Abuse in the name of training!

[evilnumberlady]

Again- I shocked myself. A friend actually clued me in on that- she said she wouldn't do anything to her dog she hadn't tried on herself. I thought that was very logical. So I shocked myself. So did she. It isn't fun, but it's not that bad. It's like... I don't know... a shock. It's hard to explain. It's like someone waking you up from a solid sleep by shaking you, I guess. You go "yikes!" but it doesn't hurt per se and it certainly doesn't sting or throb or anything afterward.

For the record, my parents shocked themselves as well. Or, rather, my mother did. She didn't find the jolt to be too painful. However, when *I* touched the collar as it was malfunctioning it hurt incredibly. I'm not sure if this was because I was a child and weighed something more comparable to the dog (though I was still heavier) or because the malfunction of the system turned the jolt up to maximum power. So, I don't find the fact that you also shocked yourself very compelling.

Evilnumberlady- I would have sued the pants off of your electric fence company. They caused you and the dog a lot of suffering. Or at the very least yelled at them a LOT. There is no excuse for an electric fence to malfunction like that. Ours had several safety features built in to prevent just such a thing and that was like 20 years ago we installed it. If it shorted it died, it didn't shock the dog randomly. That I agree, is cruel.

I was just a kid at the time, so perhaps my parents did do something and I just don't know about it. As for the "safety features" you speak of, ours had the same. This happened when I was maybe about 13, so only 10 or so years ago. It didn't happen because we had some outdated system like you imply. Everyone who uses an electric fence faces the same risks my family did, and I sincerely hope you can learn from our mistakes and stop using and defending that abomination.

Evilnumberlady - I am sorry you and your dog had to go through that. This perfectly demonstrates the risk that people take when they use electric collars. In my opinion it is not worth the risk.

Thank you. I entirely agree.

Even though no one mentioned this to me I'd also like to address the potential argument that someone should have been outside with my dog. At the time, she was in a caged run.

 

[crazywiggy]

Maybe someone who has themselves specifically trained an animal NO! can come here and explain better how they trained it?

You could use training discs rather than the word "No". I couldn't find a link with an explaination of how they work so I will try to explain it myself.

Most people assume the only point of training discs is as a distraction, but this is incorrect. Training discs should be properly introduced to your dog so that he learns that the noise means "don't even bother".

Start by taking a handful of small treats and give your dog a couple. Then "accidentally" drop one on the floor. As your dog moves to take the dropped treat throw the discs to the floor (not at the dog) so they make the noise, then immediately pick up the treat. Repeat. The dog learns that when he hears the discs to not bother even attempting what he is doing. Obviously there is more to it than that but I can't find the book with the full details in.

The dog learns effectively the same thing as "no" without any aversives. This is just one method - there are others.

 

[crazywiggy]

I forgot to metion the other obvious answer - train the dog properly to start with. If the dog is properly trained in basic obediance, so that he will obey even around distractions, you should never need to use the word "no". Two of the best things to train are "come" and the emergency "down".

For example, if the dog is well trained but goes for the parrot you could use the command "down". He can't lay down and attack the bird at the same time. The dog can then gets praised for obeying the command, the parrot gets away and everyone is happy - no aversives necessary.

 

[V+Pigs]

I agree and this is how i explain it (even though these people do not deserve one)

Really stupid people (who are the ones with the dominat nature) use the dogs supposed "dominace problem" as a reasons to show their masculinity in an agressive act of dominace. Their uncopassionte, primitive, unintelligence, that causes them to lash out, i guess makes them for a brief moment feel that they are more powerful (UH DUH!!! 250 lb man vs 100 lb dog, I guess they can't do the math). All to attack a animal that was "missbehaving" due to his owners own ignorance. Training is a easy thing to do if your kind to the dog and positive about it (awarding treats, praise, etc).

I have absolutly no tolorance for people who fit this discription. And i am happy to know you all agree. And if you know this is happening please do something to stop it, every voice counts.

Veronica + Bella

 

[Alusdra]

Well- if this is how people assume I mean when I say "train no" I suppose I had better explain myself!

