Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: First Thoughts

  1. #1
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    May 20, 2011
    Location
    - Canada -
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    6 Rec'd/6 Posts

    First Thoughts

    As a new guinea pig owner, I wanted to make sure that I get the best information and healthy guinea pigs. I wanted to be sure who I should adopt, where, etc. However, I got a lot of mixed messages.

    Firstly, I had people tell me I shouldn't get a guinea pig from a petstore for several reasons. Pretty much PetSmart Cruelty

    However, I was also told the same can apply to breeders. So, I should look for private ads. However(!), I was told again that those who are giving up for adoption privately are probably doing so because they abused and neglected there's too. Okay, so, I can't get guinea pigs from anywhere without them having been abused or neglected. Further, shouldn't I want to save an animal being abused or neglected..?

    Secondly, there's a lot pseudo-professionals. I see a lot of people dolling out advice as though they are aware of everything guinea pig. However, when asked about their credentials, they usually say, "I've had guinea pigs for 2 years" or "I'm a breeder". Okay, well, anyone can be a guinea pig breeder, and owning anything for 2 years only limits your experience to select guinea pigs. There's no "guinea pig" school, but there is research out there. How come people don't take that research a little more seriously than someone who let there guinea pigs go wild having sex and consider them credible..??

    In addition, I see a lot of places (this forum included) brag about being the most credible and best bastion for guinea pig knowledge. However, if there are any contrary points or discussions put up for debate, they are censored. For example; the dimensions on the splash page for this very website; where is the proof? The support? For anyones real knowledge, they're just arbitrary dimensions. However, I am willing to be I could be banned for simply saying that rather than having some sort of justification given.

    Lastly, pet stores..

    Unless there's an act of law or legislation, I can't see much being done about mostly anything you're against with pet ownership. If people can still attain handguns regardless of laws, they'll be able to buy and breed pets contrary to people's moral standpoint. It may be amicable to think a forum can do this alone, but I contend it only makes things worse. For most of the reasons people say to avoid petstores is why I was encouraged to go to a petstore. They're abused, not treated right, etc. correct? Sorry, that makes me want to remove them for myself. Especially considering that the simple act of not buying them won't do anything. You truly do need law officials to make some sort of passing.

    There will always be petstores so long as there will always be little kids that like fuzzy little things. Get over it. If you really want something done, you ought to solicit politicians and regional officials. The meager act of telling others to not buy from breeders or petstores only seals their fate as a feeder or worse.

    Any thoughts...?
    Last edited by Ly&Pigs; 05-25-11 at 01:53 pm. Reason: Please stop putting "~" at the ends of your posts.

  2. #2
    Cavy Slave gatsbygirl's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 13, 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    123
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    2
    Thanks
    11 Rec'd/8 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    First off i understand your point, but this website is pro adoption and against pet stores and many will tell you this. When i was younger meaning like in high school i always wanted pets had my own job and car and my mom would say no. So i never knew about craigslist and i knew shelters wouldnt adopt to me i wasnt 18 i would get my pets at a pet store. Now that i'm older and more educated, I only adopt from shelters or rescues and or craigslist and never breeders. I was a regular at many pet shops and i started witnessing so many wrong things in the care for animals. My last 2 guinea pigs i got from a pet store were both sick and i paid already $70 for them and then another $100 or so at the vet. I rescued may last and they cost me $25 at the shelter with a cage and they were healthy. I was and am still disgusted at pet stores care of their pets if i ever have to go to any i stay away from the animals it makes me want to cry at how bad they are crammed in small spaces and have no venalation cheap bedding and no food. I was at a petstore yest with my friend (who isnt against them i try to steer her in the right direc.) her friend who was the manager there was showing us a new guinea pig, i asked if he knew the sex and type he was like oh nope. I right away recognized it was a male augoti. I told him this and he shrugged it off. Enough said please do adopt or rescue from craigslist. In our small way we are helping stop this, i think if you have the knowledge about rescues and such it is ignorant to buy from a petstore. I use to think i was saving them from the pet store too but in all reality we arent. Im not trying to be rude at all to you just telling you what i know and have seen.

  3. #3
    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner ellisa's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 29, 2011
    Location
    Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    2,164
    Mentioned
    86 Post(s)
    Quoted
    208 Post(s)
    Thanks
    314
    Thanks
    387 Rec'd/297 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6

    Re: First Thoughts

    I agree with gatsbygirl. When people are "rescuing" an animal from a petstore that animal is just replaced with a new one and the horrible cycle continues. If people decide to stop buying animals from a petstore hopefully that store will stop selling them because no one is buying and it isn't worth keeping something that won't sell. Plus, there are so many lovely animals in shelters that need homes so why not adopt? Most animals in shelters are adults which in my opinion is a huge bonus! They have already gone through their wild and crazy youngster stage which can be very stressful sometimes!

  4. #4
    Cavy Slave blackarrow's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 05, 2009
    Location
    near Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    1,906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    11 Post(s)
    Thanks
    477
    Thanks
    1,544 Rec'd/593 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Lastly, pet stores..

    Unless there's an act of law or legislation, I can't see much being done about mostly anything you're against with pet ownership. If people can still attain handguns regardless of laws, they'll be able to buy and breed pets contrary to people's moral standpoint. It may be amicable to think a forum can do this alone, but I contend it only makes things worse. For most of the reasons people say to avoid petstores is why I was encouraged to go to a petstore. They're abused, not treated right, etc. correct? Sorry, that makes me want to remove them for myself. Especially considering that the simple act of not buying them won't do anything. You truly do need law officials to make some sort of passing.

    There will always be petstores so long as there will always be little kids that like fuzzy little things. Get over it. If you really want something done, you ought to solicit politicians and regional officials. The meager act of telling others to not buy from breeders or petstores only seals their fate as a feeder or worse.

    Any thoughts...?
    So I assume you'll be contacting your politicians to close down the pet stores you solicit, because you're so upset about the conditions at them that you feel compelled to give them your business, right? And I assume you'll be purchasing every pig they have so as to save them, right?

