Your views on breeding

[VoodooJoint]

Glad we see eye to eye Jennicat. I have known a few really good dog breeders. I would never buy a dog but if people are going to breed the way they do it is the ONLY way to go.

Like you said
-they rarely breed
-all animals are fully health checked and they had about 10 generations of the dogs to know what problems to look for and avoid
-they spay/neuter all pet quality dogs
-show quality dogs ONLY go to great show homes where they will not be over bred, follow the same strict health guidelines the original owner holds and most of all will be loved as a companion.
-are VERY active in breed rescue and NEVER breed their rescues.
-are active in animal rights (to a degree) and hate petstores that sell dogs.
-are active in educating the public about proper animal care.
-the list goes on and on.

Dog breeders like that keep me off their backs. Anything less and I'm on them like a tick on a yard dog.

It's sad that even the most respected of small animal breeders/showers usually keep their animals is poor conditions. They justify the conditions because their animals win ribbons.

Ribbons, how stupid. Exactly what good is a ribbon on a Guinea Pig? I will never understand some people that see the need to show animals like GPs. It's a totally useless, completely self gratifying pasttime.

 

[kavykrazy]

Although I agree with all the arguments against breeding, what about this thought: If all gp breeding was stopped until the overpopulation was brought under control, if it took over a year to accomplish, where would we get more piggies? With a species that has to be bred young to avoid fatal complications, the overpopulation problem would have to be dealt with more slowly than say the dog or cat problem.

 

[daftscotslass]

Although I agree with all the arguments against breeding, what about this thought: If all gp breeding was stopped until the overpopulation was brought under control, if it took over a year to accomplish, where would we get more piggies? With a species that has to be bred young to avoid fatal complications, the overpopulation problem would have to be dealt with more slowly than say the dog or cat problem.

The point is really that this isn't "an ideal world". There will always be backyard breeders to supply the demand in pet stores and people like those of us on here who rescue to pick up the pieces. Even if all the breeding was suddenly brought to an end the breeder sows, boars and their offspring would still be looking for homes. More than likely this would be from a rescue as there's no profit in aged guinea pigs.

 

[Jennicat]

Although I agree with all the arguments against breeding, what about this thought: If all gp breeding was stopped until the overpopulation was brought under control, if it took over a year to accomplish, where would we get more piggies? With a species that has to be bred young to avoid fatal complications, the overpopulation problem would have to be dealt with more slowly than say the dog or cat problem.

Even assuming that this miraculously happened, there are still guinea pigs being bred in Peru.

Interestingly enough, I found an image of a guinea pig pen for the food animals they used in Peru, and it's better than a show breeder's enclosure here. It looked to be about 20 square feet, had an open top, was grassy, and had 4-5 pigs living in each "fence". Compared to the 1x1 wire-floored cages I routinely see breeders reccomend, becoming food almost seems preferable.

 

[DaisyGP]

Glad we see eye to eye Jennicat. I have known a few really good dog breeders. I would never buy a dog but if people are going to breed the way they do it is the ONLY way to go.

Like you said
-they rarely breed
-all animals are fully health checked and they had about 10 generations of the dogs to know what problems to look for and avoid
-they spay/neuter all pet quality dogs
-show quality dogs ONLY go to great show homes where they will not be over bred, follow the same strict health guidelines the original owner holds and most of all will be loved as a companion.
-are VERY active in breed rescue and NEVER breed their rescues.
-are active in animal rights (to a degree) and hate petstores that sell dogs.
-are active in educating the public about proper animal care.
-the list goes on and on.

Dog breeders like that keep me off their backs. Anything less and I'm on them like a tick on a yard dog.

It's sad that even the most respected of small animal breeders/showers usually keep their animals is poor conditions. They justify the conditions because their animals win ribbons.

Ribbons, how stupid. Exactly what good is a ribbon on a Guinea Pig? I will never understand some people that see the need to show animals like GPs. It's a totally useless, completely self gratifying pasttime.