As for actually training a "no" rather than using it as a distraction, what do you do exactly? Start training session. Put dog on leash. Jerk leash while screaming "no." Spray water in face (if dog hates that) while screaming "no." Take stick and pretend to strike the dog, pretend to kick the dog, pretend to punch the dog (if dog has been previously abused in such a manner) while screaming "no." Figure out more stuff like that and do those too. Repeat a few times. If the dog ever tries to move, scream "no" and do at least one of the above. End session. Something like that? How else do you train a dog to associate a word with a physical aversive other than by pairing them in use? And what behavior are you training exactly? To not move a muscle? To stiffen, growl, snap, bite (gradually escalating) in self defense? Urinate on himself? -_- How is "no" a command, general, specific, or in any way? If you want a potentially very handy initial cue to simply freeze the body, so that you can use it before you've trained other cues, you can certainly train a "stop" positively. There is no need to use any word (or pressure on the body, or crates/kennels or timeouts) as a punisher.

I can't even see such a training technique beginning to work! Ieee... Firstly let me say that we aren't the best dog trainers in the world since I'm the one "who should do that stuff" but I've been away at school the entire time we've had both our current dog and the dog before that. So they get trained in a rather as-we-go not reinforced in any way positively or negatively kind of way. Like- 'move' being trained by walking into the dog until they learn we mean 'move out of the way I'm going to be walking there', etc. (Hopefully no one objects to that being negative, if so I may have to throw in the towel so far as this debate is concerned).

How we train 'no'- when the dog (or bird, or whatever) does something undesirable like... trying to get out the door, or chewing on something, or I don't know... peeing on the floor. Whatever. We say 'no!' run over to the dog and, for the first, push them back from the open door and make them sit and stay. If they do it, treat. If they don't do it, make them pay attention with a treat and repeat other learned behaviors until they are paying attention to us not the open door. Etc. Or for the second- 'no!' run over saying 'drop it!' If that's all that's needed, we ask 'where's your toy?' until the dog finds their appropriate toy or we find one for them. For the third we say 'no!' run over to the dog and take it outside as fast as possible until we get to an appropriate place in the yard, then we say 'good potty!' At the end of using no for just about every situation we ever encounter, they know that 'no!' means stop and look at mom for something to do. Thus- 'training no'. I'm aware that the parrot incident was a terrible accident and one that was not repeated. From that point on there was at least a cage between them, either the dog or the bird in a cage in the same room, or there was a solid door between them. But- the parrot let herself out of her cage one day and flew into the dog room. 'No!' came in very handy there, as did my decision to not clip the bird again (she could get away) and maybe the aversion training (eg- 'no!' whenever the dog looked at the bird 'where's your toy?' or 'come here, sit, stay (away from bird)' and give a cookie or squirting the dog with a water bottle). So maybe I'm using the wrong term or something? I'm not trained in behavior, so it's very possible.

As for training with a jerk- that probably is being misunderstood, too. First- remember that this was used with shelter dogs in a moderately high kill shelter that in many cases had not ever been on a leash or were on a lead their entire lives or were stray. And in addition the only leashes there were were the ones that got donated and the collars, so most of the time I would use either a regular collar and lead or a leash/collar slipping nylon thing (especially we used that for the aggressive or very forceful 'storming' dogs). And for each day I had 1 hour to walk anywhere from 1 to 15+ dogs and if I didn't get to one it's adoption chances went down the tube.