  5. "Thank you, blackarrow, for this useful post," say these 4 members:


  6. #5
    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner pinky's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 11, 2010
    Location
    sweet home Chicagoland
    Posts
    11,212
    Mentioned
    684 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1563 Post(s)
    Thanks
    773
    Thanks
    2,491 Rec'd/1,959 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    I've never heard anyone say that someone privately giving up a guinea pig is doing so because they probably abused or neglected it......There are a lot of reasons some might be rehoming a guinea pig. You can easily find whether the person is a breeder or why they are rehoming by asking a lot of questions. As far as pet stores, if you spend some time reading the forums on here, you'll find that many of the guinea pigs from pet stores are ill, pregnant or the result of inbreeding. Check out your local pet stores and observe their living conditions. Many time the are housed in aquariums or glass enclosures and are being fed substandard food in crowded conditions. There are bound to be health issues in that kind of environment. Once you buy one, another will take it's place and the cycle continues. And, sure, guinea pigs in rescues come from all different kinds of environments, including pet store purchases, but a reputable rescue will have that animal vet checked and treat any health issues before adopting them out. They also make note of their personality and disposition so the person adopting the guinea pig will know what to expect and a make an effort to find a good match. The goal of any reputable rescue is to find the perfect forever home for the guinea pig....I'm sure that many of the people on here have contacted their local animal control, Dept of Agriculture or other group to report animal abuse. And, of course, legislation is an important part of protecting animals but being a responsible consumer is also important and I think a responsible consumer would think twice about getting a pet store pet.

  7. "Thank you, pinky, for this useful post," say these 2 members:


  8. #6
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    May 20, 2011
    Location
    - Canada -
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    6 Rec'd/6 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    A lot to respond to; I'll try to be concise.

    Quote Originally Posted by gatsbygirl
    First off i understand your point, but this website is pro adoption and against pet stores and many will tell you this. When i was younger meaning like in high school i always wanted pets had my own job and car and my mom would say no. So i never knew about craigslist and i knew shelters wouldnt adopt to me i wasnt 18 i would get my pets at a pet store. Now that i'm older and more educated, I only adopt from shelters or rescues and or craigslist and never breeders. I was a regular at many pet shops and i started witnessing so many wrong things in the care for animals. My last 2 guinea pigs i got from a pet store were both sick and i paid already $70 for them and then another $100 or so at the vet. I rescued may last and they cost me $25 at the shelter with a cage and they were healthy. I was and am still disgusted at pet stores care of their pets if i ever have to go to any i stay away from the animals it makes me want to cry at how bad they are crammed in small spaces and have no venalation cheap bedding and no food. I was at a petstore yest with my friend (who isnt against them i try to steer her in the right direc.) her friend who was the manager there was showing us a new guinea pig, i asked if he knew the sex and type he was like oh nope. I right away recognized it was a male augoti. I told him this and he shrugged it off. Enough said please do adopt or rescue from craigslist. In our small way we are helping stop this, i think if you have the knowledge about rescues and such it is ignorant to buy from a petstore. I use to think i was saving them from the pet store too but in all reality we arent. Im not trying to be rude at all to you just telling you what i know and have seen.
    Believe me, as a newcomer, it is very obvious how people stand on things in this forum. To the point of near bullying. When I saw a forum for, "Why can't we all get along?" it was very indicative of the overtone of the forum. Not too mention, one of the first things I saw on this whole website was, "If you don't like what we say here, then go away".

    For most of your post, I don't disagree. I didn't buy from a petstore. My point was just that there are a lot of mixed messages from people who don't really provide justifications for all things. I mean, I heard from several different sources that buying a guinea pig from anyone is bad.

    Even this website says to avoid breeders, but then I see many places encouraging me to go to breeders. Then people say to go to a rescue center, but these rescue centers don't exist everywhere! Not in my area, for one!

    The way I could see it, though, is that one could buy from a petsore, even with the knowledge of what is happening, because you'd at least be saving whichever ones you are picking..

    Quote Originally Posted by ellisa
    I agree with gatsbygirl. When people are "rescuing" an animal from a petstore that animal is just replaced with a new one and the horrible cycle continues. If people decide to stop buying animals from a petstore hopefully that store will stop selling them because no one is buying and it isn't worth keeping something that won't sell. Plus, there are so many lovely animals in shelters that need homes so why not adopt? Most animals in shelters are adults which in my opinion is a huge bonus! They have already gone through their wild and crazy youngster stage which can be very stressful sometimes!
    Look, I'm not saying one person is going to save all guinea pig-kind by buying out Petsmart's stock of guinea pigs. But I can easily see someone justifying it as, "At least this guinea pig is safe.. especially since nothing can really be done on my own"

    Quote Originally Posted by blackarrow
    So I assume you'll be contacting your politicians to close down the pet stores you solicit, because you're so upset about the conditions at them that you feel compelled to give them your business, right? And I assume you'll be purchasing every pig they have so as to save them, right?
    I didn't say I solicit the store. I may buy some food or accessories, but that's all. I think you missed the point in favour of personally attacking me..?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinky
    I've never heard anyone say that someone privately giving up a guinea pig is doing so because they probably abused or neglected it......There are a lot of reasons some might be rehoming a guinea pig. You can easily find whether the person is a breeder or why they are rehoming by asking a lot of questions. As far as pet stores, if you spend some time reading the forums on here, you'll find that many of the guinea pigs from pet stores are ill, pregnant or the result of inbreeding. Check out your local pet stores and observe their living conditions. Many time the are housed in aquariums or glass enclosures and are being fed substandard food in crowded conditions. There are bound to be health issues in that kind of environment. Once you buy one, another will take it's place and the cycle continues. And, sure, guinea pigs in rescues come from all different kinds of environments, including pet store purchases, but a reputable rescue will have that animal vet checked and treat any health issues before adopting them out. They also make note of their personality and disposition so the person adopting the guinea pig will know what to expect and a make an effort to find a good match. The goal of any reputable rescue is to find the perfect forever home for the guinea pig....I'm sure that many of the people on here have contacted their local animal control, Dept of Agriculture or other group to report animal abuse. And, of course, legislation is an important part of protecting animals but being a responsible consumer is also important and I think a responsible consumer would think twice about getting a pet store pet.
    You're right that there are many reasons to give up a guinea pig for a new home.. and I've been told that many of those reasons are that they don't want to take care of it anymore or their child neglects it. For some, I've seen that as justifiable reason to not buy from them. Whether or not that is disagreeable isn't my point.. my point is that the message is very confusing.

