Stones My guinea pig has a bladder stone for the 3rd time..

[Morning_shadow]

Hello,

This is my first time here. I have often come to this website for questions in regards to my piggies. Well.. My guinea pig Mocha had two surgeries earlier this year. Both for Bladder stones. The vet recommended both times to lower the calcium and give more water. Which I did... and now yesterday I heard him crying and now saw that there is blood in his pee.. I feel really bad about this. The surgeries here cost a lot.. and the second time I even asked the animal Welfare League to help, which they did and I am thankful but now this time.. I don't know what to do.

The vet will probably tell me to bring him over and do an xray which also costs alot here.. I don't know what I did wrong.. I gave him all low calcium stuff.. and lots of water. Don't know if maybe too many pellets? but they are the Oxbow brand.. Help..

 

[kathlaaron]

Oh I am so sorry that you and your piggie Mocha are repeatedly having these bladder issues ! Let me give you this link in case you have not seen or read it yet.

https://www.guinealynx.info/stones.html

Just a few questions, o.k. ?

1. Have you eliminated all fruits and carrots from his diet ? ( I know you mentioned eliminating all calcium rich foods, so just checking)

2. Could you list what veggies you provide him on a regular basis ?

3. Did Mocha have a 6 month follow up, as suggested in the link above that I gave you ?

4. Look at the ingredient list on the Oxbow Performance pellet brand, for I believe one of the ingredients is calcium carbonate, right ? ( I think it does, which is one of the main reasons I switched over to Kleenmama's plain timothy pellets)

5. Is an ultrasound more expensive than an xray ? For ultrasounds are really good for detecting stones too.

From what I read on guinea lynx ( on the link I provided you above) redcurrent bladder stones or infections is largely genetic, and no matter how well you take care of him and how mindful one is of their piggies diet, ect. it is what it is, and surgery is often the only option.

It sounds like Mocha is in a great deal of pain, I am so very very sorry. I wish so much I could help more ! A visit to your Vet I am afraid should be as soon as possible, for stones or infections in the bladder are so very very painful.

 

[kathlaaron]

I just wanted to add, that since pellets are the least important part of a guinea pigs diet, I would consider eliminating pellets completely, just be sure to add a vitamin D supplement. I would ask your vet about all this too.

I also hope that some people come on and give you some guidance, and help you much better than I can...for I have NOT had first hand experience with these matters, only sharing with you what I have read...since I saw your post and just wanted to offer any help since I am still up. I have been up all night re-building my girls cage, and it's now 4:10 am where I live. Warm thoughts and healing wishes for your little man.....big HUG for you too.

Try to think positive too..it might be a UTI instead of a stone...you never know.

 

[bpatters]

Cavyslave, exactly what are you feeding your pig, and how much? What kind of hay, and which kind of Oxbow pellets? And how old is your pig?

 

[pinky]

Some guinea pigs are genetically predisposed to form stones. I've seen it many times with guinea pigs that have had surgery for stone removal, only to have them rapidly form new stones. My vet told me that a rat owner had stone surgery performed on their rat 7 times. I personally would not put an animal through that. Sometimes females are able to pass stones but it's not usually possible with males. Stones are very painful for guinea pigs so if you opt not to have them surgically removed, you should get him on a maintenance dose of Metacam to ease the pain. They're sometimes able to live quite comfortably with the Metacam until the stones cause other problems. Then, euthanasia is the best option to keep them from suffering if the stones aren't removed. Once they have the stones, diet modification might keep them from forming new ones, but they still have the issue of dealing with the stones they have and that's where you need to make a decision on what to do.

 

[bpatters]

It's way too early to say whether this pig is genetically predisposed to stones -- we have no idea yet what its been eating.

And having a pig just live with a stone and giving it metacam is a fairly dangerous thing to do. If the urethra gets blocked with the stone, it's a medical emergency that at a minimum will damage the kidneys and at the worst may rupture.