Exactly. I'm glad someone finally got that. Breeding gp's is not gone about that same way as breeding dogs. I am constantly all over irresponsible dog breeders when ever I come across them. But their are some people out there are are responsible with their dogs. Comparing dogs to gp's should have never been brought into this argument.

 

[VoodooJoint]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not thrilled with any breeding in these times. However, we need all the support to close down the BYBs and mills we can get. If truly resposible dog breeders are willing to join the fight and change the laws, as they should, then I will count them among my allies and not as the enemy.

 

[DaisyGP]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not thrilled with any breeding in these times. However, we need all the support to close down the BYBs and mills we can get. If truly resposible dog breeders are willing to join the fight and change the laws, as they should, then I will count them among my allies and not as the enemy.

I don't know of any *truely* responsible dog breeders that don't care about the overpopulation problem. Most of them have volunteered at shelters and vet clinics and donate regularly to the humane society and their breed's club rescue.

 

[SkinnyPiggys]

Is there really such a thing as a "responsible" breeder? I understand that they may take good care of their animals, but in the long run aren't they still contributing to the problem?

I have rescued plenty of purebred dogs that were bought from "responsible" breeders. Even if the dog was already fixed, it doesn't guarantee that it's future owner will take great care of it for the rest of it's life. Purebred animals get dumped off just about as much as the mixed breeds.

Of course if someone is going to breed their animals anyway, of course I would rather they take good care of them. But in the long run, they are still contributing to the problem.

 

[DaisyGP]

Is there really such a thing as a "responsible" breeder? I understand that they may take good care of their animals, but in the long run aren't they still contributing to the problem?

I have rescued plenty of purebred dogs that were bought from "responsible" breeders. Even if the dog was already fixed, it doesn't guarantee that it's future owner will take great care of it for the rest of it's life. Purebred animals get dumped off just about as much as the mixed breeds.

Of course if someone is going to breed their animals anyway, of course I would rather they take good care of them. But in the long run, they are still contributing to the problem.

No aren't. Responsible *dog* breeders dogs don't end up in shelters. A responsible breeder asks ten million questions before placing a dog in a home. They also do home checks. They keep in contact with the owner for the entire dogs life. If the owners move, the breeder is to be updated on this and gets the owners new address and phone number so they can get updates. If the owners can't keep the dog at any point in its life, for any reason, the responsible breeder will always take the dog back and rehome it. The buyer also signs a contract, most responsible breeders have the pet quality dog fixed before the dog leaves there care. Any show quality dogs are sold under a co-ownership agreement, outlined by the breeder, so they can closely monitor what the new owner does with the dog.

If you want to know more about dog breeding I highly suggest you perchase the book called "Breeding A Litter" Beth J. Finder Harris. It spells out what responsible dog breeders do in great detail. You will find that it is very different than guinea pig breeding.

People that work in rescues, God bless their hearts, still only see the bad things that happen with dog breeding. Therefore, it is understandable that they would think there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder. But that is only because, day in and day out, all they see is the many reasons why you shouldn't breed, but it completely covered up the very few good reasons responsible breeders breed for.

 

[Jennicat]

People that work in rescues, God bless their hearts, still only see the bad things that happen with dog breeding. Therefore, it is understandable that they would think there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder. But that is only because, day in and day out, all they see is the many reasons why you shouldn't breed, but it completely covered up the very few good reasons responsible breeders breed for.

God bless your heart, people who work in rescues are also capable of having standards of responsible breeding. I work in a rescue, I believe there is responsible breeding. Talking down to rescuers because "bless them" they just don't know any better is not helping to prove your point.

 

[Susan9608]

I don't think that you can argue that any dog breeder is "responsible" in a time period where there is such an overpopulation crisis.

6 to 8 million cats and dogs enter animal shelters every year; 3 to 4 million are euthanized.

At least 25% of the dogs entering shelters, and then euthanized, are purebred animals.

For every animal that is bred, however "responsibly", and sold, there's another animal wasting away in a shelter or being euthanized for lack of a good home.

How is okay to keep bringing more animals into the world when we don't have enough resources for the animals that already exist?

Responsible *dog* breeders dogs don't end up in shelters.

Even if this were true - which I *highly* doubt - the fact remains that breeding more dogs simply perpetuates the overpopulation problem. If someone buys a dog from a breeder, then there's one less home for a dog living its life out in a shelter. How is that fair?

It spells out what responsible dog breeders do in great detail. You will find that it is very different than guinea pig breeding.

No matter what the process is, the end result is the same - breeding creates more animals when there aren't enough resources for the animals that already exist.

I don't care how you rationalize it - breeding in the face of an overpopulation crisis is wrong.

 

[Jennicat]

At this point, since breeding is going to occur anyway, I'm willing to concede that someone who is breeding as rarely as possible and is participating actively in breed rescue is at least making an attempt at being responsible.

 

[Susan9608]

At this point, since breeding is going to occur anyway, I'm willing to concede that someone who is breeding as rarely as possible and is participating actively in breed rescue is at least making an attempt at being responsible.

I don't understand this kind of attitude. That's like saying, "Since child abuse is always going to occur, I'm willing to concede that someone who beats her child only rarely and is involved in child abuse prevention activities is making an attempt at being responsible."

I don't understand that kind of concession; why concede anything? What is wrong with fighting to get *all* breeding stopped until the pet overpopulation crisis is brought under control?

 

[Jennicat]

I don't understand this kind of attitude. That's like saying, "Since child abuse is always going to occur, I'm willing to concede that someone who beats her child only rarely and is involved in child abuse prevention activities is making an attempt at being responsible."

I don't understand that kind of concession; why concede anything? What is wrong with fighting to get *all* breeding stopped until the pet overpopulation crisis is brought under control?

I don't see how comparing it to a crime is being rational about the situation? Even here, there's a section for keeping pigs outdoors, which I DISagree with and consider akin to abuse. Why "concede" that? Everyone has to make concessions. Isn't that having the self-same attitude? (And I apologize, I'm not trying to attack the board, it's just a good example. T has a right to put whatever she wants on here).

Ideally, we could completely end breeding until the population was completely under control.

Realistically, that will never happen. Breeders are adding to the numbers, and rescuers are subtracting from it. A responsible breeder, at least, is trying for a neutral. I'll settle for someone not actively pulling me backwards. You don't have to be "on my team" so to speak, as long as you aren't blocking the goal.

 

[OliviaP]

I've been watching this post for a little while now and thought i'd add my 2c worth.

In Australia there are not many rescues. In my particular state there are probably 2 rescues I know of, both in Sydney, both too far away from me. How are people in my area supposed to acquire a cavy without travelling huge distances?
This is where a lady I know of who breeds cavies comes into it. She does a wonderful job with educating new owners. She volunteers herself for talks at schools. She recieves rescue cavies from the local RSPCA shelter as they do not have the facilities to care for cavies (although the shelter has only had 2 guinea pigs in the last 9 months, no more than 7 in the past 18 months it's not like there is a huge influx of rescue cavies). The RSPCA has trusted her with their rescues.

Her animals are pedigree show quality cavies. She has certificates with 4 generations listed. She select animals for their health.
Her cavies are kept inside the house in massive pet shop bought cages. The cages are bigger than some of the C & C cages on here with a carpetted upper level in each.

Her cavies are fed on organic vegetables (I work in the organic grocer where she buys them from, this is how we met).

Her cages are in immaculate order. I often just "pop in" for a visit and have never, ever seen filthy cages or surrounds.

She has a rigorous screening process before her cavies are re-homed.

I'd class this person as a responsible cavy breeder.

Also....

I've seen a few names floating around here that are familiar in the breeding circle of people I know of. This board is anti-breeding so how come they're still here. They've fooled the mods I think.

 

[BabyGrl]

I've seen a few names floating around here that are familiar in the breeding circle of people I know of. This board is anti-breeding so how come they're still here. They've fooled the mods I think.

I don't think some people are trying to fool anyone. This site is open to anyone who wants to get information about cavies. As long as there is no how to discussion about breeding, maybe it is a good thing for them to be here and possibly learn a thing or two.

 

[Percy's Mom]

No one has fooled anyone. Although I'm sure there are some people that breed that we're not aware of because they haven't mentioned their practices publically, there are several very public breeders on the forums, and a few former breeders who have changed their ways and either stopped entirely or started rescuing instead. Just because someone breeds, doesn't mean we don't want them here. The primary function of this forum is to get information about animal welfare and caring for your guinea pigs out to anyone who wants or needs it.

 

[SkinnyPiggys]

Well said Susan9608! I thought that this forum was antibreeding. It's nice to hear a sane voice in the crowd.


"Even if this were true - which I *highly* doubt - the fact remains that breeding more dogs simply perpetuates the overpopulation problem. If someone buys a dog from a breeder, then there's one less home for a dog living its life out in a shelter. How is that fair?


No matter what the process is, the end result is the same - breeding creates more animals when there aren't enough resources for the animals that already exist.

I don't care how you rationalize it - breeding in the face of an overpopulation crisis is wrong."

 

[Susan9608]

I don't see how comparing it to a crime is being rational about the situation?

I'm being quite rational. I suppose it depends on how you define "crime" and abuse," but in my opinion, breeding more animals when there aren't homes for all the animals already in existence *is* a crime and abuse.

Even here, there's a section for keeping pigs outdoors, which I DISagree with and consider akin to abuse.

The purpose for the outdoor environment section is not to be a how-to on keeping your guinea pig outside permanently; rather, it's meant to be a discussion on outdoor environment playpens and play areas.

Ideally, we could completely end breeding until the population was completely under control. Realistically, that will never happen.

Here's where we differ - I don't think that ending breeding until the population problem is under control is unrealistic. I think it's merely a matter of educating the right people and getting the right kind of laws passed. Will it be easy? Of course not. But this is the goal I am fighting for, and I will *not* concede that any breeding while animals already in existence are euthanized due to lack of homes is okay.

As PM said, the breeders on here aren't fooling anybody. (Remember, CavySpirit and the moderators are all-knowing.) We want them to stay in hopes that they will learn something, end their breeding, and provide a better life for their guinea pigs.

 

[Jennicat]

The purpose for the outdoor environment section is not to be a how-to on keeping your guinea pig outside permanently; rather, it's meant to be a discussion on outdoor environment playpens and play areas.

I guess I"m confused on the outdoor thing, then. Because as far as I knew, taking your pigs outside for short outings or to play in a playpen was considered quite ok, and yet the forum description states "Not recommended, but if you must, do it right!"

Does Cavy Cages officially not reccomend taking your pigs outside at all, even in playpens and supervised?

Here's where we differ - I don't think that ending breeding until the population problem is under control is unrealistic. I think it's merely a matter of educating the right people and getting the right kind of laws passed. Will it be easy? Of course not. But this is the goal I am fighting for, and I will *not* concede that any breeding while animals already in existence are euthanized due to lack of homes is okay.

And I think it's vital that people have this view. I personally think it's too idealistic. As I said, I agree, breeding does NOT need to be done, but it's going to happen anyway, especially for the purposes of showing, and for obtaining working dogs. That doesn't mean I'm going to encourage people to breed in any way, tell them it's a good idea, go to shows, buy a show dog, buy a purebred, or encourage others to do so. But I do happen to believe that certain types of breeding are worlds more responsible than other types. To me, that is not akin to saying "People everywhere are going to abuse their children, so let's look the other way", but rather, "Crime is going to occur everywhere, let's go after the child abusers and murderers instead of spending all our resources on a manhunt for a jaywalker".