Ok- so assuming we get the collar on, which could take the whole hour or even a week for a very unsocialized dog just by itself- we leave the kennel. I usually let them pull to their hearts content inside as it was slick concrete and they got no traction. Once we're outside if the dog pulls I say 'no pulling' give a quick tug and if the dog stops pulling, great. I say 'good dog' and we resume our walk. If not I stop moving and wait until the dog realizes its going nowhere. Once it looks at me I say 'good boy/girl!' enthusiastically. If it comes to me, we get a pet session (as these doubled as socialization sessions, too, actually going somewhere wasn't of any concern). If the dog pays no attention whatsoever to the fact its not going anywhere for a long time (like >2 minutes, approximately) and especially if I've been warned it's one of 'those dogs' that will make itself pass out, I give a jerk and say 'hey'. If that doesn't work, a stronger jerk. If that doesn't work, I 'climb' up the leash until I can grab the dog's collar. Then I would try to get its attention by tapping it on the head, offering a treat, whatever- depending on how safe I feel with this dog (some of the ones we got in could be quite vicious with misdirected attacks). Usually once I got the dog's attention, we could play and relax a bit and slowly work down the steps until the dog was walking reasonably well on the leash. These would be extreme cases. For most of the dogs, when they started pulling all they needed was a quick tug, 'no pull' and 'good dog' when they stopped maybe like 3 times in a 10 minute walk and they would be fine. Repeated over the week and most of the dogs would walk well on leashes for most people. I don't see a problem with that. If people still do, offer suggestions, please. And don't tell me to clicker train 100s of shelter animals I'm only going to know maybe 100 minutes before they get adopted or euthanized. Because I don't think it's practical to have a clicker and treats when manhandling half-feral dogs. Socialization and exercise were the main goals for my time there, not training.

For personal pets clicker training is a great idea. I get absolutely frustrated when I use a clicker, though. I believe that the way I train uses another 'bridge' that being 'good', no? Anyway, for your personal pets you have the time and (hopefully) the intent to do training with them.

lol- and it seems pretty obvious that I'm having conciseness problems, too, but there's pithy and then there isn't being thorough. If you need ten pages to get a thought out... well, so long as it's entertaining and well thought out- go for it.

 

[salana]

Yes, thank you Salana- I meant no animal should be left outside unsupervised/ with someone nearby in case of problems especially so when there is inclement weather and even more so if there is no shelter available. Which I would assume there wouldn't be if the dog is on a electric/traditional fence system or line which I consider for temporary outside play times.

YOU may assume this, but in reality, that is what most fenced yards are used for.

 

[Weatherlight]

Calliso, jumping up is a frequent problem. Depending on the dog and aversives used, it can be "cured" fairly quickly or take years, if the dog ever "learns." My first dog, I thought the same way most people here do. I used all the "good, humane, effective" advice about "proper training methods." I screamed "No!" at him while kneeing him, grabbing his front paws, squeezing them to the point of pain/discomfort and holding them up until he lost his balance, jerking on his leash away from people he tried to jump on, all the usual stuff. (Although one thing I didn't do much of was step on his hind paws--that seemed too painful, even to me at the time.) It took him about a year and half before he stopped jumping on people. OTOH, in literally just a few minutes I got a shelter dog (very large for a pit bull) to stop jumping on me by reinforcing her for sitting, and just not doing anything to her when she jumped. (I did not make a big production of ignoring her--especially to sensitive, needy dogs, this can be a huge aversive. Humans might not think so, but the dog feels hurt whether or not humans notice.) Whenever she greeted me from that point on, she would eagerly sit. Granted, I did not generalize this to other people, as I had no one else to work with (I was volunteering to walk and play with the dogs and decided on my own to try clicker training, only my partner was with me, and he's afraid of dogs...hooray...)

Alusdra, I do object to "teaching" dogs by walking into them. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world, but when someone walks into me, I expect them to say "excuse me," and I won't tolerate someone doing it intentionally. If they say, "Oh, I only did that on purpose to teach you a good lesson about getting out of my way," uh, you can probably imagine my reaction. It's just an unpleasant thing to experience, and I don't want to do unpleasant things to my furkids.

Why don't you positively train "no" or "look" (at me, make eye contact) as a cue to stop and look at your face? Seems a whole lot faster and easier than expecting the dog to generalize the same word (as "prepare to sit back," "release that from your mouth," "don't urinate," etc) over time. Training is about getting behaviors, such as stop moving, look at the handler, lie down, etc. Behaviors can be trained positively. People use aversives when they don't want to teach the dog to do something, but rather to discourage the dog from doing something (and when they're being ignorant, lazy, and/or cruel imo). You use "no" as a cue for a simple behavior that can be actively trained. The way you put it, it seems you understand this, and aren't under the illusion that no dog understands the sound "no" to mean the English word "no." Cueing a dog to sit, stop, look, etc is not aversive (so long as the dog does not find the behaviors themselves aversive, and the cues aren't either such as by being poisoned); squirting with a water bottle (so long as the dog does find it aversive) for your own faulty training is adding unnecessary suffering. Training catching sight of the bird, for example, as a cue to look at you is pretty easy, like teaching any other cue. Just use your verbal/hand signal cue every time she looks at the bird. It's like teaching the automatic sit for heeling. It's recommended that dogs be taught an automatic down when a toddler enters the room for households with dogs and very young children, and I think that sort of thing is a good idea.

