A thought against animal welfare

[Calliso]

I agree that a lot of people just donlt care. But we also have to consider there are people in the world that donlt have a whole lot of choice. For instance there are places were plants basically donlt grow or very little grows. Going veggie for those people would be very diffcult if not impossible for many because of sheer expense. Everything would have to be flown in basically. Not to mention what about people in third world countries who use farm animals to work the fields still or raise animals for their meat or milk. In many cases these people have little available to them. So we should take into consideration if we want animal welfare and rights to improve worldwide that not everyone lives in the same conditions.

 

[Calliso]

Oh- and as a completely other thought- the reason I object to service dogs (in particular) being compared to slaves is that a service dog has species-specific considerations and (as far as current knowledge is concerned) has the best possible treatment possible. They have a good, balanced diet, plenty of exercise, tip-top veterinary care, mental stimulation, job satisfaction and a reasonable retirement plan. Salves- not so much. They were overworked until death, treated with severe negative punishment, not fed properly, or given medical care, not properly stimulated so far as their mental needs were concerned, etc. Now, if you want to compare slaves to puppy mills or guinea pig breeding farms- that I have no problem with. But the service dogs to slaves is not even in the realm of apples to oranges- it's like comparing... er... bike tires to cucumbers (or something). Completely different situations. Same thing with the Jews to cows. I don't see the correlation. At absolute face value- cows need to be fed properly to produce milk/meat. I won't go deeper into that one as I went a bit nuts on the slavery issue. When you say that someone's service dog, who makes their life so much better and is usually a member of a person's family, is like enslaving another human being- that's just inflammatory. I don't see it serving any purpose than to make 'meat eaters' (really, we're omnivores... but tick them off and that's what they'll call themselves) making omnivores angry and making AR people feel self-righteous. Which is going against the crux of that great article, methinks.

I agree it bothers me too when service animals and pets are compared to slavery. They are nothing alike and to me it;s a slap in the face to all those humans that suffered and died horribly to be compared to a animal that may have well be very well treated fed and everything till the day it died. Now I donlt mind comparison to factory farms and breeding farms and the like so much but like you said the other isn;t even in the realm of apples and oranges. But aye making such comparisons really isn;t necessary.

 

[John4216]

I think the majority of people don't care, or at least not enough to do anything about it.

Consider this though, just because someone "knows" it is right, or better, or whatever does not mean they will do it.

Look at some of the things people "know" for a fact they should either not do or change in their own lives yet they do not do it even when it is beneficial to themselves to do so. We can not always logic our way out of something we did not logic our way into. Things like diet, exercise, smoking, relationships, etc. These are all things that many people "know" they need to change and yet they often do not.

Why don't they? You are correct that sometimes they do not care enough, sometimes they do not want the inconvenience of trying but these are not the only reasons either. Just the figures about what americans spend each year on their pets (that for pets not the pets themselves) help to show that people care about animals. But trying to overcome thousands of years of belief that a cow is meant for eating is hard to do and can be frustrating and can seem like people do not care. Try to imagine if someone was asking you to believe the opposite of what you believe now? That you should be that way towards animals after you have been told forever the opposite.

I think people care but it is a different and sometimes confusing path to go down when all your life you have done something different and change is not always that easy.

An example I sometimes use is this. Most adults can tie their shoes without even looking at them. For the next week tie your shoes the opposite way of how you do them now and see how well you are doing at the end of the week.

Sounds quirky I know, but it helps to show how even though you may "know", there is a big difference between knowing and doing sometimes and the doing, even of something as simple as this, can be different than what it seems before you actually do it.

And going vegan can be harder than it seems. It is not just about not eating meat, it is about, what do I cook, where do I buy it, is it more expensive, is it healthy, does my small town store have the products, and on and on.

I am not trying to be critical of you Maise with my post but rather trying to explain why it may seem like so many do not care. You are someone who has already made it there while others do not even believe in the path let alone know that the path exists or how to walk it.

