Reform in the showing world and 4H

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

I have the equivalent of a 3x6 cage for my 7 girls. There is a 1x6 L shaped 2nd story loft and a 1x3 3rd story loft. I clean and change the main level about every 5-6 days. I use several layers of newspapers, covered by a mattress pad then fleece on the main level and the 2nd story has newspaper and fleece and the 3rd story hayloft is just newspaper covered in hay. The 3rd story get cleaned and changed every other day. I have been changing the newspaper in the 2nd story every other day as well, but the fleece will usually last 5-6 days. I spot clean the poos every night from everywhere but the hayloft.

My girls seem to spend more time in the lofts than downstairs. Pellets are on the 2nd story and as I mentioned, the hayloft is the 3rd story. They have a litterbox downstairs that most of the girls use so the rest of the main level doesn't get as messy as upstairs.

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

I use a type of bedding (im not sure what kind) but it is VERY absorbent, so I only clean my boys' cage one or twice a week.

It does NOT stinky when I clean it though, it's perfectly fine.

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

Homemom said:

As needed. I have owned pigges since I was a child and in 4-H and showing Teddies as an adult up until the mid 1990's (now I own five rescues and picking up a Texel from a fantastic breeder at the end of next week, my son has expressed an interest in shows and there are a couple in our region each year).

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This forum is anti-breeding and anti-showing. Showing long haired cavies is especially cruel. 4-H animal programs are beyond repulsive to me. Like T said, it is really 4-B.

But, here's the truth of 4H. It's not 4H.
It's 4B--Brainwash, Breed, Brag and Butcher.

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I don't know how a cavy slave could get into showing.

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

slap_maxwell said:

This forum is anti-breeding and anti-showing. Showing long haired cavies is especially cruel. 4-H animal programs are beyond repulsive to me. Like T said, it is really 4-B.



I don't know how a cavy slave could get into showing.

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I am truly sorry if I offended you. Cavy slave I think refers to how many posts you have.


Have you ever bene invovled with 4-H? Not all the animal clubs are cruel - I actyually do dog sagety and training projects for 4-H to help the kids learn how to be more humane in working with their animals.

My former cavy club actually spent a lot of time discussing why breeding is not always good and need to be very carefully thought out. I actually talked more kids out of breeding than into it. My gail was education and not just blind "get out and breed for show" without knowing the ramifications.

A good 4-H club can be a very educational thing for a child. The issue is the leaders have to get past the old ways and into the newer concepts and give more opportunities for kids who just have a nice pet they want to show without havign to worry about if they are breeding, etc.

In the club I was in as a child, we had a pet class where the condition and health of the animal was judged. If the judge found something wrong like over grown nails, ears needing cleaning, over or underweight pets, etc.,m it wa smade known to the child and then education as to how to improve the life of the pet.

I learned a lot through 4-H from the good and the bad. I also learned confidence. You see, I was also in the scouts and had more bad experiences due to religion and left them. At least 4-H is non-discriminatory. Plus they have clubs that have nothing to do with animals at all...

I am not going to hide my background and it is from the past that I grow and learn. Yes, I was a member of rabbit and cavy clubs for years - but I also was able to seriously educate the clubs and members into pet overpopuation, the need for supporting rescues and health issues. By the time I left, I had worked and gotten implemented many changes in regards to health and safety at shows, etc. Clubs will never go away no matter how we fight - nor will breeders. I feel that rational education and gradual changing of ideals is needed.

I am sorry if I am going to a breeder for a Texel. I have tried to find one in rescue as a pet but they are hard to find in rescue. I have watched the breed develop since the late 1980's and have always wanted one. After waiting almost 20 years and the last five caves of mine being rescues... And looking since 1998 for a Texel in rescue... They just are not out there and I have waited for many years - more than the average human would.

As for showing. If done humanely and wisely, it can be a great learning experience for a child... I learned more about sportsmanship through my years in 4-H than I ever did in my years playing baseball or competing in the martial arts. I also learned public speaking and won a state award discussing (this was back in the early 1980s) discussing better care of cavies. Now this was back when 12x24 inches was considered fine, pellets only and bales of pine were the accepted norm. I went against the grain...

If showing is not done humanely it can be very cruel (and I do not like tagging ears or tatooing - so if this Texel comes to me untagged, she will never be shown as I will not tag a pig - I do not agree with it nor do I agree anymore with tatooing rabbits for show - better ways for ID need to be found - we do not do this with dogs or cats for any competition the identiny of the animal is based on the ethics of teh owner and if they are showing the correct critter or not, the ARBA and ACBA are behind the times with show ID).