There are some herbal preparations that may be helpful, but let's see what the pig eats first.

 

[pinky]

It's way too early to say whether this pig is genetically predisposed to stones -- we have no idea yet what its been eating.

And having a pig just live with a stone and giving it metacam is a fairly dangerous thing to do. If the urethra gets blocked with the stone, it's a medical emergency that at a minimum will damage the kidneys and at the worst may rupture.

There are some herbal preparations that may be helpful, but let's see what the pig eats first.

He's has had two stones removed already and it appears that this is likely more stones. It could be a UTI, but the only way to know for sure is with an xray. Plus, I'm not saying that he definitely is predisposed to them, but merely mentioned that many pigs are. Since it appears he might have a stone again, a diet change is not going to eliminate the stone if he has one. A decision needs to be made whether or not to have an xray done which Morning_shadow acknowledged is expensive. I'd personally opt for the xray to know for certain if it is another stone but I'm not the one having to make that decision. I was trying to show that there are alternatives if he, indeed, does have another stone. It's cruel to allow a guinea pig to suffer if a stone has been confirmed and surgery is ruled out. At that point, the options are let them suffer until they die from the complications you mentioned, have surgery which might or might not result in more stones being formed or medicating them to ease the pain until a decision is made to euthanize. Have you ever seen a situation where diet modification has resulted in a stone going away after it's been formed? I haven't and, if it is possible, it's not common. I have heard of males being able to pass a very tiny stone but that's pretty rare. Diet modification is good, no matter what the scenario so that's a good thing for any guinea pig. If a diet modification is considered to try and see if it could work, Metacam and an antibiotic should be given to reduce the pain and keep an infection from forming. I had a stone pig and we tried every possible way to try and save him. I don't believe that herbal supplements are effective (it did not work in my pig's case) although we tried corn silk, hydrangea root and mallow which were recommended by a holistic vet. I would strongly recommend the xray to really be able to assess what the options are.

 

[bpatters]

It could be stones, and they could be from the diet. They could be caused by the pig's genetic disposition, the food, the pellets, the water, or a combination of all those factors.

I just happen to think any discussion of euthanasia is way premature since we don't know whether these stones may be easily preventable or not. They may not be. But we're missing a major piece of information we need to even make an assumption about it.

She does need a x-ray to see how large the stone is and whether she can safely wait and watch it, or whether it needs removal. But even if it needs to be removed, I wouldn't recommend giving up on the pig until we know what it's eating. If it has a good diet that's known to reduce calcium/sludge, she might need to consider drastic options. But if it's getting Oxbox pellets, romaine lettuce or lots of parsley, and is in an area with hard water, she's got a lot of options for change.

 

[pinky]

It could be stones, and they could be from the diet. They could be caused by the pig's genetic disposition, the food, the pellets, the water, or a combination of all those factors.

I just happen to think any discussion of euthanasia is way premature since we don't know whether these stones may be easily preventable or not. They may not be. But we're missing a major piece of information we need to even make an assumption about it.

She does need a x-ray to see how large the stone is and whether she can safely wait and watch it, or whether it needs removal. But even if it needs to be removed, I wouldn't recommend giving up on the pig until we know what it's eating. If it has a good diet that's known to reduce calcium/sludge, she might need to consider drastic options. But if it's getting Oxbox pellets, romaine lettuce or lots of parsley, and is in an area with hard water, she's got a lot of options for change.

When my pig had stones, no one told me all the possible scenarios with stones so I was very uninformed as to what the options were. I just think it's far better for someone to understand the whole spectrum of options and prognosis and be realistic about the odds to be able to make an informed decision. If you can afford the surgery, that is probably the best option for the guinea pig. My guinea pig really suffered and it wasn't until after I had him euthanized that I found out that his life could have been extended with little pain. Stones don't have to be an immediate death sentence if they are diagnosed as many people think they are.

