Showing Thoughts on Showing

[SurfingPigs]

How is it selfish? For a horse to do well in showing it has to be a good example of it's breed, has to have a good temperament and be in excellent condition. It's all about celebrating good breeding and how well presented and looked after your horse is. It takes lots of hard work to keep a horse in 'show condition'.

It is selfish because being "a good example of it's breed" is a human-imparted characteristic. Humans determine what constitutes "a good example of it's breed," not horses, and thus very clearly selfish.

Do you think a horse (or any animal) values itself any less if it isn't "a good example of it's breed", has a poor temperment, or isn't in excellent condition? It's all about stroking the egos of those who purport to be "improving the breed," is a complete farce, and applies to all types of animal showing.

I think my pigs with egregiously-mixed genes and miserable temperments are the greatest things on earth, and I don't need a stupid ribbon from someone to prove it.

 

[sarah0712]

It is selfish because being "a good example of it's breed" is a human-imparted characteristic. Humans determine what constitutes "a good example of it's breed," not horses, and thus very clearly selfish.

Not really but anyway. Very old traditions and century old stud books determine what a good example is. It has nothing to do with valuing an animal over another. But anyway. I think if you don't have any experience or knowledge of horses or british showing, then it shouldn't really be commented on.

 

[SurfingPigs]

Old traditions and century old stud books weren't written by humans?

 

[kittymalone]

I understand what sarah0712 is saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an animal (in this case, a horse) is bred properly (and yes, there is a such thing as proper breeding, whether it's wrong or right) then certain positive attributes are continued down the line, passing from one generation to the next. These attributes include health, tempermant, and the way the animal looks. If an animal is bred is born with certain genetic health problems then that animal will not be allowed to produce offspring that may also have the same genetic health problems which, to me, represents "responsible breeding" (as opposed to irresponsible breeding which involves many, many babies irregardless of the health and well being of the parents or the offspring thereby continued problems to unsuspecting future owners of the babies). Showing a horse and having them judged by these standards means that the owners took great care in the horse. It is a long standing tradition in many places throughout the world and very near to many people's hearts and family traditions, so please be cautious when making assumptions that may offend people.

 

[jadzia]

I don't like painting with a broad brush and saying that all showing is bad or good, but I will say that what you see on the surface at a show isn't always a good indicator of the person/animal.

For example, I know a person who shows champion rabbits.
If you were to go to a show that she was in and see her rabbits you would see the apex look for the breed. You would see bright eyes, lustrous coats, docile personalities. If you were to speak to her you would find out that they eat the highest quality diet, have ample vet care, are handled on a regular basis, and have their own specialized bunny room.

What you would not find out is that their specialized bunny room is lined with cages that are not ample space for a bunny of their size, with possible exception of the breeding cages. You would not know that all of their handling is not for play, but is for brushings and other look maintenance. You would not know that their only time to roam the room is when their cage is being cleaned, and that they rarely have each others company except when it is time to make more bunnies.

The bunnies that she loves? Those would be the winners. The others find new homes.

In short, these are not well loved companion animals. Instead, they are nothing more than a status symbol. Awhile back I saw a program on cat showing, and saw the exact same thing playing out again and again. The pet really isn't a pet; it's a trophy.

I won't go as far as to say that every person who shows is the same way, but I'm willing to bet that many are.
Personally? I love my animals enough that I don't need a ribbon to give me more of a reason why.

 

[SurfingPigs]

I have a heck of a time reconciling how forcing one animal to mate with another animal because of the genes they have and watching them give birth is an example of "great care," but to each their own. You're fooling yourself if you think that selecting which animal gets to inseminate which animal is representative of "great care."

I'm not worried about offending people; I find breeding animals and showing them while lying to oneself that it is somehow being done for the good of the animal to be quite mindless.

 

[sarah0712]

Old traditions and century old stud books weren't written by humans?

Yes. But these were based on judging a horses' confirmation (the way it is put together) based on how this effects the job they were bred to do. A very simple example, farm horses needed to be strong with good strong bone in the legs. These aren't humans opinions, just fact. Each breed has certain 'breed characteristics' and even though they aren't required to do those jobs in this day and age, it is still what the breed is judged on.

Anyway I thought we saying that it was selfish because it causing an animal stress, or harming of the animal? Not that the animal will value itself less because it is being judged against another. It is not about 'stroking anybodies egos'.

My horses will be loved and well cared for whether they come first or last in a class. If they were ever stressed or upset by the whole process, then it wouldn't be done, simple as.

Kittymalone, that is exactly what I mean. You just said it in a better way lol

Would it be better to breed any animal willy nilly so that there are all sorts of health problems, genetic problems etc. Or to select 'good examples' so we can have healthy animals that can lead a happy life?

I agree that other animal showing may be in reality a load of animals being bred just for the sake of it. A horse is a compltely different animal to that of a guinea pig so the two can't really be compared. My horses love what they do. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[kittymalone]

I think that most show animals are just trophies to a lot of people and not living, breathing loved ones. Yes, some do view them as prizes as opposed to members of the family (it's more of a business to some). I have seen some show animals treated in the above manner but I also know a breeder of rabbits (and other animals) that is the exact opposite of the scenerio mentioned above. It's CRAZY how all of her animals she breeds are treated. Yes, they are given the highest quality food, hay, etc and a lot of them are shown but they are also a HUGE part of her family and have free reign over most of her house and small farm (and NOT kept in deplorable conditions just to be sold off to the highest bidder). I am opposed to the animals being treated unfairly and living in a shoebox just to be sold. There is a reason why breeding is such a hot topic. It is not a simple black and white issue. Not all breeders are cookie cutter versions of the next so I will not lump them into the same catagory. I will not BUY from a breeder but I will not crucify breeders that are trying to raise healthy, happy, and well adjusted animals. I have actually learned quite a lot from breeders but I will not support what they do because I know where it can lead to.