But I also do not feel like I should be attacked for this. Yes, showing and breeding (rabbits) was part of my background. I stopped breeding a decade ago and had to stop rescue eight years ago (allergies to rabbits) but I still wil take any opportunity I can to educate the youth, even if it means remaining tied with 4-H. If I can talk one child out of breeding or get one child to build more humane cages... That is my goal...

And I have proven that even hard core agricultural clubs can have some attitudes changed for the better.

And one year I ejected DOZENS of animals from a fair because of helath issues. I started and chaired a health committee because of issues I was seeing at shows and such, since shows cannot be stopped, I did what I could to increase the safety of them. The committee developed strict guides, educated members on what to look for in regards to animals entering the property, if there were any questions, the exhibitor had to leave with all his animals. In two years I managed to reduce the illnesses significantly with in the clubs and our shows. Again, I knew shows would not ever stop or would breeding so I had to find the medium and work to educate and expand narrow minds.

Seriously, if it were not for my years in 4-H and clubs, I would never have experienced the other side and never known where I needed to target education and what education needed to be done.

So please do not bash my background until you know the work I have done to try and change attitudes of those involved and how I used my education through these experiences and experiences as a former animal shelter worker and doing private rescue to expand and change myself...

Sorry for the rambling. I am also pretty sick (fever, swollen throat, aches like I have not felt since child birth - but they make epidurals for that) and just am not in a mood to feel attacked right now...

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

Cavy slave I think refers to how many posts you have.

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No it doesn't. There are 4 titles on this forum. Administrator, (only T is an admin), moderator, (there are 4 mods), Cavy Person (this title is actually a demotion from Cavy Slave for those who don't quite fit the Cavy Slave mold and restricts entry into some of the forum areas) and Cavy Slave (the general title of all who join). How many posts you make has nothing to do with what title you have.

This forum is very anti-breeding, anti-showing and anti-petshop (shops that sell animals). How-to discussions on breeding and/or showing are not allowed on the forum.

Some members here, including myself, are very passionate about piggies, and we only want what is best for our furry little friends. I don't know much about 4-H myself and have not observed the local branch so I will not comment except to say that some 4-H clubs may be very bad while others may be ok.

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

That's fine and I have no intention on breeding or showing discussion (anyone who knows me knows I do more education on why breeding is risky).

But my background does include showing years ago and do I have to hide it? My feeling is I learned from my past and grew from it and am trying to change attitudes locally.

I am by profession a dog trainer and behavioral consultant. I am open about my background which included learning very old and brutal ways of training. I find if I am open with my clients who feel that the "new" ways are a joke, then I can reach them and make them see that they really are not a joke and based on deeper understanding as opposed to blind force. One of my early mentors will never admit to her past (and she is one of the most respected folk out there now) and I lost respect for her over this. If we ignore the past, we will repeat it.

Thanks for clearing up the cavy slave...

Would it be OK to discuss how to get clubs to try and improve things at shows (as shows will never go away) and change attitudes and get more supportive of rescues? I found in the rabbit and cavy world that though there are mill breeders, many supposed show breeders use shops to unload animals that do not fit the needs of the breeder. Basically the pet quality ones. It was easier than trying to find good pet homes. I got a few to cut down on what they were doing and be more supportive of rescue because I was able to get them to see that they were a big part of the issue.

But if people are going to show then I feel shows must be made far more humane for the animals involved.

Heck, I even got child behavior covered in our shows after watching kids stepping and sitting on carry cages, jumping over them, etc - talk about a dead animal in the waiting!

I would love to use my background and current positions (and as a pet editor) to start covering topics that though many may not support the activities, since they will not go away, that better education needs to be made to hopefully change attitudes.

Re: How Often do you Change Your Cage?

Would it be OK to discuss how to get clubs to try and improve things at shows (as shows will never go away) and change attitudes and get more supportive of rescues?

Generally speaking, no.

In doing so, there is an implicit assumption that shows are okay to begin with and only need 'cleaning up.' This is the wrong forum for that.

I most adamantly believe that there is a place and a need for such a discussion. However, it's in the club and show world--most definitely not here. Excuse me while I hit my own personal nerve, but, the ACBA (and ARBA) needs someone on the inside who has the damn balls to take on internal reform. There are a mountain of things that anyone with decent IQ and moral fortitude could do start improving things in those groups.

Preaching to the choir will get you close to nowhere fast.

If you want recommendations for other sites, forums and groups where more show and breeder types hang out, I can send you a list. And I'd love to be kept apprised of any progress.