 

[Morning_shadow]

I have only been feeding him, cucumbers(everyday), carrots, every two days maybe, sweet potato, peppers, corn husk (a little), lettuce (little), apple and strawberries rarely. He is 3 years old.

 

[bpatters]

Hay? any hay at all? He needs long strand grass hay (timothy, orchard, blue or brome) all the time.

Which kind of Oxbow pellets?

For starters, your diet is plenty low in calcium. But sweet potatoes are very high in oxalates, and should never be fed more often than once or twice a week. If you have this pig operated on for this stone, be sure the vet gets it analyzed to find out what it is. The dietary recommendations are completely different if the stone is calcium oxalate instead of calcium carbonate. And if he's been eating sweet potato over a long period of time, the stone well may be an oxalate stone. Actually one of the treatments for oxalate stones is increased calcium intake, not decreased. So your combination of low calcium and high oxalates may be contributing to your problem.

If he's doing ok with no gas and no bloat, you can keep on with the cucumbers. But if you notice any gas, bloat, soft or misshapen poops or diarrhea, take him off the cucumber. It can cause gas, and should be the first thing suspected as the culprit in any of those conditions I mentioned in the last sentence.

He should have no more than one baby carrot per day. And he needs at least a large leaf of red or green leaf lettuce (no romaine, since he's a stone pig) a day, plus 1/4 of a medium-sized bell pepper so that he gets enough vitamin C from his diet.

Corn husks and silks have been reported to be helpful with stones. My two get the husks and silks from half an ear of corn every day that I can find corn like that. Just be sure to strip off the outer leaves and the ends of the husks so you get rid of the pesticides.

There are a number of people who have reported sludge/stone problems when using Oxbow pellets, and have had their problems clear up when switching to Kleenmama pellets. Apparently the problem is in the calcium compound that Oxbow adds to their pellets to provide calcium. Some pigs do fine all their lives on Oxbow pellets, while others do not. If your pig's stone turns out to be calcium carbonate, the Oxbow pellets may be at least part of the problem.

If your water is hard, you should give your pig filtered water. Not distilled, and not bottled, but filtered. That will take a lot of the calcium out of the water. You can buy a filter that fits over your kitchen faucet or a pitcher with a filter for not much money. You can tell if your water is hard by how soap behaves in it. If you get lots of suds with a little soap, you've got soft water. If you get a hard, scaly scum with soap, or if you see whitish deposits on your fixtures or in your bathroom toilet, you've got hard water.

While he may have a genetic tendency toward stones, I don't think we can conclude that yet. When all is said and done, I see a good possibility that a change in diet may prevent any recurrence of his stones. You'll always have to be careful with him, but given what he's been eating, I certainly wouldn't give up on him at this point.

 

[SurfingPigs]

I don't have much to add to what has been mentioned other than to again ask what type of pellets and hay you are feeding? Were the previous stones analyzed? What did the vet recommend as a result of his/her analysis of the stones and your pig? Predisposition or not, there is a source of excess calcium somewhere.

With having had 2 stones already, I would proactively avoid foods high in oxalic acid. OA values can be found here: https://www.guinealynx.info/oxalic_acid_chart.html (note, this is one of the reasons why I don't like Parsley as a common food for adult pigs. Obscenely high OA content.)

Best of luck with your little one!

 

[Morning_shadow]

I give him the regular oxbow pellets and plenty of Oxbow Timothy Hay. The vet had told me its a calcium stone forgot which type. Everytime he gets this stone problem he looks bloated. But I thought it could also be because he is drinking lots of water now. He always drinks more than usual when having this stone.

Hay? any hay at all? He needs long strand grass hay (timothy, orchard, blue or brome) all the time.

Which kind of Oxbow pellets?