Are you saying you allowed them to pull and move forward at the same time when indoors? Well, at least dogs are good discriminators...

The dog learns that pulling outside means s/he can't move forward. Extinction. The dog learns that hitting the end of the leash can mean s/he gets neck pain. Positive punishment. The dog that gets distracted with a treat from pulling learns that pulling constantly means a treat. Positive reinforcement for pulling. If praise works at all, it's most strongly a motivator in the real world as secondary negative reinforcement (when there is the presence of praise, there is the absence of aversives).

Teaching a dog to actively stay near you (as opposed to *not* going far from you), such as by targetting your knee or capturing/shaping coming near you, can be easy and fairly fast. I'd do this in an enclosed area without a leash. The leash should be like an airbag--there, but not actively used, only comes into play to alleviate something really bad when it happens. Some clicker trainers like using negative punishment (dog can't go forward if s/he pulls)/extinction (pulling is not reinforced) but I don't like inflicting unnecessary suffering (in the form of frustration, confusion, and neck pressure in this case). Also, I'd rather not deal with extinction bursts if pulling has worked for the dog in the past. I don't see why you won't clicker train a dog if you're willing to leashjerk train a dog. You can clicker train a dog to get over fear of humans, to tolerate handling, and of course to stay on a loose leash for troublefree walks/jogs.

I totally get that using a clicker requires holding it (or at least putting it between your teeth or under your foot), and I'm physically very clumsy/slow/uncoordinated, so I'm not the best clicker trainer. Just saying a word seems so much easier, true. But the clicker is superior in important ways so I stick with it, and it's true that it gets easier over time. You can, of course, practice aspects of using a clicker without clicker training an animal, such as using a clicker while holding other objects, or getting your timing better. That's actually highly recommended for people who are starting out.

Why Can't I Just Use My Voice? | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Also interesting: The Neurophysiology of Clicker Training | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

 

[HiMyNameIsAmy]

Well then, if everything you guys say is true, then I, along with the rest of my family, must be some sort of horrid pet owner who puts their pet through daily trauma! I mean, I use a choke chain on him, since he's 85 pounds. While he's very easy to walk, he IS 80+ pounds and very strong, and he WILL pull. Since the other collar causes him to ACTUALLY choke, (he'll actually cough and gasp for breath) and the harness falls off (he's not an angel. he'll run off, and there ARE cars around) I am, infact, forced to do this. But, then again, this is nothing compared to the severe abusive relationship/training he went through as a puppy. You see, he was a horrid puppy. He would bite so hard he'd draw blood, and he didn't respond to ANYTHING. Well, mostly anything. You see, one particular trainer said we had to dominate him (YES! THE D WORD! OH, THE HORROR!). This involved grabbing him, pushing him onto the floor, and standing over him firmly telling him no whenever he struggled and bit us. We had to stand there until he went into a calm, submissive state. Yes, it sounds horrid, but I can assure you that the results of this severe abuse/trauma were, infact, miraculous.

He went from never smiling, never wagging his tail, to letting his mouth hang open and having his tongue hang out. His tail is now in stiff ring position (yes, when he has his tail up, it makes a perfect circle). He is SO easy to walk, I can LITERALLY walk him with one pinky. Every neighbor has deemed him one of the nicest dogs in the neighborhood. He gets along with all animals, even one dog who is known for being animal aggressive. We bring him with us everywhere, even to get ice cream. Every time we go out, families will stop and pet him. He loves children, and countless children have pet him. He spends a good chunk of his time outside (he ASKS to go outside) running around the backyard. He often brings toys outside with him, and enjoys running laps around the pool. He also has a number of dog friends. One particular dog friend he visits a few nights a week, and the owner constantly remarks on how completely happy he seems. Other people have made this observation. Another friend of his gets loose sometimes, and every time he gets loose he comes over to our house. He'll actually scratch at the front door in order to see Fritzie (that's his name). Infact, one time, a woman pulled over her car to pet him. I'm 100% serious. She then ranted about what a wonderful pet he is. When we have people over, they will often spend their entire visit praising him. Again, I am NOT exageratting.