 

[sarah0712]

I have a heck of a time reconciling how forcing one animal to mate with another animal because of the genes they have and watching them give birth is an example of "great care," but to each their own. You're fooling yourself if you think that selecting which animal gets to inseminate which animal is representative of "great care."

I'm not worried about offending people; I find breeding animals and showing them while lying to oneself that it is somehow being done for the good of the animal to be quite mindless.

So you would have any animal mate with any other despite the problems that may occur because of that. Genetic problems with may may lead to ill health or weakness which can lead to injury. Or breeding responsibly, making sure that these faults are bred out of genetic lines and the affected animals aren't allowed to reproduce. I find it less of a welfare issue to do the latter

 

[Scintie]

So you would have any animal mate with any other despite the problems that may occur because of that. Genetic problems with may may lead to ill health or weakness which can lead to injury. Or breeding responsibly, making sure that these faults are bred out of genetic lines and the affected animals aren't allowed to reproduce. I find it less of a welfare issue to do the latter

Pretty sure most people here are anti breeder therefor they wouldn't mate ANY animals regardless of health.

 

[nibbler100]

How is it selfish? For a horse to do well in showing it has to be a good example of it's breed, has to have a good temperament and be in excellent condition. It's all about celebrating good breeding and how well presented and looked after your horse is. It takes lots of hard work to keep a horse in 'show condition'.

I can see why showing of other animals would be selfish and unfair on the animals, but horse showing is completly different ball game. Of course I'm speaking of experience of british showing, I have no idea about other countries.

But anyway that's my two-pence. I'm not going to turn this into a debate about horse showing...

i agree with you complitly, i show horses in America and honestly the first horse i ever showed was a 5 year old retired race horse, when he came into the staables hands i was working for he was 300 hundred pounds over wight. know he compits in compactions and wins blue ribbons. it would be selfish not to show a horse. for one, most horse love it! and it gives them a higher perpurs then siting around your back year doing nothing. 2.) whats the point of having a magnifist animal if you cant show it off? XD just my 2 cent

 

[englishdaffodil]

A guinea pig could not possibly care any less about a stupid ribbon.

Well now, that's clearly not true...my guinea pig would be delighted to eat any ribbon you chose to award her.

 

[SurfingPigs]

You are creating one heck of a false dichotomy; Iwould prefer zerobreeding whatsoever. While breeders are "improving the breed" there are homeless pigs dying.

 

[SurfingPigs]

Well now, that's clearly not true...my guinea pig would be delighted to eat any ribbon you chose to award her.

That is true... my pigs wanted to eat their Christmas ribbon that was on the cage.

 

[kittymalone]

While breeders are "improving the breed" there are homeless pigs dying.

I don't think anybody will disagree with that.

 

[Delaine]

I have competed in both the conformation ring and the obedience ring with my dogs. My dogs really enjoyed the time we spent together. It usually meant a weekend away camping, sleeping together in the back of a camper, constant walks with friends, lots of pampering and one on one time and maybe 10 minutes tops in the ring. We had a blast. But, that being said they were dogs. They loved car rides and seeing new places. I would never show guinea pigs. They would be totally stressed out and it would not be in their best interest. Before you make a decision on whether showing is bad or good you need to know the animal, and the situation the animal would be put in. It is not a one size fits all debate.

 

[SurfingPigs]

My only comments that were in regards to horses were about breeding. In fact, I even pointed out that show horses are kept in widely different conditions from show cavies. The breeding is my point of contention. I think that having a hunting dog run an agility course or a herding dog competing in a herding contest is a great thing that encourages the animals natural instinct, the same as horse show jumping. However, if someone is simply breeding horses because they think they are doing their horses a justice by "bettering the breed" is the person whom I find a fool. Animals don't care about if they are considered best of breed.

 

[Delaine]

Iwould prefer zerobreeding whatsoever.

Then where are we going to get our wonderful piggy friends?

 

[SurfingPigs]

Then where are we going to get our wonderful piggy friends?

Rescues. If ever there is a time in the future when guinea pig rescues or shelters don't have adoptable pigs, then go ahead and start breeding. I think hell will freeze over much sooner than that.

 

[Delaine]

SurfingPigs

When I looked into getting my guinea pigs there were no guinea pigs in the rescues in my area. Rabbits, but no guinea pigs. I will not buy an animal from a pet store, whether a dog or a guinea pig. That is only supporting the pet stores who are supporting the back yard breeders in the area. If pet stores stopped paying random people for their guinea pigs, random people would have no reason to keep breeding. So that left me with a breeder. I ended up with the right sexes, guinea pigs that were NOT pregnant, two very healthy, well looked after girls, care instructions, and a support system. She was only an e-mail away and answered my many, many questions with care and knowledge. I DON'T believe in breeding for myself, I would feel responsible for that animal for the rest of it's life, but I am very thankful for the two wonderful girls I have. When the time comes and I need to replace one of my girls I will once again go to a rescue first.