cage. They will feel that it's an entirely new home and won't be so territorial about defending it against the new boar. Credits to cavyspirit.com This is technically for new intros, but I'm sure it will have a similar effect!

LitaRutherford · Oct 30, 2012

The bathing trick is amazing! When I reintroduced my boys after they were seperated for a while it did the trick. I did it once without the trick and that failed and then once with the trick and it helped. So definitally try that if they get into trouble.

But don't worry to much! Chances are they'll be fine. It's just important to not ignore the signs. I admit I left them together longer then I should have because I didn't want to admit they were having issues.

iamsnape · Oct 30, 2012

will the buddy bath thing sort out dominance issues caused by hormones? thankfully i didn't have to do anything like that with intros, they were really good when they met. which is good cos i was terrified about the prospects of two pigs angry in a bath lol

yeah at least i'm keeping an eye on it early i guess. i've been checking them both over for anything to make me majorly worried (bite marks etc) but i've seen nothing - although noah has 2 scabs by where he scratches a fair bit :/ i think his nails might have been a bit sharp. i do my best to keep them down so i'm not sure how he managed that, it may because i don't like to cut off more than the tips in case he bleeds. but at least it wasn't elmo

LitaRutherford · Oct 30, 2012

It could help since it makes them smell the same. Since Porcupine was challenging Odair it made Odair rather quick to anger if he smelled Porcupine but when they all smelled the same he seemed to relax. Plus being terrified with only eachother to lean on seemed to help them get back on the same team.

iamsnape · Oct 31, 2012

Okay, I'll ask my boyfriend for a hand doing it soon because Noah hates baths and Elmo hates anything other than pillows so I doubt it will go smoothly lol

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Dominance younger boar challenging for dominance?

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