But, oh, the horror's we put him through! The pain! The suffering! Look as he STRUGGLES to make it through the day:

(broken link removed)

Oh, the poor thing!

 

[John4216]

Amy just because your dog is now sweet and well behaved in no way means that the methods you used are humane and proper. If you torture a human they will be well behaved as well to avoid further pain.

As for the pulling issue, that is easily fixed, without the choke, where they will not pull at all.

 

[HiMyNameIsAmy]

Um, he is by no means a perfect little angel. He barks crazily whenever someone comes to the door. He still plays too rough, but we now have control over the situation. The word NO is meaningless to him. He's ALWAYS stealing food. We use the choke chain BECAUSE he pulls. The collar he has on regularly is one of those collars where the part you hook the leash onto goes through a loop, and when we pull the whole collar tightens and he chokes. He's never so much as seemed uncomfortable with the choke chain.

 

[Calliso]

Um, he is by no means a perfect little angel. He barks crazily whenever someone comes to the door. He still plays too rough, but we now have control over the situation. The word NO is meaningless to him. He's ALWAYS stealing food. We use the choke chain BECAUSE he pulls. The collar he has on regularly is one of those collars where the part you hook the leash onto goes through a loop, and when we pull the whole collar tightens and he chokes. He's never so much as seemed uncomfortable with the choke chain.

I am not trying to judge you or anything. But first off in your first post you said harnesses would fall off. Are you sure it was fitted properly? Also correct me if I am wrong but is his everyday collar a choke chain/collar? Because that can be REALLY dangerous. Especially if you hook him up to a lead outside. All it takes is him getting tangled up and that leash pulling tight and if someone doesn;t catch it in time...you can end up with a dead dog. And from what it sounds like he walks fine now right? So have you tried walking him with a regular collar now?

Anyway the whole dominance thing *like pushing him down and stuff* I can;t really comment on. I mean every dog is different and trully I personally donlt think it is fair to say one training size *if you know what I mean* fits all. Not to mention I would have to see if for myself to really see it. I mean was it just a firm push down like you might push a dog down to make it lay down?
Also I donlt think you are a horrible petowner

 

[HiMyNameIsAmy]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was fitted fine. And I got the two collars mixed up. His regular collar is a choke chain (and no, he is not tied up). We use a spike collar on him when he goes for a walk.

 

[crazywiggy]

Hi Amy,

I'm not going to say you are a horrible dog owner because the things you have done to your dog are still legal, even "normal" so most people don't know any better.

The problem is these training tools and methods are cruel, dangerous, not particularly effective and unecessary.

If you found a "good" trainer they could teach you how to get your dog to walk to heel, obey your commands etc without abusing him. Humane methods of dog training are far more effective, they do not hurt your dog, and are far less likely to cause physical or psychological damage. You have already mentioned that he is not well trained, and still pulls - despite the use of physical violence, choke chains and prong collars. Clearly your current training methods are not working.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was fitted fine. And I got the two collars mixed up. His regular collar is a choke chain (and no, he is not tied up). We use a spike collar on him when he goes for a walk.

Oh my goodness..... :eye-poppi NEVER leave a choke chain on a dog as a normal collar, that is asking for disaster. Even the pro-choke chain brigade (the ones who tell you they are fine if used correctly) tell you never to leave one on an unattended dog.
And a spike - I presume you mean a prong? I do not have words for that...

PLEASE, please consider finding a decent, humane dog trainer (or buying a decent book) and learning how to train your dog humanely. If you need any help I would be more than happy to assist, but I literally beg you to stop treating your dog like this??? :guilty:

 

[Hooray4Ashley]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was fitted fine. And I got the two collars mixed up. His regular collar is a choke chain (and no, he is not tied up). We use a spike collar on him when he goes for a walk.