For starters, your diet is plenty low in calcium. But sweet potatoes are very high in oxalates, and should never be fed more often than once or twice a week. If you have this pig operated on for this stone, be sure the vet gets it analyzed to find out what it is. The dietary recommendations are completely different if the stone is calcium oxalate instead of calcium carbonate. And if he's been eating sweet potato over a long period of time, the stone well may be an oxalate stone. Actually one of the treatments for oxalate stones is increased calcium intake, not decreased. So your combination of low calcium and high oxalates may be contributing to your problem.

If he's doing ok with no gas and no bloat, you can keep on with the cucumbers. But if you notice any gas, bloat, soft or misshapen poops or diarrhea, take him off the cucumber. It can cause gas, and should be the first thing suspected as the culprit in any of those conditions I mentioned in the last sentence.

He should have no more than one baby carrot per day. And he needs at least a large leaf of red or green leaf lettuce (no romaine, since he's a stone pig) a day, plus 1/4 of a medium-sized bell pepper so that he gets enough vitamin C from his diet.

Corn husks and silks have been reported to be helpful with stones. My two get the husks and silks from half an ear of corn every day that I can find corn like that. Just be sure to strip off the outer leaves and the ends of the husks so you get rid of the pesticides.

There are a number of people who have reported sludge/stone problems when using Oxbow pellets, and have had their problems clear up when switching to Kleenmama pellets. Apparently the problem is in the calcium compound that Oxbow adds to their pellets to provide calcium. Some pigs do fine all their lives on Oxbow pellets, while others do not. If your pig's stone turns out to be calcium carbonate, the Oxbow pellets may be at least part of the problem.

If your water is hard, you should give your pig filtered water. Not distilled, and not bottled, but filtered. That will take a lot of the calcium out of the water. You can buy a filter that fits over your kitchen faucet or a pitcher with a filter for not much money. You can tell if your water is hard by how soap behaves in it. If you get lots of suds with a little soap, you've got soft water. If you get a hard, scaly scum with soap, or if you see whitish deposits on your fixtures or in your bathroom toilet, you've got hard water.

While he may have a genetic tendency toward stones, I don't think we can conclude that yet. When all is said and done, I see a good possibility that a change in diet may prevent any recurrence of his stones. You'll always have to be careful with him, but given what he's been eating, I certainly wouldn't give up on him at this point.

 

[Morning_shadow]

I found this online. (broken link removed) These pills called Uriflow. Has anyone ever heard of them? I would like to try it on him.

 

[pinky]

I found this online. (broken link removed) These pills called Uriflow. Has anyone ever heard of them? I would like to try it on him.

I found this link online.

Painful Kidney Stones, is Uriflow legitimate? · Other Drugs discussions | Therapies & Treatments center | SteadyHealth.com

An exotic vet who specializes in guinea pigs (which sounds like you have) is the best source for current and effective treatments for stones. I had kidney stones and the urologist told me that determining what the makeup of the stones are might give them a clue as to what foods to avoid to keep them from forming new ones but even that's not a guarantee . I was able to pass the stones but was told that I would have needed surgery if they lodged since there would have been a blockage and an infection would set in. I never had a recurrence. If there was an effective treatment for stones, it would be common knowledge. When my guinea pig had stones, my vet contacted a friend of his who is a researcher at one of the universities in IL. He said that stone treatment or prevention is something researchers have been studying for years because of the impact that stones have on guinea pigs used in research. They lose a lot of their "guinea pigs" to stones so they would be very interested in finding a way to eliminate them. I wouldn't waste my money on a supplement that isn't proven. An exotic vet is the best person to treat a guinea pig for stones.

You should contact your vet and ask for the makeup of the stone and post that info on here and on guinealynx to see if anyone has diet recommendations. I would definitely have him on an antibiotic and pain meds if it is either of those but I would ask the vet for his recommendation on that. You don't want him to suffer. He is probably in pain if he has stones or a UTI.

 

[bpatters]

It's that "which type of calcium" stone that's so crucial. If it's calcium oxalate, the treatment is one thing. If it's calcium carbonate, it's another. And don't let your vet just guess at what it is. The most common kind is calcium carbonate, but you haven't had him on a common diet, and he has been on a very high oxalate diet, so it's especially crucial not to guess in your case.