    Also, when it comes to the petstores and alternatives, consider that there are not always alternatives. For some, there may not be rescue centers nearby, or only a breeder of some sort taking advantage of the region. I have a breeder nearby, which is the closest thing for me, and I was really encouraged to follow this through.. but seeing the guinea pigs just felt wrong.. the cages were only the size of their own height and width, effectively.. So, the alternative is rehoming another guinea pig from a previous owner or "rescuing" at least 2 from a petstore. So.. what if there are none available in the region for re-homing..? Is it better to not own a guinea pig at all? I mean, some people really want to care for at least some guinea pigs and don't live in an economically thriving city that has rescue centers or a large populus to find other animals.

    My main issue is just the pretentious preaching without justifiable support followed by lack of empathy towards those who just want to care for guinea pigs.
    Last edited by Ly&Pigs; 05-26-11 at 12:54 am.

  9. "Thank you, Ertras, for this useful post," says:


  10. #7
    Cavy Slave blackarrow's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 05, 2009
    Location
    near Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    1,906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    11 Post(s)
    Thanks
    477
    Thanks
    1,544 Rec'd/593 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    A lot to respond to; I'll try to be concise.

    My point was just that there are a lot of mixed messages from people who don't really provide justifications for all things. I mean, I heard from several different sources that buying a guinea pig from anyone is bad.
    Right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Even this website says to avoid breeders, but then I see many places encouraging me to go to breeders. Then people say to go to a rescue center, but these rescue centers don't exist everywhere! Not in my area, for one!
    This board isn't responsible for every post everywhere. The position here is consistent - don't support breeders. And about every three days someone posts that rescue pigs aren't available in their area. They are wrong. If they are being sold, they are also being rehomed, and you just haven't tried hard enough, or aren't patient enough, to find out when and where. If you care, post your location, and people will find them for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    The way I could see it, though, is that one could buy from a petsore, even with the knowledge of what is happening, because you'd at least be saving whichever ones you are picking...
    Yes, this tired argument is also rehashed here about every three days. Problem with it is, the purchase of one encourages the production of yet another litter, which is risky for the repeatedly-bred pig mill female, and results in yet more pigs ending up in the pet store. You've "saved" nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Look, I'm not saying one person is going to save all guinea pig-kind by buying out Petsmart's stock of guinea pigs. But I can easily see someone justifying it as, "At least this guinea pig is safe.. especially since nothing can really be done on my own"
    You are quite right, people attempt to justify their own laziness this way on this board all the time. Very few find it a satisfactory argument, thank goodness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    I didn't say I solicit the store. I may buy some food or accessories, but that's all. I think you missed the point in favour of personally attacking me..?
    If you're buying anything at the store, you're patronizing the store, so no, I didn't miss the point (you just appear not to have had one) and I didn't personally attack you, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Also, when it comes to the petstores and alternatives, consider that there are not always alternatives
    Yes, actually, there are always alternatives. No one is forced at gunpoint to buy guinea pigs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    So, the alternative is rehoming another guinea pig from a previous owner or "rescuing" at least 2 from a petstore. So.. what if there are none available in the region for re-homing..?
    I don't know, you might have to wait several days until there IS one available in the region for rehoming?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Is it better to not own a guinea pig at all? I mean, some people really want to care for at least some guinea pigs and don't live in an economically thriving city that has rescue centers or a large populus to find other animals.
    Uh, YES, it is better not to own a guinea pig at all. And places which are NOT economically thriving typically have MORE animals in need of rehoming, not fewer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    My main issue is just the pretentious preaching without justifiable support followed by lack of empathy towards those who just want to care for guinea pigs.
    I'm not sure why anyone needs "empathy" for wanting to care for guinea pigs. Be that as it may, though, no one here has a problem with people wanting to care for them. People who actually help CAUSE problems for guinea pigs, such as by purchasing from pet stores or backyard breeders, are going to get an earful here, though, as well they should.

  11. "Thank you, blackarrow, for this useful post," says:


  12. #8
    Cavy Slave tabikat55's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2009
    Posts
    214
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Quoted
    7 Post(s)
    Thanks
    95
    Thanks
    30 Rec'd/21 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    I admire your first post regarding the information you had collected about the life and care of GP's. Many of us did what you asked in adding to or correcting your information.

    I guess where I'm confused is that once this was done, your now questioning the information. Where's our professional support? Tried and true over years of expierence by many people. Why not take that as great information instead of starting from square one: buy 2 pigs from pet store (housed in a glass tank), buy your own tank (cause thats what they said to do), buy their GP food who's first ingrediant is wheat or corn (never seen a cornfield of guenea pigs eating), get them home and give them unlimited carrots and fruit.

    And as far as the idea of the GP's in the petstore. I'm pretty sure that we all feel bad about those left behind. But it all has to start somewhere. I remember the days when there was real fur coats, no rescues and the shelters were nothing more than a painful 3 day wait to be hit over the head and the smell of death while the dogs and cats waited their turn. Changes of mind sets take time. Thankfully because of people like Bob Barker, Betty White and a host of others, people are seeing the correct way to do things. Our Lawmakers are slowly creating new regulations and laws regarding the breeding and sale of animals. It's not enough but it's a start.

  13. #9
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    May 20, 2011
    Location
    - Canada -
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    6 Rec'd/6 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by tabikat55
    I admire your first post regarding the information you had collected about the life and care of GP's. Many of us did what you asked in adding to or correcting your information.
    My post was deleted and I was asked to explain myself. Even after I did, I received no further leniency for posting my notes. I asked how I can prove that I am only trying to be responsible and have yet to get a response. However, the same moderator continues to edit and move my threads. I think you'll find I rightfully find it rude.