Amy,

I work for a vets office and have seen AMAZING things in the way of dogs managing to get out of harnesses...even properly fitted ones, so I can strongly believe you on that. If they want out of it bad enough, they will.

Just be cautious with having a regular choke collar on him all day. I have a coworker whose dog got hung up on something when no one was around and choked to death. That said, I would remove any sort of collar when you leave the house, because I'm sure it could happen just as easily with a regular collar.

 

[Calliso]

I am curious how many training methods did you use before Amy? I am just curious not trying to assume that you didn;t try more humane methods first. Maybe you did and they trully did not work. Also though you said he still pulls right? I mean without the spike collar? I have a feeling imo the reason he walks so well with the spike collar on is because he knows it will hurt like heck if he does pull. But imo the goal should be to totally eliminate the spike and the choke collar. Such things should only be used if absolutely necessary and only for training. They are not meant for everyday use I think even the people that sell these things will tell you that. Which makes me wonder..did the trainer you used tell you it was ok to leave a choke chain on him all the time? If so I will repeat again that is very dangerous. Even if you donlt have a leash on him in the house he can still get caught up on something. But if your trainer told you to use it all the time..I would definately question the other things he told you as well.

And from this thread I have also learned of a collar that goes around their heads that is supposed to be very good at controling them. It;s called a halti I think. You could try looking into that if you feel that he would pull no matter what with a regular collar. They are also much more comfortable I imagine then a spike or choke collar.

 

[Alusdra]

To add- choke chains can be very dangerous when kept on all the time. Not only for the above reasons- but also they are more prone to rubbing the dog's neck raw and/or causing sores. While this may not have happened yet there's always a first time... in addition, what if your dog gets loose? The choke collar would definitely be a problem, then, if he got stuck on something, and usually there isn't and ID on them. So at the least a regular collar can be a cosmetic thing for ID purposes.

Also- I found that those pronged collars usually exacerbate whatever problem you are trying to correct. So far as I can tell their only draw is cosmetic. I, too, would suggest you find someone knowleadgable (like a rescue, perhaps, or a behaviorist) to show you how to use a halti-harness properly. There are 101 ways to use them improperly but they work wonders used appropriately (and usually some of the wrong ways, too, though that can get dangerous).

I know how tricky it is to get a dog to stop biting, though. I have yet to come across a sure way that works with even 1/2 the dogs. They bite for so many different reasons... I know at least for parrots it makes it worse to get mad at them (which of course only makes you more irritated and thus even less able to find a correct response... erg...) It's been years since I last had a dog that needed to be taught not to bite. The shelter I was volunteering at most recently was kill, and that was an immediate 'not adoptable' stamp.

 

[thalestral]

For collars that are on all the time, you can get safety collars that are built to break under stress like most cat collars. Much safer than regular collars :]

 

[DaCourt]

When my dog Sammi and I went through training, we used a choke collar. But it was not a chain link one. It was a soft rope type material. It released much easier than a chain link one, and it was soft around her neck. After training, I only used it for a few more weeks while we still worked on our technique. It never caused her any discomfort.

My dog is 12 years old now, and I only ever had to roll her onto her back 2 times. Once, she got jealous of my daughter when she was a baby and snapped at her. I took her by the collar and just stood over her. She rolled by herself onto her back. I told her very sternly NO. I only held her there a few seconds. She never did it again. The other time, my daughter was about 3 and was outside playing with her friend. A dog came down the street and was barking. Sammi went nuts as it got near my daughter. She got out of the house and charged the dog. She had never done anything like that before. I caught up to her and was able to grap her collar. I said NO in the same stern voice and almost simultaniously, we both made teh motions to get her to the ground. She knew she was wrong.

I am not sorry for either instance of showing dominance. She never cried. I didn't throw her to the ground. She is a great dog. I have never used the training chain since we finished training.

I just don't think you can throw everyone into the same category. There are extremes in all cases.