 

[Calliso]

And going vegan can be harder than it seems. It is not just about not eating meat, it is about, what do I cook, where do I buy it, is it more expensive, is it healthy, does my small town store have the products, and on and on.

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Yeah that is a good point. I mean I know for instance that the vegan products I sell in my store are often expensive. Especially the premade stuff. Buying the food to prepare on your own rather then premade meals is usually cheaper but many people aren;t good cooks. And would get bored of eating basically the same things over and over as that is what would happen I think with many people. As restrictive as a vegan diet is it pays to be a really good cook I would imagine otherwise things could get very boring very fast or very expensive very fast. Also health concerns are another big thing..you can;t just eat some random fruits and veggies your whole life and expect to be healthy a proper vegan diet takes a lot of research from what I hear not to mention many have to take vitamens from what I hear too to make up for what they donlt get in their diets especially b-12. Not to mention depending on where they live some people just may not have much choice in their stores not everyone has a supermarket with tons of vegan products.

 

[John4216]

Plus there are other things to consider as to why people may seem like they do not care. It is natural for people to be what seems "in denial" about many negative things in life. For someone very passionate about animals it may seem callous and cold of others not to see or appear to care about animals in the same way that they do. But there are sooooo many negative things in the world that if someone was to try to be passionate and focused on all of them, they would drive themselves mad. Just because someone is not focused on animals does not mean they do not care or are not supportive, they may just be focused on a different issue. They are not wrong for being that way any more than the person who is passionate about animals.

Just think about some of the issues out there and what you may have done to help them today:

Poverty, starvation, child abuse/neglect, violence against women, the environment, global warming, conservation, and the list goes on and on and on. Think about how many people died in the past 24 hours from malnutrition and related illness. How many children died from abuse and neglect. How many people are suffering, how many people were enslaved, and on and on.

I have talked to people who are just as passionate about those issues and have heard the same thing being said by some of them that have been said here in regards to caring and such.

When you are passionate and focused on an issue like suffering, no progress is going to be fast enough for you and it is natural to feel that way. It is like if my child is hurting, it does not matter how fast the doctor makes my childs hurt go away, it is not fast enough for me.

It is also natural to feel discouraged for the same reasons. Sometimes it is hard to step back and see the progress that has been made because it appears to be to little to late.

I know when I was little I had never heard of the word "vegan". In my house and every house I knew dinner was "meat and potatoes" and that was an american way to eat. When deer season came around schools shut down because it was practically expected that almost everyone hunted and fished. Heck even the food pyramid was different.

Today we have the medical establishment openly saying that a vegan diet is healthy and openly telling people to reduce the amount of meat they eat in their diets. We have countries like the UK banning certain testing. Vegan products are begining to appear in little stores even and becoming mainstream. More and more people are looking at fur as something to be avoided rather than bought. these are just a few positive examples of progress since I was little.

It is a complex world with many complex issues in it. We do what we can with what we focus on. I do not look down on people who focus on childrens issues or starvation or any other issue because they are not working actively, or do not seem to be anyway, on animal issues and vice versa. I know it can be hard to try to see it that way when someone is so involved and cares so deeply about their issue, be it children or animals or whatever.

I think Susan said it best when she said "To me, this all supports the idea of supporting each other in all of our attempts to reduce the suffering of non human (and human) animals". Just getting people to be more compassionate, caring people that reduce suffering period is an accomplishment that benefits everyone and everything. I see everything as being connected because everything shares this planet together.

 

[Maisiepaisie]

I agree with all the above. In my last post I was referring to people living in the Western world where its really easy to get vegan food. Its also really easy to learn to cook too. I was always too lazy to attempt it until I became vegan. It surprised me how easy it actually is. You just follow the instructions in the recipe.

Imagine if everyone in the country ate only 10% meat in their diets and only ate an appropriate amount of food. That would probably save more animals a year than every vegan and vegetarian could by not eating meat at all.

Yes you're right. I won't be completely happy until the entire world is vegan but any step in that direction is better than none. What gets me down though is not having made even a 1% difference to my family's eating habits since becoming vegan. If I can't convince my own family, who supposedly care about animals, what hope is there of convincing the rest of society?