    However, I agree with everything said so far, essentially. I am just noting some confusing initial impressions and wanted to discuss them. I'm not really trying to prove anything.. just exploring the discussion.

    I guess where I'm confused is that once this was done, your now questioning the information. Where's our professional support? Tried and true over years of expierence by many people. Why not take that as great information instead of starting from square one: buy 2 pigs from pet store (housed in a glass tank), buy your own tank (cause thats what they said to do), buy their GP food who's first ingrediant is wheat or corn (never seen a cornfield of guenea pigs eating), get them home and give them unlimited carrots and fruit.
    I don't understand the latter part of that..

    And as far as the idea of the GP's in the petstore. I'm pretty sure that we all feel bad about those left behind. But it all has to start somewhere. I remember the days when there was real fur coats, no rescues and the shelters were nothing more than a painful 3 day wait to be hit over the head and the smell of death while the dogs and cats waited their turn. Changes of mind sets take time. Thankfully because of people like Bob Barker, Betty White and a host of others, people are seeing the correct way to do things. Our Lawmakers are slowly creating new regulations and laws regarding the breeding and sale of animals. It's not enough but it's a start.
    I find that amicable. I just wanted to know why people barter other ambitious pet owners rather than politicians. There's a lot of threads and forums speaking to other pet owners, but I don't see much for actual protesting. The best has been petsmartcruelty.com

    Yeah, it's a start, and I really hope something comes of it. Though, like you said, it all starts somewhere. Even the small "rescue centers" can be just as susceptible to the criticism offered for petstores, why do people ignore this?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackarrow View Post
    Right.
    This board isn't responsible for every post everywhere. The position here is consistent - don't support breeders. And about every three days someone posts that rescue pigs aren't available in their area. They are wrong. If they are being sold, they are also being rehomed, and you just haven't tried hard enough, or aren't patient enough, to find out when and where. If you care, post your location, and people will find them for you.
    Yes, this tired argument is also rehashed here about every three days. Problem with it is, the purchase of one encourages the production of yet another litter, which is risky for the repeatedly-bred pig mill female, and results in yet more pigs ending up in the pet store. You've "saved" nothing.
    I've been searching for 2 months in my area and the only rescue center I found was a breeder. When I investigated it further, she demonstrated some guinea pigs to me and how they were kept in presentation cages. These cages are essentially the size of them. They were so incredibly docile (or frozen scared, not sure) that it was discomforting. Then I discover they sell snakes just downstairs. I understand feeders may be produced to, but doesn't it sound suspicious when a breeder, who claims to be a rescue center, also feeds snakes? Too many mixed signals; which is precisely my point.

    There may be a reliable rescue center I have overlooked, but you're ignoring my only point and that is that the criticism you are offering doesn't seem to be applied to them as well. Rescue centers can easily be criticized for being abusive, neglectful, etc. and that's what my impression was when I visited one.

    If you're buying anything at the store, you're patronizing the store, so no, I didn't miss the point (you just appear not to have had one) and I didn't personally attack you, either.
    Don't be so quick to judge either. I realize you're firm on your stance, and that is fine. However, don't be so presumptuous to assume where and from whom I bought my GP's. I've done my best to not reveal that so as to kept my standpoint unbias. All I am saying is that I adopted them. When you presumed I solicited and bought from a petstore, that was leading to personal assumptions, and you know that.

    You're still missing the point as well in favour of boasting your opinion. I'm going to repeat mixed signals and pretentious preaching as much as I can to make sure it's obvious.

    Yes, actually, there are always alternatives. No one is forced at gunpoint to buy guinea pigs.
    I don't know, you might have to wait several days until there IS one available in the region for rehoming? Uh, YES, it is better not to own a guinea pig at all. And places which are NOT economically thriving typically have MORE animals in need of rehoming, not fewer.
    Those alternatives can be fervently explored. You're still missing my point and that is that people will say negative things about every single place you can buy pets from, no less guinea pigs. Your stance may be firm, but I have seem equally passionate people say contrary to you and, as a newcomer to guinea pigs, it's confusing to decide who to trust when no credentials or justifications are added. Sorry but simply being assertive is not enough justification.

    The latter part of your quote here needs simple proof. My point is merely that, with a larger city, you will have more people who are likely to own pets. Smaller cities have less people to offer. I would believe that more rural areas would have more breeders. I'm not entirely sure, I'm not going to try and make my opinion sound like it is fact, I'm humbly admitting this is a guess from personal experience in my own investigations. I suggest you do the same unless you have some sort of evidence.

    I'm not sure why anyone needs "empathy" for wanting to care for guinea pigs. Be that as it may, though, no one here has a problem with people wanting to care for them. People who actually help CAUSE problems for guinea pigs, such as by purchasing from pet stores or backyard breeders, are going to get an earful here, though, as well they should.
    You seem to hold rescue centers in high regard, as though they are somehow immune to the other criticism you have dealt. Just what is done with animals that are not rescued for so long? How many animals can one rescue center hold? How much personal attention do they receive? Compare these with your other centers and I think you might become a little more insightful to the fact that they may be very similar. Furthermore, don't overlook the fact that there are many "breeders" who also claim to be "rescue centers" but don't publicize it. I would hope that, as an experienced pet owner with such passion, you would know this.

    At length, all I see is a lot of passionate people bickering which offers mixed signals for newcomers. There's also a lot pretentious preaching of, "You don't know what you're talking about!" "You're selfish" "If you don't like it, leave!" etc. However, where is the evidence?

    Here's a very good starting point for me, personally, which I have mentioned before. The cage sizes on the very first page of this website. How is any new person to know they are not arbitrary numbers? Is there any sort of evidence showing differences in GP behaviour in accordance to space? Is there any sort of proof? Because I have seen too many times people rudely respond to people, "It's right on the main page! Go look and read".

    ~

  14. "Thank you, Ertras, for this useful post," says:


  15. #10
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    Feb 18, 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    71
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    11 Rec'd/8 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    As far as where to adopt from, since it's a forum with many members posting, it only makes sense that you'll get mixed messages. You have to take all the info you care to consider and make your own decision. If there are no true rescues in your area then adopting from petfinder or craigslist is a great idea. Ideally you can find someone who loves and takes care of the guinea pigs but needs to rehome them for personal reasons. I don't really see how there could be an issue with doing that...? I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it seems like an isolated opinion to me.