Not all the animal clubs are cruel

That isn't the point. It's the tie to breeding and the tie to the ACBA with cavies. And since you are getting a teddie from a breeder, I'm not sure how convinced you are of the depth of the breeder issues. I most definitely appreciate your background and work on changing things. But, you've still got a toe in the breeder world. I have watched the breed develop since the late 1980's and have always wanted one. From my rescue end, I've had so many problems with Teddies as a breed that have come into the rescue, that cute as may be, they have intentional health problems bred into them. Not the definition of responsible breeding by our standards.

I hope you can use your unique position and background to effect change in their world. So, while you have that toe in their world, I'd use it. I'd leverage that toe to the max possible. But again, it's not here that it's needed or will do much good.

And I think this thread needs to be split off to the Kitchen.

Re: Reform in the showing and 4H

Thank you

And I do hope I have not offended anyone.

I am sorry if I am going to a breeder for a Texel. I have tried to find one in rescue as a pet but they are hard to find in rescue. I have watched the breed develop since the late 1980's and have always wanted one. After waiting almost 20 years and the last five caves of mine being rescues... And looking since 1998 for a Texel in rescue... They just are not out there and I have waited for many years - more than the average human would.

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I just want to know why you need a Texel. Why you can't wait longer for one to show up in a rescue (I know of some that have)? Why is it so important to have a Texel...instead of just having a pet guinea pig?

Maybe I'm just biased against Texels because I have Texel hair.

Why does one ever have to have a certain 'breed' of pig? Pigs are not cars, they are living, feeling beings. What makes a pig unique is the personality, not the location of rosettes and the exact precision and symetry of coloured fur. In times when I have adopted a new pig, I "introduce" the pig to my existing pigs and make sure they are personality-wise compatible. Things like 'breed features' are of no interest, they are a collective illusion shared only by a group of uncaring criminals who place their own interests above those of their animals. When I try to explain things like 'breed features' and 'proper rosette placement' to normal people I get nothing but wierd looks and people saying 'o-kay... whatever.' Taking back or refusing an otherwise good pig because of "problems" with "breed features" or breed in general is like trying to return your child to the hospital after giving birth... it's not something one in their right mind even considers.

Maybe I'm just biased against Texels because I have Texel hair.

Crack me up. You should try my new hair straightening perm. It's the best thing I've EVER done with my hair.

My hair is so frustrating that I've seriously considered relaxing it. With relaxer. You know, burn-your-scalp-off relaxer. It wouldn't matter if I lost hair because I have about 982374938 times as much hair as I really need.

I'm serious about my hair. This perm was so great. My hair is so manageable now and it's NOT fried. After and before photos. I literally got a couple of hundred compliments (dance friends) and I look younger. You don't need to have that Texel look!

Ah! T, you look so lovely! You're right, your hair really does look great with the perm.

Very nice perm T! That's really all I have to say, I think everything else has been covered. I'm so useless.

salana said:

I just want to know why you need a Texel. Why you can't wait longer for one to show up in a rescue (I know of some that have)? Why is it so important to have a Texel...instead of just having a pet guinea pig?

Maybe I'm just biased against Texels because I have Texel hair.

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I have waited for five years for one to show up in rescue...

I also have five pet guinea pigs and have loved the breed since the late 1980's. They are not common around here at all (one breeder in the entire state who breeds very vew litters) and the rescues I have contacted in other states that get them do not ship, I cannot get a caravan up to get one here and they are too far to drive. Trust me, if one showed up in rescue, I would put in an application. But I check petfinder every other day and go to all the regional shelters that take them in (I also check for Shelties for Sheltie rescue).

But since Texels are very rare here (because there are only two regional clubs and only two shows within two hours of here,) most cavies coming into rescue are from pet shops and I have never seen a Texel in a pet shop so the chance of one in rescue is rare here.

I love Texels and long hairs. I have a rescue Silkie (another breed not often seen), but in five years I have not found a Texel in rescue. The next closest breeder with any scruples, knowledge of genetics, health etc, is 500 miles away. And the breeder I am working with does not just sell to anyone. She is a tough cookie. So the chance of one of her animals showing up in rescue is slim.

Okay, so, I know he's not a texel or a silkie, but you just have to look at this gorgeous boy! He's longhair, which seems to be somewhat like what you're looking for, but even if it isn't, I think he'd be worth any texel. (broken link removed)

I think he is "putting us on", I see Silkies at the local rescue all the time.
www.weecompanions.com there are 4+ Silkies there just waiting to be adopted and he is telling us they are "another breed not often seen"... I don't think so. My first rescue was a Silkie. Locally the rescues don't adopt out to known breeders... as no rescue should...

Erm, just a quick thing. 'He' is a 'she'...