The meat and dairy industry are continually seeking ways to maximise their profits at the expense of animals. Farming methods are now so intense that disease spreads. So far we have had BSE, foot and mouth and avian flu. If we continue this way I feel its only a matter of time before some new disease comes along that isn't so easily contained and will wipe out a large percentage of the human race who consume contaminated animal products. Only the healthy will survive. Hopefully the majority of those left will be vegan/vegetarian because only when we outnumber the omnivores will we be able to put things right. Now I'm not saying I wish for this to happen, I would much prefer people to stop eating meat of their own accord but sadly a lot of people never will.

 

[thalestral]

Wow, thanks CF#5pig for your posts, incredibly interesting! I'm sorry you didn't get many responses to what you actually wrote though :sorry:

However this in particular that you said:

Considering the current dire circumstances of the world, I think it's more important to have a strong set of philosophical beliefs that aren't realistically attainable rather than compromising one's own philosophical beliefs based on behavior in order to avoid being a hypocrite. In other words, philosophy should come first, and behavior should be dictated by philosophy as much as possible, but philosophy should never be impacted or compromised based on behavior.

I think is exactly what I was trying to get across. The arguments of poorer areas in the world not being able to go straight to vegan are redundant when you are talking about philosophical beliefs. I can strongly believe the whole world should go vegan right now whatever the realistic arguments against such would be. Philosophical beliefs are what we believe should be being done, usually with the aim that this eventually will be what is done. (Veganism being used here as just an example of many of the issues). Beliefs should not be compromised by what is possible right here this very second... that's what philosophical beliefs are all about.

However, I do think that moderate steps can be accepted as part of the path to the goal being achieved. Would I be satisfied if 50% of the Western world went vegan for example? Of course not. But it would be a step along the right path, and for that I would campaign for the lesser step as part of my campaign for the goal. (Veganism being used here as just an example of many of the issues).

I also think many people purposefully ignore the similarities given between the holocaust and the meat industry, and the service animals and slaves. As you say, people are unwilling to grasp the idea that the animals here are being promoted to human level, not humans being demoted to animal level. When you think of each of those animals as (being no different from) human - which is what those who make such comparisons believe - then cows can be compared to holocaust victims, and service animals to slaves. If you wouldn't force a human to have this forced upon them, etc. You may not believe such comparisons are fair, but surely you can understand that those who see no difference between the rights and lives that animals and humans should be given would see it this way?

Also, there seems to be the repeating argument that because there is so much bad going on in the world that this excuses people from focussing on one particular wrong. Remember that many vegans in particular do campaign for human right issues and are very much into making the world an environmentally friendly, sustainable environment for humans and animals alike. To go with the promoting idea, animals are being promoted, humans are not being demoted. I personally feel just as passionately about many human issues, in fact it where the majority of my charity money goes.

 

[John4216]

Also, there seems to be the repeating argument that because there is so much bad going on in the world that this excuses people from focussing on one particular wrong.

I hope the explanation I gave above did not come across sounding like this. If it did then I need to maybe word it better.

It is not that they can't focus on one particular wrong. It is which of those particular wrongs to focus on. It is not possible to intensely focus on all of them. So some people focus on other issues mostly rather than animal issues. But that does not mean they are also not supportive or caring about animal issues. It just means it is not their main focus. Just like because your passionate about animal issues in no way means you do not care about other things. You may even actively support (which you said you do) some other issues but I do not think a person can be emotionally attached to ALL of the issues. So we do the best we can with whatever issue best suits us and all benefit from it. So some folks do not focus on animal issues but rather on other issues.

Did that come across better this time hopefully? I get paid to talk and my written communication skills are not up to par with my verbal skills.

 

[Maisiepaisie]

I understand what you're saying John. I believe that neither humans nor animals should be exploited. I also think we should all do as much as we can to be environmentally friendly. Although I believe strongly in all these issues, the main one I focus on is animal rights. I donate more cash to animal charities and very little to anything else. I feel that there are plenty of people willing to help humans but animals always come secondary in most peoples book. Whenever theres a quiz show on TV where contestants get to choose a charity to donate to, its very rare that anyone chooses an animal charity. I usually get annoyed by this. Anyway most peoples view is that humans are more important so no doubt thats the reason for this. Because I feel so strongly about animal rights I'm very strict about making sure everything I purchase is vegan and cruelty free. I scrutinise labels thoroughly and if unsure I don't buy. I feel guilty sometimes that I could recycle more than I do, I use too much water and drive too often. I also enjoy shopping in Primark which is cheap because the people who made the clothes have worked in poor conditions for very little pay. I do feel bad about this but like John said we cannot intensely focus on everything. Some of the food I buy is fairtrade and I recycle more than the average person does so I am doing good. I hope one day it becomes a lot easier for people to recycle and that fairtrade goods become cheaper as more people buy them, or better still would be for slave labour to be made illegal.

 

[John4216]

And Maise can I say that I am happy that you do focus on animals so much. You are right in that many people focus on other issues and animal ones are rarely brought up. I for one am always happy to hear someone who is for animals and takes the time, patience, and effort to actually try to make a difference. Speaking for myself, I offer you and everyone like you my thanks. Because of people like you things are, very slowly, begining to change.

 

[Susan9608]

I'm sorry you didn't get many responses to what you actually wrote though

I actually thought CF#5 got quite a few responses to what he wrote ... particularly since I was one of the ones responding to what he wrote .... ?

 

[thalestral]

I was meaning the initial responses, they jarred a bit with the flow of discussion

I understand what you mean John, I do think though that some people use this as a cop out for not doing more. We can't focus 100% on more than one issue at a time of course but I know that I personally have had people imply that I care more about animals than I do humans simply because of my dietary changes. And there are others that get so overwhelmed by everything they end up doing nothing at all!

I am expecting to deal with a fair amount of flack this Christmas for example, as usually I give people the charity cards where you choose a "gift" such as paying for treatment in the third world, schools, toilet facilities and so on. This year though I'm having to rethink that as many of these charities have gifts that send animals to third world countries, something condemned by AR, AW and environmentalists alike, as well as many of the smaller charities that do work out there. Yet although the animal welfare and rights issues are but a part of me rethinking this, that is what people will cling on to - that I care more about animals than poor people :/

 

[Alusdra]

I don't think people are inherently good. Which is what we would have to be in order for libertarian/anarchist/ socialist and similar philosophies to work. Whether through mental illness or poor early socialization or whatever- there will always be people without the appropriate sense of personal justice. I think government is very necessary, though inherently corruptible. If everyone were left to their own devices, I think we would quickly degenerate right back to feudal society. There needs to be universal standards that are agreed upon, and the only way to do that is government. As an ideal, for me anyway, government would be a long and extended conversation between all the peoples of the world. You can't beat back millions of years of 'selfish genes' (ie- evolution) with anything but the mental abilities that we alone (as humans) possess. The only way I can see to do that is via government. And that's also the reason that I don't think animals should have equal rights to people. They are not cognitively capable of being citizens, which is the other side of having rights.

I really like the social contract theory (first brought up by Socrates, I believe) but many people seem to forget it isn't just a burden the state puts on you. If you don't like the government, change it or leave. But by staying you are saying that you approve of that which you do not change. I respect Thoreau's choice to live in the woods and I love a great many of his ideas- but unless the human population is severely curtailed, not everyone can live as he did. We have to work together.

I think that police dogs would be more accurately compared with a traditional Japanese company- depending on how you do in a ridiculously rigorous curriculum you end up recruited into a lifelong position at a company that you are expected to have complete devotion to until the day you die. (These companies are mostly dying out due to trying to support all their faithful retired employees.) Slaves were in no way appropriately cared for- significant moral issues aside.

 

[Calliso]

I don't think people are inherently good. Which is what we would have to be in order for libertarian/anarchist/ socialist and similar philosophies to work. Whether through mental illness or poor early socialization or whatever- there will always be people without the appropriate sense of personal justice. I think government is very necessary, though inherently corruptible. If everyone were left to their own devices, I think we would quickly degenerate right back to feudal society. There needs to be universal standards that are agreed upon, and the only way to do that is government. As an ideal, for me anyway, government would be a long and extended conversation between all the peoples of the world. You can't beat back millions of years of 'selfish genes' (ie- evolution) with anything but the mental abilities that we alone (as humans) possess. The only way I can see to do that is via government. And that's also the reason that I don't think animals should have equal rights to people. They are not cognitively capable of being citizens, which is the other side of having rights.

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I think that police dogs would be more accurately compared with a traditional Japanese company- depending on how you do in a ridiculously rigorous curriculum you end up recruited into a lifelong position at a company that you are expected to have complete devotion to until the day you die. (These companies are mostly dying out due to trying to support all their faithful retired employees.) Slaves were in no way appropriately cared for- significant moral issues aside.

Yep unfortunately no government just wouldn;t work. Human beings are selfish by nature heck all animals are basically. We are just one of the only ones who really have the compacity not to be selfish. However expecting every human in the world to never be selfish to always work for the betterment of all is way to lofty of a goal. If you stick to such a hope that one day we can live in a perfect governmentless utopia your going to be disappointed pretty badly. And as for the personhood thing I think that is one area some animal rights people get it wrong too. Animals aren;t human, I think often times we have a habit of putting human traits on animals and for some reason thinking that they think like us in many ways. In some ways they do..but no animal has quite the capacity to think and reason like a human does. Not to mention if they were given personhood/citazenship how far would that go? I mean would we stop squabbles between animals in the wild..like when one chimpazee bullies a weaker one? Would we send vets out to aid sick animals in the wild? Or food during times where it is scarce? Also would all animals get personhood or just some?

 

[thalestral]

That very much depends on what you consider to be "personhood", a word thats meaning is currently very much in debate thanks to such things as bio-ethics. What is a human really (or should be) entitled to when it gets to basics? Some would argue the same three things that many argue animals of all kinds should be entitled to. However, I do not presume to answer on someone else's behalf - I simply dislike the "animals are not people"/"anthropomorphism" argument re-emerging.

Also whether or not you believe a non-governed society would work has very little to do with what someone holds as their philosophical belief, as discussed above

Also, I fail to see what it accomplishes to try and point out how many humans had it worse or that it's offensive to compare humans to animals - even though we are comparing animals to humans, much different IMO. We cannot ask animals how they feel and as such surely we should be erring on the side of caution when it comes to those animals that are here because of our selfish wants and desires. Their well being is seen as secondary to their usefulness, and whether or not you are offended by the similarities service animals have to slaves... well, it doesn't change the facts.



But yeah, things are kind of going in circles again...

CF#5pig, I meant to ask - are there any AR books in particular you would recommend to someone who hasn't read very much on the subject? I would rather like to get myself more informed on the issues and the history of the movement

 

[Susan9608]

CF#5pig, I meant to ask - are there any AR books in particular you would recommend to someone who hasn't read very much on the subject? I would rather like to get myself more informed on the issues and the history of the movement

Well, you didn't ask me ... but one of my favorites, particularly for beginners, is Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation." Not only does it explain the basics and basis for animal rights, but it also helps prepare you with the common arguments people come up with *against* animal rights.

As far as vegetarianism goes, I like John Robbins "Diet for a New America." Again, a very good book, in my opinion, particularly for beginners.

Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with anything written terribly recently. But classics are always good.

 

[ellenvega]

Hopefully the majority of those left will be vegan/vegetarian because only when we outnumber the omnivores will we be able to put things right

Well, I hope it doesn't work out that way. Imposing one's beliefs on a minority group-no matter how honorable or righteous they might be-has never turned out too well, historically. Personally, I wouldn't want to bow down to another's beliefs just because they had the numbers on me.