  16. #11
    Pigaholic Extraordinaire Paula's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 12, 2007
    Location
    PacNW
    Posts
    6,610
    Mentioned
    207 Post(s)
    Quoted
    314 Post(s)
    Thanks
    782
    Thanks
    6,516 Rec'd/2,346 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    My post was deleted and I was asked to explain myself. Even after I did, I received no further leniency for posting my notes. I asked how I can prove that I am only trying to be responsible and have yet to get a response. However, the same moderator continues to edit and move my threads. I think you'll find I rightfully find it rude.
    No, actually, your initial post here was quite odd and was more or less citing, verbatim, information you found here. That tends to give us pause. I don't know what explanation you've provided, but I can tell you that if it were sufficient, your post would have been re-approved and we'd have moved on. Also, it's not rude to edit or move your threads. If you don't want it to happen further, attempt to comply with the rules of the forum and make an effort to start your threads in the appropriate sections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Even the small "rescue centers" can be just as susceptible to the criticism offered for petstores, why do people ignore this?
    Anything, including rescues and shelters, no matter the size, is open to criticism. Rightly or wrongly. It's not ignored. The difference is, is that generally rescues are trying to do something of value and benefit to animals whereas pet stores are only trying to spin a profit on them. Same is true of breeders. There are no doubt caring, considerate, responsible breeders out there. But the vast majority are folks trying to make a buck - whatever the potential cost to the animal. Rescues make mistakes, as do shelters. There's a tremendous difference between what they're doing and what a pet store is doing, though. That's the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    I've been searching for 2 months in my area and the only rescue center I found was a breeder. When I investigated it further, she demonstrated some guinea pigs to me and how they were kept in presentation cages. These cages are essentially the size of them. They were so incredibly docile (or frozen scared, not sure) that it was discomforting. Then I discover they sell snakes just downstairs. I understand feeders may be produced to, but doesn't it sound suspicious when a breeder, who claims to be a rescue center, also feeds snakes? Too many mixed signals; which is precisely my point.
    Do you understand that I can say I'm a billionaire without it actually being true? Newsflash - Same is generally true of just about anything. Someone calling herself and her operation a rescue doesn't make it true, and it most certainly doesn't speak for all rescues and shelters, nor is it an accurate representation of how even most of them operate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    However, don't be so presumptuous to assume where and from whom I bought my GP's. I've done my best to not reveal that so as to kept my standpoint unbias. All I am saying is that I adopted them. When you presumed I solicited and bought from a petstore, that was leading to personal assumptions, and you know that.
    Comical. Your standpoint is quite far from unbias[ed], and based on experience, when someone arrives here with this kind of post and this kind of thread and your pattern of posts, particularly those that are meant to stir up controversy (those which have not and will not be approved for public viewing) it's generally safe to assume there's a reason other than that the poster is merely seeking information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Here's a very good starting point for me, personally, which I have mentioned before. The cage sizes on the very first page of this website. How is any new person to know they are not arbitrary numbers? Is there any sort of evidence showing differences in GP behaviour in accordance to space? Is there any sort of proof? Because I have seen too many times people rudely respond to people, "It's right on the main page! Go look and read".
    There are quite a number of reasons. Guinea pigs given more space are less prone to health problems associated with less room. They live happier, healthier lives, and furthermore, why on earth would you insist on "proof" to give an animal you supposedly love more room to make him or her happy?

    As for proof that pet stores, and the cruelty they perpetuate, are ill-advised, here's an ad from Craigslist I saw today from folks who walked in and bought a guinea pig, had to meet no qualifications other than having the money in hand, and decided guinea pigs are not "their thing."

    Me and my husband just aren't guinea pig people so we are looking for a good home for our little girl. She is a baby guinea pig white with brown on each sides of her face she has a Mohawk with medium hair, she comes with the rest of her a water bottle, timothy hay, and a vitamin tablet.We are asking a re-homing fee of 20$
    baby female guinea pig

    A rescue would have done its best to help these people learn that guinea pigs were not "their thing" before they let them take the animal home only to turn around and resell it shortly thereafter after learning that!

    Oh, and another great example. My vet called me today to ask if I'd take in a pig that was brought to his office with a broken rear leg and sprained front paw. Her children did it, and yes, the pig was purchased at a pet store. A reputable, respectable rescue would have made sure that the parent understood that these are fragile, delicate animals, NOT to be left unattended with children so young as to not understand how to handle them properly, or they wouldn't have adopted the animal out to them. Does a pet store care? Nope. And you know, the owner wanted to euthanize this animal - an otherwise healthy four month old guinea pig, because she can just go buy another one for far less than she'd have to pay in treatment. It's a cruelty and a message that is perpetuated time and time again while these stores sell these animals like a gallon of milk. If you prefer to shop there for animals you are choosing to have as pets, that's just fine - but don't attempt to discredit absolutely everything this forum has been built on, and what its members have devoted much time, energy and money to simply because of that choice.

  17. "Thank you, Paula, for this useful post," say these 2 members:


  18. #12
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    May 20, 2011
    Location
    - Canada -
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    6 Rec'd/6 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula View Post
    No, actually, your initial post here was quite odd and was more or less citing, verbatim, information you found here. That tends to give us pause. I don't know what explanation you've provided, but I can tell you that if it were sufficient, your post would have been re-approved and we'd have moved on. Also, it's not rude to edit or move your threads. If you don't want it to happen further, attempt to comply with the rules of the forum and make an effort to start your threads in the appropriate sections.
    My first post here is not entirely from this site at all. I have information from various other sites and I am more than willing to provide that. In fact, I found more information from other sites. All I found from this website was arbitrary cage dimensions and a forum.

    I'd hope you could understand that, if a moderator refuses to respond to you private messages, but edits and modifies your posts, you might find that a bit suspicious. Unless you are an advocate of "guilty until proven innocent"

    And might I add.. I see a lot of, "If you don't like it, leave" and it really doesn't bother me.. I'm already on 2 other forums which have already been much friendlier. However, I am only contending that one particular moderator, on this forum, is an issue.