 

[Weatherlight]

Amy, you can train LLW to a 200 pound dog without ever using a leash (or other physical contact, or aversives). Same with barking at the door and food stealing. Stick with a harness he can't make "fall off"; there are all different kinds, with the figure 8 being the least secure. And what did you/his previous environment do to make him "a horrid puppy"?? How old was he when you got him? Eesh, his bite inhibition was horrible! With the idiot trainer's methods you're lucky he didn't bite your face off. But hey, I guess teaching helplessness has its uses if one is too ignorant and lazy to try anything humane and effective. I've used it myself before I knew better. And of course the subject can either bounce back to some degree or shut down forever.

I hope he knows how to swim.

Hooray4Ashley, it's true that a dog can catch and strangle on a buckle collar, but the risk goes way up with a choke. Like I said, (broken link removed) is a good safety collar and (broken link removed) has true stories of dog collar accidents.

Alusdra, it depends on what you mean by "a sure way." At the broadest, positive training is as sure a way as you can get. Specific techniques will vary based on the dog, bite inhibition, types of biting, triggers, motivators, the way biting was learned, etc etc. Biting starts as fear; when this is reinforced it can become a regular behavior for various obstacles/triggers.

thalestral, very good point. Although from what I've seen, many cat collars are for looks and people buy ones that aren't elastic or breakaway =|

DaCourt, if it didn't cause discomfort, why did you use it?

If she rolled over by herself, why hold her? And do you really enjoy intimidating people so they let you have your way out of fear? Please read The Culture Clash and get over your Disney dog mentality.

I really don't understand why you'd scare your dog for charging a strange, unrestrained (if I'm reading your post correctly), barking dog approaching your toddler. I guess next time she'll know to sit back and watch whatever happens.

No matter what extremes there are on any spectrum for anything, there are no exceptions to that sentient beings have feelings (by definition) and it causes them some degree of suffering to use any aversive on them (by definition). Those should be quite self evident. Of course, people's goals for their animals will vary from person to person--some people's goals include hurting, scaring, intimidating, threatening, etc their animals. Mine don't.

 

[crazywiggy]

Da Court - from the way you describe it you did not "roll" your dog, it sounds like she went down voluntarily. This is normal - laying down, rolling over etc are signs of submission and dogs use these behaviours to indicate they are not a threat and diffuse a situation. There is a massive difference between a dog choosing to display this form of communication, and physically forcing a dog to do so. (I have heard it likened to beating a child to make it say I love you).

[QUOTEIt never caused her any discomfort][/QUOTE]

The whole point of a training collar, chain or nylon, is to cause discomfort or pain. If it caused no discomfort you could have used a normal collar, or a harness, to the same effect.

I only ever had to roll her onto her back 2 times

I am, infact, forced to do this.

These comments frustrate me no end.... no one FORCES you to hurt your dog. Physical force is not the only - nor the most effective - way to train a dog. There are better, more effective, more humane methods.

Amy - I don't know if you realise this but puppies bite!!! That is normal! There are also many reasons WHY dogs and puppies bite - play biting, resource guarding, fear biting, because they are in pain etc. "Dominance" is only one possible cause, and many trainers do not even believe in it! If you want to stop teh biting and make the dog safe you need to consider why the dog bites and deal with the cause of the propblem. As Weatherlight said - using the "alpha roll" can result in the dog shutting down (learned helplessness) or becoming aggressive (fight or flight response). Hence this method is rarely effective, not the most humane, and potentially risky.

I just don't think you can throw everyone into the same category. There are extremes in all cases.

Now this I do agree with. Some people do use physical abuse and painful equipment because they enjoy bullying their dog. Some people do it because they know no better. Some do it because they feel they have to (e.g. because they have been falsely led to believe these methods are most effective). Some have just never questioned whether what they are doing is appropriate or humane. Some people don't even question the effectiveness - Amy has just given us a perfect example - her dog still pulls, steals food, barks uncontrollably etc.... Her training methods have obviously failed miserably yet she still uses them.

What is the same in all cases is that causing pain/discomfort/fear in the name of training is cruel and unecessary - regardless of your reasons for doing it.