You still haven't said whether he's on Oxbow Cavy Perfomance or Oxbow Cavy Cuisine pellets. Regardless, I'd take him totally off Oxbow and order from (broken link removed) instead. The price will be roughly the same when you figure it out per pound. If you buy from a petstore, the shipping is figured into the price of the pellets, if you buy online, the pellets are cheaper but you pay shipping. The two are within a nickel per pound of being the same cost where I live.

There are alternative treatments that are reported to help dissolve stones, help pigs pass stones, and prevent their formation. There have been no scientific studies that I know of to support any of these, just anecdotal evidence, but sometimes that's all you've got to go on. I'll discuss these below, but regardless, you still need to know for sure what the composition of the stones are.

Shilintong is a Chinese herb which probably acts by relaxing the muscles in the urinary tract and allowing stones to pass more easily. It is ineffective when stones are too large to pass through the urethra, but may help when stones are just about the diameter of the urethra or a tiny bit larger. Finding unadulterated shilintong may be a problem in the US. There are threads at Guinea Lynx where Chinese-speakers have helped decipher the characters in the name and assisted in coming up with reputable sites to buy it from.

Eurologist, a mixture of Chinese herbs, is available in Europe at DESCRIPTION EUROLOGIST. MEDICINE PAGE FOR YOUR DOG, CAT, RODENT AND OTHER SMALL PETS.. A couple of GL posters have used it, and one says that it is diminishing the size of stone that one of her pigs has stuck in its urethra.

Allrodin is another European drug, and it alters the pH of the urine. Unfortunately, the company won't ship it outside of Europe, so if you wanted to try it, you'd have to find someone in Europe to buy it for you and mail it. Of the ones I've listed here, this is the most similar in action to the Gorgeous Guinea preparation. GG has a very good reputation among the guinea pig community. I think I'd email them and ask for more information.

However, bear in mind that no one has tested the interaction of any of these formulations with any other drugs, and that the strength of herbal medicines can vary wildly from batch to batch. I'm not suggesting that you use any of them, just making you aware that there are people who do and who say they are successful. What we don't know is how many people have tried them and they didn't work.

 

[pinky]

No matter how you decide to approach treating him, I'd get him on an antibiotic and pain meds if it's stones or a urinary tract infection. Both meds are relatively inexpensive. He doesn't know he's sick but he does know when he's in pain. If you want to see if any of the alternative treatments might be effective, at least allow him to be try them without having to be in pain. His appetite will probably be a lot better and he'll be under a lot less stress.

 

[kathlaaron]

WOW. You have gotten some really wise advice from everyone up above ! So, first thing I would do is find out exactly what type of stone your vet said the previous stone was made up of, and go from there.

Unfortunately, the only way to determine if it is indeed another stone, is an ultrasound or an xray, so you know for sure if it is indeed, another stone. I know both of these are expensive where you live, and I am so very sorry for that, I really am....I just don't know of any other way you could determine for sure what is going on with your little man, you know ?

Please keep us all updated, and please let us know what kind of stone ( calcium carbonate or calcium oxalate) the Vet tells you it is, o.k. ? Best wishes to you and your little man Mocha.....

 

[kathlaaron]

Billie and pinky--it just blows my mind how knowledgeable you both are on so many issues regarding our piggies. You guys are just so awesome, truly ! Once again, I have learned so very very much, just from this single thread, thank you. We are all so blessed, to have you both guide us Piggie Parents on this forum, each and every single day.

 

[Morning_shadow]

Thanks for the help all.. Tomorrow the vet will be back in office and I will ask her the composition of it. I will probably have to get him an xray or an ultrasound. I did order that Uriflow, will ask the vet if this might be a good idea to try on him. Anything that works in humans could possibly work on them too?