    Anything, including rescues and shelters, no matter the size, is open to criticism. Rightly or wrongly. It's not ignored. The difference is, is that generally rescues are trying to do something of value and benefit to animals whereas pet stores are only trying to spin a profit on them. Same is true of breeders. There are no doubt caring, considerate, responsible breeders out there. But the vast majority are folks trying to make a buck - whatever the potential cost to the animal. Rescues make mistakes, as do shelters. There's a tremendous difference between what they're doing and what a pet store is doing, though. That's the problem.

    Do you understand that I can say I'm a billionaire without it actually being true? Newsflash - Same is generally true of just about anything. Someone calling herself and her operation a rescue doesn't make it true, and it most certainly doesn't speak for all rescues and shelters, nor is it an accurate representation of how even most of them operate.
    Okay.. I don't see how you are not supporting my standpoint..? Any breeder or person, even, can claim to be a "rescue" center. So, when a new-comer is looking to buy guinea pigs, they'll easily flock to them.. Furthermore, it is not like there is a certification or inspection process (for places in my area, anyway). So, how can you know who to trust unless you investigate? Is it not possible that a particular petstore can be more suited for a pet than a particular "rescue" center? You guys venerate rescue centers, but I've found them to be just as guilty. Furthermore, your methods of retribution are ill-founded. If you want something done, you need political involvement.. not just a mess of people ridiculing other people..

    Comical. Your standpoint is quite far from unbias[ed], and based on experience, when someone arrives here with this kind of post and this kind of thread and your pattern of posts, particularly those that are meant to stir up controversy (those which have not and will not be approved for public viewing) it's generally safe to assume there's a reason other than that the poster is merely seeking information.
    This quote only proves my point of pretentious presuppositions. How can I even respond? You only proved my point anyway.

    There are quite a number of reasons. Guinea pigs given more space are less prone to health problems associated with less room. They live happier, healthier lives, and furthermore, why on earth would you insist on "proof" to give an animal you supposedly love more room to make him or her happy?
    Sounds like a sloppy way of saying.. "Yes, it's arbitrary and I have no proof".. am I wrong?

    You can try and save face all you want, but I still don't see any justification for it. It's just arbitrary dimensions. But hey, don't miss my point.. the point is that too many people doll out advice like that as though it's fact without any supporting evidence or credentials past "I've owned guinea pigs for X years". Sorry, not good enough for me. It may be good enough for you, but I find that, even someone who owns guinea pigs for several years, can still treat them badly. I'd hope you would agree.

    As for proof that pet stores, and the cruelty they perpetuate, are ill-advised, here's an ad from Craigslist I saw today from folks who walked in and bought a guinea pig, had to meet no qualifications other than having the money in hand, and decided guinea pigs are not "their thing."


    baby female guinea pig
    I concur on petstores. I would say the only way you could fully support a petstore is if you are completely familiar with their internal workings and that would obviously only be implicated onto the one explicit location. You won't see me debate you here.

    A rescue would have done its best to help these people learn that guinea pigs were not "their thing" before they let them take the animal home only to turn around and resell it shortly thereafter after learning that!
    My point is really just this..

    ..how can you "prove" you're a petstore to a newcomer..? How can you demonstrate reliability..? And that's the crux of my argument all together: how can a newcomer really tell who is the most reliable in a region between breeders, rescue centers, petstores, etc., when all of them are susceptible to the same criticism?

    Is that unreasonable to ask? Is that too "controversial"? I don't think so..

  19. "Thank you, Ertras, for this useful post," says:


  20. #13
    Cavy Champion, Previous Forum Moderator Ly&Pigs's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 05, 2004
    Location
    Mountain View, Arkansas
    Posts
    21,140
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2 Post(s)
    Thanks
    299
    Thanks
    5,447 Rec'd/1,918 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    My first post here is not entirely from this site at all. I have information from various other sites and I am more than willing to provide that. In fact, I found more information from other sites. All I found from this website was arbitrary cage dimensions and a forum.

    I'd hope you could understand that, if a moderator refuses to respond to you private messages, but edits and modifies your posts, you might find that a bit suspicious. Unless you are an advocate of "guilty until proven innocent"
    Now you are here in this thread making false accusations against me. I have never refused to answer your pm. I work and I can't be here 24/7. It takes only a couple of seconds to move or edit a post. I can squeeze that in on breaks from work. Responding to a pm takes more time, plus I wanted to think about it.

    I am not going to drag our private conversations out on the forum. I would ask that you do the same.

    This post was moved to this forum because this is where it belongs. Your posts have been edited because you keep putting ~ at the very end of your posts like a signature. We don't allow signatures nor do we like symbols in posts. It's distracting and unnecessary. So please stop doing it.

    Since you've been here, you've been combative, judgmental, rude and making false accusations against me and I have done nothing more than ask of you a simple question and ask that private matters remain PRIVATE. I don't care if you like me or not. I am not here to be all buddy buddy with the members. I am here for the best interests of the site and first and foremost, I am here for the pigs.

    I would appreciate that if you have any further comments against me, to please private message me and I will get back to you at my earliest convenience. Sometimes it could be hours or days as I work Thurs-Mon. Now if you will excuse me, I have to get some sleep as I have to be at work in less than 7 1/2 hours and I have to work a 10-12 hour shift today.

  21. #14
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    May 20, 2011
    Location
    - Canada -
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    0
    Thanks
    6 Rec'd/6 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs View Post
    Now you are here in this thread making false accusations against me. I have never refused to answer your pm. I work and I can't be here 24/7. It takes only a couple of seconds to move or edit a post. I can squeeze that in on breaks from work. Responding to a pm takes more time, plus I wanted to think about it.
    I have a life and full-time job as well.. yet somehow I can time manage. Anyone who uses time as an excuse, doesn't know how to manage it.

    I am not going to drag our private conversations out on the forum. I would ask that you do the same.
    I think you'll find that I havn't said your name once.

