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A rescue?

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Krysanthemum

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Ah, it's so wonderful to see that the tone of this board hasn't changed or improved in the slightest in the couple of months I've been gone. Here we have three moderators and the board administrator ganging up on a forum member for daring to have a differing opinion. He/she has been respectful and polite in his/her posts, and the moderators have called him/her a moron (amongst other things) and demanded that if he/she chooses to take responsibility for one guinea pig in a pet store, he/she must take responsibility for them all.

God forbid that we actually had a debate or a difference of opinions. This isn't informing people of proper guinea pig care, it's beating people over the head with it, and blasting them if they dare to disagree. I'm sure it would be very comforting to have a forum full of members who agree with everything you say, but it would be a pretty dull forum.

And since we're throwing around Dictionary.com definitions:

fo·rum
    1. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
    2. A public meeting place for open discussion.
    3. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
 

JennG

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craig51 said:
res·cue ([FONT=verdana, sans-serif] P [/FONT]) Pronunciation Key (r
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tr.v. res·cued, res·cu·ing, res·cues
  1. To set free, as from danger or imprisonment; save. See Synonyms at save[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE].
  2. Law. To take from legal custody by force. n.
  3. An act of rescuing; a deliverance.
  4. Law. Removal from legal custody by force
So yes, the act you carried out would be defined as a rescue, however you could argue the original 'intent' was not to rescue but satisfy self need,as in, not wanting to wait for a shelter pig to become available.However, as previously stated, the end act was a rescue,so good for you.

Ok I've been following this thread all day long and I wanted to point out something to you, Craig51. This is your first post on this: "the act you carried out would be defined as a rescue" but it isn't as defined by what this particular forum stands for which is stated at the top of the forum before you even join-"This forum is run by a guinea pig rescue and is a rescue-friendly board. Intentional breeding and/or showing discussions are not welcome in this forum."

This topic has been brought up time and time again about breeders and petstore piggies. Yes, we'd all would love to agree that you can RESCUE piggies from the petstore but in reality you are NOT rescuing them.

The sow that had to produce that baby for you to purchase didn't have a choice whether she wanted to breed another litter when someone felt sorry for her 1st, 2nd, etc...baby that was at the petstore. She's being sentenced to a miserable life of spitting out babies after babies but humans have to satisfy their needs immediately instead of being patient and rescuing the sow itself when the breeder decides to get rid of her and she ends up in the shelter because the petstore doesn't want to be bothered with a possible and most likely sick animal. This is why many of us agree NOT to purchase animals from the petstore.

I've been put into this situation before where you see this poor living creature suffering at the hands of people who don't care or who just don't know better because they're "doing their job". It's VERY, VERY hard to walk away but you have to. If the situation is bad enough, then do something about it. Make phone calls, write the president of the store, get your voice heard that these are living breathing creatures not just merchandise.

Yes when we go to the shelters, we make donations to them. But they aren't reproducing more animals to be sold and to make a profit like the petstores are.

It's the hard cold facts. When you buy from a petstore, it sentences an animal to die at the shelter. Don't support the petstore, support the shelters! They don't make a profit but they DO make a difference!

Craig51, to be honest you can continue to "justify" what YOU consider a rescue but it's not and you won't convince anyone on this forum or at least the majority of us.

And that's the facts!
 

JennG

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Krysanthemum-I'm not sure if you're reading the same thread or not. I haven't seen one person who has been bashing people over the head. I've seen people who are in agreement that the so-called rescue is NOT a rescue and one person who disagrees. He obviously is alone in his thinking. This forum is very passionate about rescuing and that's what the members on this forum are trying to stress to Craig51.
 

VoodooJoint

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Welcome back Krys, long time.
Krysanthemum said:
Ah, it's so wonderful to see that the tone of this board hasn't changed or improved in the slightest in the couple of months I've been gone. Here we have three moderators and the board administrator ganging up on a forum member for daring to have a differing opinion.
Yup, although "ganging up" is a strong term. That term implies we worked together as a group while we, in actuality, each acted individually.

As you know this board has strong views. We stick to our convictions and I will not tolerate an opinion that I do not feel is in the best interest of animal welfare. Obviously there are others around here that feel the same.

If Craig wants people to agree or respect his unpopular opinions there are more apathetic boards that will gladly agree with him and call him a visionary.

Krysanthemum said:
God forbid that we actually had a debate or a difference of opinions. This isn't informing people of proper guinea pig care, it's beating people over the head with it, and blasting them if they dare to disagree. I'm sure it would be very comforting to have a forum full of members who agree with everything you say, but it would be a pretty dull forum.
We had a debate. People in debates do not always come to agreement in the end. Craig wasn't banned he was debated with.

We did inform him of the lack of logic in his "rescue" scenerio. I wouldn't say he was beat over the head. He simply couldn't shake our convictions and he still seems to hold his.

Krysanthemum said:
And since we're throwing around Dictionary.com definitions:
fo·rum
    1. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
    2. A public meeting place for open discussion.
    3. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
You should have defined "Private Forum". This is not an anything goes forum as you very well know. You don't have to agree with us but if you challenge the ideals this forum is based upon you will get a screenful.

Krys, this forum is never going to change. It is never going to become complacent or think petshops that sell animal, breeding, etc, is all sunshine and roses. You can stay away for years but until abuse and overpopulation is a thing of the past CavySpirit/CavyCages will have a BIG FAT MOUTH on the issues.

Once again welcome back
 

Krysanthemum

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I doubt he's alone in his thinking (citronsoul has already stated that they agree to a certain degree), he's just the only one who's willing to stand up and say so.

I would also dispute the usual line that "every time you buy one guinea pig from a pet store, they replace it with two or three more". If that were the case, pet stores would be overflowing with guinea pigs by now, purely by the laws of proportions. I'm sure it's useful as a simple example to new members, but seriously, I think it needs to be given a rest. I'm not saying Pet Stores are not awful to animals, but that is just an unfeasible assertion.
 

Krysanthemum

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VoodooJoint said:
Welcome back Krys, long time.

Thanks VJ.

VoodooJoint said:
Yup, although "ganging up" is a strong term. That term implies we worked together as a group while we each acted individually.

True, although I was more referring to the fact that he posts once, and is followed by two or three dissenting modertator/administrator posts. It may not be ganging up in the traditional, planned sense, but I think it has the same result. But let's not get bogged down with definitions once again.

VoodooJoint said:
We had a debate. People in debates do not always come to agreement in the end. Craig wasn't banned he was debated with.

True, although I was pointing out that while he has been relatively polite and open with his views, some of the moderators/administrators have been openly hostile and dismissive. I think we can both agree that hostility doesn't help the discussion at all, no matter how strenuously each side disagrees.
 
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Chloë-Jasmine

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I didn't start reading this thread until today. So I kind of skimmed through it, so don't mind some of my points that may have already been pointed. In my opinion, the guinea pig in question was 'recsued' (bad term, let's say 'taken') from that particular environment, but the payment that was made to the pet store was helping put more piggies in the same environment. Because when that pig was taken, they have to replace it. So another pig has to be treated poorly. And with the money that was payed for it goes towards paying the breeding mills, or buying more baby pigs. Taking the pig from the store is advertising. It's like 'look at the cute piggy I bought. They have more...'. I'm sure tonnes of people have bought guinea pigs from pet stores and breeders before knowing better. Including myself (letssee. 2 from a pet store, one of which had 4 babies. 1 from a breeder that had 3 babies. So indirectly 10 guinea pigs from a bad sorce). It doesn't make you a bad person. But I think if someone knows better and they continue to do it, then you are being ignorent. The pig in the discussion was bought a few years ago, so I'm assuming that Spiffy didn't know any better. Which is fine. You don't have to justify your past actions. Your intentions may have been good at the time. But now you know a better way to help guinea pigs.
 

Katie

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Krysanthemum said:
I would also dispute the usual line that "every time you buy one guinea pig from a pet store, they replace it with two or three more". If that were the case, pet stores would be overflowing with guinea pigs by now, purely by the laws of proportions.
The local pet store near me buys guinea pigs from BYBs for $3.00 ea.They sell guinea pigs for $25.99 ea. They make a $22.99 profit off of one cavy. They usually have about 15-20 guinea pigs at any one time, and that's just what they have on the floor. They have about 5 or 6 in the back room ready to take the place of one sold.They sell approx. 5 cavies a day, and 10 cavies a day during holidays.They use that profit to restock.They call up the breeders and have them bring in more.They make over a hundred dollars more profit when people buy the cage and supplies.Pet Stores are overflowing with guinea pigs, they sell just as fast as they come in. I guess you just can't see it.
 

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"every time you buy one guinea pig from a pet store, they replace it with two or three more". If that were the case, pet stores would be overflowing with guinea pigs by now, purely by the laws of proportions.

It's not a question of the law of proportions, it's basic business--inventory management and supply chain dynamics. Deny it all you want, that's the way it works.

so wonderful to see that the tone of this board hasn't changed or improved in the slightest in the couple of months I've been gone

We love you, too.

I think it needs to be given a rest

Hate to break it to you, but that's not going to happen.
 

Krysanthemum

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Katie said:
The local pet store near me buys guinea pigs from BYBs for $3.00 ea.They sell guinea pigs for $25.99 ea. They make a $22.99 profit off of one cavy. They usually have about 15-20 guinea pigs at any one time, and that's just what they have on the floor. They have about 5 or 6 in the back room ready to take the place of one sold.They sell approx. 5 cavies a day, and 10 cavies a day during holidays.They use that profit to restock.They call up the breeders and have them bring in more.They make over a hundred dollars more profit when people buy the cage and supplies.Pet Stores are overflowing with guinea pigs, they sell just as fast as they come in. I guess you just can't see it.

Sure, I have no argument with that. Pet stores are making a profit from the breeding and selling of guinea pigs. But what you are describing is 1 guinea pig sold = 1 guinea pig restocked (with probably a slightly higher rate during school holidays, as you said). That is not the same as saying 1 guinea pig sold = 2 or 3 more guinea pigs restocked, which was my argument. If that were the case, pet stores would be greatly increasing their stock of guinea pigs with every sale.

For example, hypothetically, you go to a pet store and see four guinea pigs in a pen. Does that mean that that pet store has only ever sold 2 guinea pigs during its entire time in business (2 sold = 4 restocked)? Of course not. While it is probably true to say that if a pet store is successful in selling guinea pigs it will increase its holding, I think it is overly simplistic to assert that they are increasing their herds at a rate of 2 or 3 per single sale.
 

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I think it is overly simplistic to assert that they are increasing their herds at a rate of 2 or 3 per single sale.

If a pet store sells a guinea pig, it then has an empty space to fill. So perhaps this pet store is well prepared for that event, and has a few waiting in the back room. Assuming that these pigs are healthy and not nursing babies, one - or maybe two - will be moved up front to fill the empty space.

Now the pet store has empty spaces in the back, so they call up their supplier. It's not likely that they can order only 1 or 2 pigs at a time because the shipping and handling costs for just 1 or 2 pigs would probably negate any profit a store could make off of them. So they probably order 3 or 4 or maybe more. They have to have the pigs on hand in case someone comes in to buy one or in case a pig gets sick or in case a pig has an unexpected litter of babies and can't be sold.

If they don't have the animals on hand, then they can't make a sale. If they have cages that are empty for too long (while animals are being shipped) then they'll lose impatient customers, who will go elsewhere to buy a pig. So they have to order enough to a) make it worthwhile to ship them and b) have enough on hand for customers in the event of a sale/illness/birth.

I don't think it's too simplistic to assert that they are increasing their herds by 2 or 3 with each sale; of course, I'd have to find out what their actual procedure is for ordering new animals, but I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make.
 

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I'd just like to add on the donation vs payment front that here in Ontario when you buy a cavy at Petsmart in addition to the $30 or so you pay the store, you also have to pay General Sales Tax and Provincial Sales tax. Sales denoting a purchase to me. When you adopt a cavy from the humane society or SPCA you give them a set tax free donation. You pay no GST or PST.

Now PST, that's hit and miss. You don't pay PST on books either in Ontario. But GST, well the only way you get around that is if it's an essential item (basically bread, milk, diapers and the like) or if it's not a purchase.
 

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Krysanthemum said:
I think it is overly simplistic to assert that they are increasing their herds at a rate of 2 or 3 per single sale.
Ok, Let's say, for the sake of argument, you are correct. Only one GP will replace the one sold.

Even in that scenerio has any change been made at all? Haven't you just doomed another animal to the same fate?

I have seen in a local pet store near me the "sell one, order 3" dynamic. I actually kept notes on their practices (for possible prosecution - moot point now. They flooded, the animals died. They are still closed but will reopen)

This store got in 3 GPs to see if there was interest. All 3 sold. They got in 6 more- sold. They ordered 18. 11 sold. They replenished to bring the numbers up to 24 (half of which were held in the dark, drafty, warehouse-like back room to replenish the supply as needed). Most of the GPs sold, the rest, once they got too big to be "cute" were killed by putting them in a bag and swung against a wall, then frozen to supply snake owners.
 

Krysanthemum

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See, this is something I've never understood about that argument. Say a pet store has 4 pigs out front and 4 pigs out the back. Assuming those 4 out the back are healthy and not nursing, why aren't they out the front? Why would a pet store have perfectly good "stock" in a place where potential customers can't see them? Particularly with a "stock" like guinea pigs where they all look different and will be chosen on looks? I've never worked in a pet store so I can't say one way or the other, but why have "stock" out the back?

Also, Susan, from what you wrote, I still don't think I understand the numbers behind that. Sure, pet stores have to restock, but they don't restock with every sale.

For example (continuing my 4 out the front, 4 out the back example), 3 pigs sell from a pet store, so they move three from the back to the front. They now have 4 pigs out the front and only 1 pig out the back, so they call the breeder to order more. Having sold 3 guinea pigs at this stage, do they then order 6, or even 9 more pigs? Of course not. Unless they are anticipating a particularly busy time (such as holidays), they would maintain their "stock" at a consistent level (in this example, ordering 3, or at most 4, new pigs), particularly when said "stock" needs to be fed and watered, and therefore costs the pet store money during the time they are in the store.
 

Krysanthemum

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VoodooJoint said:
Even in that scenerio has any change been made at all? Haven't you just doomed another animal to the same fate?

Oh, I'm not arguing that for a second, it's still not the way to go. I'm just questioning the logic behind the 1 sold, 3 restocked assertion. But it seems you have personal experience with it, whereas I don't, so I'll just go with that.

VoodooJoint said:
Most of the GPs sold, the rest, once they got too big to be "cute" were killed by putting them in a bag and swung against a wall, then frozen to supply snake owners.

And that is just repugnant.

However, and this is just curiosity now, considering snakes are meat eaters, and people do have the right to have snakes as pets, what would be a viable alternative?
 

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I think it would depend on sale trends. If they sold 6 guinea pigs in a week and had more customers coming in, asking when they were going to get more, a pet store would probably order additional stock to meet what seems to be an increasing demand.

Also, pet stores house animals in the back because they don't have enough display room out front. They also use the back room to sort out animals that they consider "unsellable" and keep them from public view.

I have never worked in a pet store, so this is all speculation on my part, but what I'm saying is that I can see how a pet store would order a greater number of guinea pigs than the number of guinea pigs sold.

I have to agree with Voodoo Joint, though, that even if they replace the guinea pig sold with just one guinea pig, the cycle continues, and nothing has been done to improve the situation.

Welcome back, Krysanthemum. :)
 

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I am sure there I places that you can by humanely bread, grown and killed mice. I am pretty sure Mice on Ice is considered a viable alternative.
 

VoodooJoint

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Krysanthemum said:
considering snakes are meat eaters, and people do have the right to have snakes as pets, what would be a viable alternative?
A good question and topic. If you want to talk about it start a new topic though. I don't want this one getting too off topic.
 

Krysanthemum

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How is killing mice to be snake food any different from killing guinea pigs?

Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, it was just a thought I had following on from the other questions. We don't need to go into it here.
 

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Once again, those who like to think it's all about the one pet store, the one action, the one purchase just don't seem to get the bigger picture. It's never just about what you, as the end consumer, SEE. You are part of a CYCLE--the supply chain. Anyone who's been to college should be familiar with the basics. This is about an industry. It's not so simple. I would think that anyone who has spent some serious time reading the various threads on this forum would be able to get the bigger picture.

I just don't have the energy to spell it out in detail right now. However, I think I will divert some energy into a new page on one of the sites somewhere. Pictures and diagrams should help.

First, just a few inventory terms as food for thought. Reorder point, economic order quantity, safety stock, seasonal trends, forecasting, lead-time, loss, returns... Second, the supply chain players--pet stores, pet store chains, distributors, distributor/breeders, delivery (transportation), breeders (various types), shows, auctions, bunchers, labs & schools, flea markets...These all influence the supply side in various ways.
 
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