    This post was moved to this forum because this is where it belongs. Your posts have been edited because you keep putting ~ at the very end of your posts like a signature. We don't allow signatures nor do we like symbols in posts. It's distracting and unnecessary. So please stop doing it.
    I apologize for that; I didn't initially see it in the rules. I will do my best to try avoiding it. Please understand it is a deep habit as I do frequent many forums and this is the only one I must censor it in. I did want to send a PM to apologize for that, but you'll understand that I could not because of forum limitations.

    Since you've been here, you've been combative, judgmental, rude and making false accusations against me and I have done nothing more than ask of you a simple question and ask that private matters remain PRIVATE. I don't care if you like me or not. I am not here to be all buddy buddy with the members. I am here for the best interests of the site and first and foremost, I am here for the pigs.
    Since I've been here, you've done nothing but been judgmental, prejudice, and unforgiving. I've responded to your pm's, asked what you needed for proof, and contacted administrators. However, you only respond in the public forum... why is that?

    I would appreciate that if you have any further comments against me, to please private message me and I will get back to you at my earliest convenience. Sometimes it could be hours or days as I work Thurs-Mon. Now if you will excuse me, I have to get some sleep as I have to be at work in less than 7 1/2 hours and I have to work a 10-12 hour shift today.
    I have already PM'd you twice and you havn't responded so I PM'd other administrator's. It was your choice to expose that in this thread.. not mine. Furthermore, don't make the mistake of thinking you're the only one that works long shifts. Somehow, I can manage it.. why can't you? In addition, I'm a member of many, many more forums than this one.. and I manage 2 of my own. If I can do that, why can't you respond to a PM? I see a lot of excuses, but very little in the respect of substantial replies to the subject matter at hand (which seems to be more about saving your ego than anything).

    ~

  22. "Thank you, Ertras, for this useful post," says:


  23. #15
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    Feb 09, 2009
    Location
    SoCA
    Posts
    1,373
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Thanks
    7
    Thanks
    100 Rec'd/95 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3

    Re: First Thoughts

    I have found in all the years I have had guinea pigs that this site and guinea lynx are the two best sites that have the most knowledge about guinea pigs. I have checked out a couple others but I stick with these two. Everone doesn't have to be nice to me. I don't care I just ignore it. I just want to take the best care of my animals possible.

    I get the feeling all you want is to cause trouble not to actually find out the best way to take care of your guineas.

  24. #16
    Pigaholic Extraordinaire Paula's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 12, 2007
    Location
    PacNW
    Posts
    6,610
    Mentioned
    207 Post(s)
    Quoted
    314 Post(s)
    Thanks
    782
    Thanks
    6,516 Rec'd/2,346 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    Since I've been here, you've done nothing but been judgmental, prejudice, and unforgiving. I've responded to your pm's, asked what you needed for proof, and contacted administrators. However, you only respond in the public forum... why is that?
    I am really the only other active administrator/moderator at this point and I've gotten nothing from you.

    As for why Ly replied to this thread ... just a wild guess, but perhaps it's because it's the one you started to make accusations and insinuations? It's rather asinine to start a thread to complain about a person and then feign disgust when said person responds to it.

  25. #17
    Moderator CavyMama's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 19, 2009
    Location
    Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    5,789
    Mentioned
    294 Post(s)
    Quoted
    700 Post(s)
    Thanks
    352
    Thanks
    1,441 Rec'd/992 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertras View Post
    As a new guinea pig owner, I wanted to make sure that I get the best information and healthy guinea pigs. I wanted to be sure who I should adopt, where, etc. However, I got a lot of mixed messages.
    I commend your willingness and desire to get the best information about guinea pig care. Some people get them without a thought about how or IF they are able to take proper care of them. So you are already a head of the game.

    I understand about getting the mixed messages about care. Most information you get, including from guinea pig care books, is outdated and inaccurate. This includes diet and yes, cage size,

    Firstly, I had people tell me I shouldn't get a guinea pig from a petstore for several reasons. Pretty much PetSmart Cruelty
    Yes, pet stores are a bad idea for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the cruel conditions that some animals are kept in. Supporting pet stores that sell live animals is funding the breeding mills that the animals come from. These breeding mills keep back breeding the females until they are of no use to them anymore. They care nothing for the strain and stress it can put on the body of the female. They are only concerned with making a quick buck.

    The employees at pet stores are poorly trained in animal care. They often mis-sex a small animal which can lead to accidental litters. They often know very little about small animal care.

    Pet stores also carry products that can be detrimental to the health of a guinea pig. Again, they care nothing for what’s RIGHT to do in terms of care. They don’t bother to find out what proper diet entails. Their only concern is selling products to make money.

    In addition, I see a lot of places (this forum included) brag about being the most credible and best bastion for guinea pig knowledge. However, if there are any contrary points or discussions put up for debate, they are censored. For example; the dimensions on the splash page for this very website; where is the proof? The support? For anyones real knowledge, they're just arbitrary dimensions. However, I am willing to be I could be banned for simply saying that rather than having some sort of justification given.
    I’m not sure I’ve seen on this forum where people are “bragging” about being the most credible. As for contrary points being censored, quite the opposite is true. I’ve seen many a lively debate about this or that. The difference here being when people come around promoting improper care for guinea pigs that can cause them harm (i.e. housing them outdoors, breeding, store-bought cages, etc).

    Unless there's an act of law or legislation, I can't see much being done about mostly anything you're against with pet ownership. If people can still attain handguns regardless of laws, they'll be able to buy and breed pets contrary to people's moral standpoint.
    I’m pretty sure people said the same thing about slavery and women’s rights. Those changes didn’t happen overnight but they did happen.

    It may be amicable to think a forum can do this alone, but I contend it only makes things worse. For most of the reasons people say to avoid petstores is why I was encouraged to go to a petstore. They're abused, not treated right, etc. correct? Sorry, that makes me want to remove them for myself. Especially considering that the simple act of not buying them won't do anything. You truly do need law officials to make some sort of passing.

    I think you are misunderstanding the purpose here. We aren’t trying to be this isolated, self-contained change machine. By promoting proper care, by educating people who come to the site and others in our lives, word spreads. I talk to many people on a day to day basis about proper guinea pig care and they might, in turn, talk to people THEY know. It’s the ripple effect. It starts small and spreads out.

    As for removing abused and mistreated animals, if pet store funds start to dwindle because word is being spread about the kinds of abuses that go on, they won’t be able to fund the breeding mills. If word is spread about guinea pigs being in shelters and rescues (many people are unaware that this even happens), more people will be more likely to go there instead of to the store.

    Also, the fees that people pay to adopt from a shelter or rescue goes toward helping other guinea pigs. Money that people pay a pet store, goes to fund breeding mills to create more “merchandise” for the pet stores. It’s doing good, whether you want to believe it or not.

    There will always be petstores so long as there will always be little kids that like fuzzy little things. Get over it.
    No, there will always be pet stores if people keep patronizing them. If the money trail dries up, so do the pet stores. Kids are just as happy to get a “fuzzy little thing” from a rescue.

    As for “getting over it”. We will not. We are here to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

  26. "Thank you, CavyMama, for this useful post," say these 4 members:


  27. #18
    Cavy Slave
    Joined
    Mar 29, 2011
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1 Post(s)
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Re: First Thoughts

    I don't understand why everyone is getting so riled up. I am somewhat in agreement with this fellow. I like how he is asking questions, instead of just blindly following facts that no one has shown proof of. I feel like that is all he is asking for. For people to say we don't have concrete proof, but this is the best we have at the moment. He is not personally attacking our beliefs... The old cage standard used to be small, what if no one asked why that size was that size? It would never have gotten bigger. I like his questions, what if they lead to better, more accurate, and proven information?

    Also I feel like people are arguing not with information and facts, but with "emotion".

    This reminds me of a episode of In Day 30s, in which a white male who like to go hunting, lived 30 days with a vegetarian family. At first the family repeated the same type slogan, meat is bad, meat is disgusting, etc, without properly explaining why and how come. This led to nothing. The hunter did not understand. To his questions, and I have read the whole thread, does not give a good answer to his questions. The vegetarians knew information the hunter did not know, so when they chanted their meat is bad, is disgusting.. etc they understood what it meant, but to an outsider it made zero sense. You have to explain things, and that is what I think he is looking for. On the shower, they finally got to the point of showing him video clips and sat down and explained to him, the cruelty of the meat production etc, he saw that and he understood that. Although he did not swear off meat, he had a new understanding of it. Knowledge comes first.
    Last edited by Mazroth; 05-27-11 at 05:04 pm.

  28. "Thank you, Mazroth, for this useful post," say these 2 members:


  29. #19
    Cavy Star Cogni's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 07, 2009
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    1,466
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Quoted
    15 Post(s)
    Thanks
    159
    Thanks
    243 Rec'd/183 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    There are many ways an individual can help stop animal cruelty. Not buying from pet stores is one important way and it is not a hardship in any way. Dog and cat lovers, a much more numerous population, boycotted pet stores that sold dogs and cats--of which there are a truly frightening number of homeless animals in the U.S., we are talking in the millions--and the result is that no major chain sells them. A similar boycott will eventually stop small mammal sales by the chains--has already done so in some locales--, although other 'exotics' will take more work yet. Being politically active and learning how to organize and lobby legislators about animal issues is another way. Writing letters to editors and guest pieces in local newspapers can help also. A fourth way is to foster homeless animals to the extent you can afford the time and money. Other people donate money or time to animal shelters and rescues. Others, including various people on this site including the site owner, run rescues themselves. Believe me, there are lots of ways to help and this site has people helping in all different ways. The minimum is to adopt a pair or more of piggies who need homes and to love and care for them, without putting money into the pockets of breeders (which buying from pet stores does). Homeless guinea pigs, given up by their former owners, are everywhere there are pet stores selling them.
    Keep reading all you can from this forum, and don't get bent out of shape if you find replies you don't like. Believe me I read every possible thing online and in books before I got my piggies, and this site and Guinea Lynx really are the best sources anywhere. Use your common sense and build up your experience. You'll soon see who knows a lot. The cage size minimums are really the minimums devised by experienced people who saw what it takes to keep a healthy, exercised pig indoors. More space is better, but a piggie can still run around a bit in the minimum cage sizes given. Smaller cage sizes do not permit running, and that is unfortunate for animals who evolved to run.

  30. #20
    Moderator CavyMama's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 19, 2009
    Location
    Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    5,789
    Mentioned
    294 Post(s)
    Quoted
    700 Post(s)
    Thanks
    352
    Thanks
    1,441 Rec'd/992 Posts

    Re: First Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazroth View Post
    I don't understand why everyone is getting so riled up. I am somewhat in agreement with this fellow. I like how he is asking questions, instead of just blindly following facts that no one has shown proof of. I feel like that is all he is asking for. For people to say we don't have concrete proof, but this is the best we have at the moment. He is not personally attacking our beliefs... The old cage standard used to be small, what if no one asked why that size was that size? It would never have gotten bigger. I like his questions, what if they lead to better, more accurate, and proven information?
    I haven't seen anyone get "riled up" at all. In fact, I think people have been very UN-riled up, considering what the response COULD be. He is throwing accusations around which have no merit (censorship? unanswered PMs?) and then splashes about on the forum, items that have no business being for public consumption.

    Also I feel like people are arguing not with information and facts, but with "emotion".
    On the contrary, I haven't seen anyone responding with anger or exceptional emotional posts.

    To his questions, and I have read the whole thread, does not give a good answer to his questions.
    Then, I think you better reread the thread because many people have responded to his questions with explanations and information. If he chooses to ignore the information, that's on him, not us.

    It's unfair of him to throw accusations around, especially when they have nothing to do with his questions. What is said between him and the mods should remain so but he is choosing to drag it out into the light.

    Knowledge comes first.
    Yes it does. And my first comment to him was to commend his willingness to get that information. As was many people's response. No one's response was of a "How dare you!" nature. No one was being harsh. No one was belittling him. No one was getting "riled up" as you put it. In fact, I think everyone's been particularly level in their response, considering what I've seen happen in the past with posts like his.

User Tag List

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •