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Thread: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

  1. #61
    Cavy Slave Lakota's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by seagirl96 View Post
    I have talked with one responsible breeder here in my town. She has a waiting list for her pups, breeds for temperament and health and has a three page interview form. A buyer must have a fenced yard of a certain minimum size, be willing for her to do a home visit, gets no papers until they can prove spaying or neutering has occurred and must agree that if they give up their dog, it will go back to her. She may sell one puppy a year for show that is not neutered or she may not sell any that year.

    Oh, and yes, she has a couple of rescue dogs and will rehome any golden that needs help. That's responsible.
    That's good. Hopefully such things will improve then. It's nice to remeber that there are people out there trying to improve these things.

    The vet tech school I go to is willing to spay/neuter shelter and rescue guinea pigs for free. We just ask to use them in the program for a few weeks so we can learn how to handle them, take blood samples from them, etc. We will neuter them and treat any other health problems they may have. Sadly there are still no takers! That's why we have to use ones from PetSmart for learning that aspect of pet health. We always have a long waiting list of people wanting to adopt those pigs too after we're finished with them. The two I'm baby-sitting for the month (we're on break) are already spoken for!

    I wonder if other vet schools are willing to do that. Guinea pig rescues might want to look into that if they need to neuter/spay their pigs.

  2. #62
    Cavy Slave Kealie78's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I have to agree in the case of small animals you can't be both.. or at least not in my opinion. Now, I do know of only one store in this area that is more of a rescue than a pet store. They take in unwanted piggies and try to find them a good home. They do not take "breeder" piggies. However, if there is an accidental love connection and someone finds themselves with a few baby piggies more than they can handle, this store will take the babies and try to find them homes. I have to brag on them for that. I am one of the people they call when they get surrendered piggies.

    But, again they aren't breeders. I just don't think it is possible to be a breeder/rescue.

  3. #63
    Cavy Champion, Previous Forum Moderator Char-x's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I agree, I've never really understood that logic =S

  4. #64
    Cavy Slave crc45169's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I guess I speak more on a dog level, but we wouldn't have the wonderful healthy breeds we do today if it weren't for dedicated breeders that do research, take time, money and whatever it takes to make their breed better. Why do we have so much Hip Dysplasia and other defects? Poor breeding, and that IS bad. So, I do believe rescueing and breeding can co exist only in very special situations. Anyone that wants a pet should rescue, but I don't disagree with buying from a truely reputable health/temperament concious breeder if you would like to show and better the breed. We have a serious dog and small pet overpopulation, but if no one ever took care of the good stock we still have, someday we'll not have any healthy, consistent, predictably good tempered animals that people take time to find.
    And petstores? I have a problem with many, but if a mom and pop store wants to open up to some animals that would go to a kill shelter otherwise? Isn't it better to sell or give away and inform the new owner than take the unknown chances involved in turning those needy animals away? Not every local no kill shelter is accepting pocket pets, so sometimes you do the best that you can do under the circumstances that you have. I wish Petsmart would start getting piggies from the shelters to adopt out instead of getting them from the breeders they do, but evidently they're not there yet.

    Just my opinion

  5. #65
    Cavy Slave I<3MyBabies's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I agree with the above post --

    I am, as many people know, a rattie mama AND a piggie mama.

    As we rat owners know far too well, rats have been inbred and inbred an inumerable amount of times. And now, we have cancer ridden, URI prone, short lived little creatures. Who maybe get one good year of life before the health problems kick in, if they are LUCKY.

    Is backyard, inexperienced, uncontrolled breeding wrong, irresponsible, and selfish? --Yes.

    Is breeding in itself wrong? --Absolutely not. And after much debate with myself I have reached that decision.

    There are breeders who, yes, by definition are ADDING more animals to the world's population. However, knowledgeable, responsible, credible breeders who are breeding to prolong lifespan and longevity. Get rid of Myco. Reduce tumor/cancer occurences. Strengthen immune system. These such breeders ARE good and are pursuing a noble task.

    I as a rattie mom would, in a heartbeat buy/adopt a baby from a breeder as mentioned above, in order to support their endeavor. I also have no qualms with rescuing. My 4 babies now are rescues.

    I believe this principle rings true with ALL animals. Much harm has been done by irresponsible and selfish people to so many species. Someone has to take the time and compassion and money to undo some of that. So, bashing all breeders is just plain out silly. You want to bash the people who are trying to cure your best friend? You want to bash the people who are trying to let your animals and your beloved pets live long, healthy, happy lives? Because, I thought that is what this forum was all about. Giving animals the best. And what better way to do that than giving them a life without surgery and tumor removal, without absesses and URI's? I truely can't think of one.

    I understand how terrible the evil is that lets millions of animals die in shelters. But that doesn't mean that because of human's mistakes, those who have the right idea about bettering the species should not get that chance. Fighting evil with good is the only right way. Maybe the good guys won't ever win, but they can sure as hell try.

    And yeah, a breeder CAN be breeding to better the species, while realizing that no matter what they do, there may always be more animals that are homeless or sick. So, why can't they do the same thing you do (rescue) without being called an "oxymoron"? Just because the world won't always balance out perfectly, doesn't mean the people who are trying to do good are wrong. Breeders who are trying to make it so that my rat babies can live longer than 2-3 years are wonderful people. I can't be more thankful. When I sat holding my dying little girl (Abby), I would have done anything to be able to let her live a longer life. And if she had been bred from a good healthy line of parents and siblings, perhaps she would have had that gift.

    All I know is, the world is not always as black and white as it appears. And sometimes, you have to be willing to have a little grey so that eventually, hopefully, it will all be white once again.

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  7. #66
    Administrator CavySpirit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    And after much debate with myself I have reached that decision.
    I find this comment absolutely hysterical. Thanks for sharing.

    Perhaps you should take the debate to the board and see if you still reach the same conclusion.

    In the guinea pig world, please offer up an example of a breeder who breeds for the 'betterment of the breed.' Clearly you have a well-formed idea about them. There are plenty of breeders around and tons of breeder websites. I really want ONE, just ONE specific example. Of breeders to shelters and rescues, the ratio must somewhere between 100 and 1000 to 1 (conservatively), based on where you live. And if, for some strange reason, you can't find an example of a breeder who breeds for the betterment of the breed, then please articulate all the qualities and requirements that you've determined make up that kind of breeder.

  8. #67
    Administrator CavySpirit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    Is breeding in itself wrong? --Absolutely not.
    Such certainty in your world of gray. I want YOU to be the one to push the needle full of poison into the belly of a gorgeous guinea pig (or dog or cat or rabbit or rat) because there just isn't a home for it right now and more keep coming in and the cages are full. I want YOU to have to keep doing that day after day. Probably after you've already taken in more than you support at home yourself. After your resources run dry and you can't save any more. YOU be the one to dump the dead, lifeless bodies into the trash cans in the back for the rendering trucks to come pick up week after week to boil down as ingredients for more cat and dog food.

    It is morally repugnant to me to support a system that encourages such travesties.

    Get real about your fantasy of breeding for health. There is not one single breeding requirement in the ACBA that has to do with health. It's all about looks.

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  10. #68
    Cavy Slave I<3MyBabies's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Teresa--

    Believe me, I do understand where you are coming from. I understand the heartache you go through just to keep your head above water with your wonderful rescue. I do. Probably, not to the extent of which you do. But, I do volunteer weekly and heavily participate with my local rescue and am the director's personal assistant. I know that your passion comes from pain and dispair, from watching animal after animal be lost. I am usually brought to tears when I decide to browse through Craigslist and see how many careless people there are out there.

    But, I really don't believe that you can say there is not one good breeder out there, at least. And if there is one, even one, should they be condemned? If there are no breeders, and the only animals we ever had in this world were ones that are bred over and over again from backyard breeders, all we will be left with eventuall, if anything, is a world willed with very sick animals.

    Ghandi said something like, "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way it treats its animals." And I do agree with that. While the disgusting manner by which our society disposes of animals and treats them as mere objects, is not acceptable. It is disgusting. But THAT is why the rare good JEMS out there, the good breeders are SO important. You feel betrayed maybe, or infuriated, heartbroken at the devestation humans have cause animals. So do I. But someone has to undo it, don't they? Is there no hope? Is there no possible hope for animals like rats who have been bred into a life of sickness? I think there is. And though that hope is but a small glimmer, if we who have such a passion can support those people, maybe it will grow. Maybe people will see the error of their ways. Yeah, Teresa I know its idealistic. I know its never going to happen. But, then again, you probably never thought you would be running an amazing rescue and saving animal's lives daily. I never thought I'd care.

    But I do.

    You don't think the though and the sight of seeing animals who no one wants tears my heart apart. You're so, so, so wrong. I think they deserve SO much better. And that is why I support those who are trying to give them that. I will still never buy from a petstore, and I will still rescue animals. In fact, Teresa it is YOU who inspired me to become a Vet tech and then open my OWN rescue. It is a dream and it will take way more work than I could imagine, I know. But I am going to do it. But, when I see my baby rats struggling for air, my rescued babies, I can only think, "What if these animals were not bred as clothes are mass manufactured? What if someone cared? What if someone put their hearts and souls into making sure these animals were born with strong hearts and immune systems? What if someone cared?" --And that's why I can say, though I know animals by the millions are dying, that a good responsible, rare breeder, should be praised.

    I think if you thought about it from a different light, you could see how GOOD breeders could change alot of things. Good breeders, with strict adoption policies like your own rescue. With strict health and care regulations. Only breeding when they know there genetics. Keeping detailed records of blood lines. Those things could SAVE lives in the future. And though that future may be far off, it could change things. Imagine in 50 or 100 years, where there existed a large group of this perhaps "idealistic" breeder. And, people realized they could get healthy, long living animals. So, instead of going to petstores, and impulsively buying an animal with terrible health, and maybe having it pregnant and allowing the inbreeding to continue -- imagine that they go to these breeders, sign contracts saying they will get their animal spayed/neutered and they will return the animal to the breeder if they decide they cannot keep it. Breeders who only breed when they have homes lined up.

    I know you think there aren't any out there like this, but there are. I belong to a rat forum, and I have gotten to know several wonderful ladies and gentlemen who have small ratteries and who do the exact things I have mentions. It IS possible. I know you may feel pessimistic towards it and anger towards the stupid ignorant, selfish people who have ruined our animals. But the good people still exist. And how else can we discourage the bad ones, than support the good?

    I think its possible. And I think it would change so many things. But if no one supports it, it will never happen. I will aways have ratties dying at 2 years old. That breaks my heart. So I chose to support something, that even though tiny, could spark change. Maybe someday, there will be more and more responsible breeders. And in turn, more responsible pet owners, and in turn -- Teresa, in turn less animals in shelters and rescues. Wouldn't that be wonderful? I do.

    I know you have strong convictions, but maybe you can take some time to think about the effects of good breeders on the world --your world, you rescue world. I think you'll find there could be less pain and suffering. And that's something I know you would desperately love to have.

    Just my humble opinion. Yeah, there are flaws. But, I chose to have hope. And because I know there are a few good ones out there, I have to do what I think is right.

    Heidi

    A.T. -- Just to add, I have not bought any animals from a breeder. I have, as of late, shared very much the same opinion as you, T, about breeders. But through getting to know some of these people through the rat forum I frequent, I have begun to try and figure out why it is I believe what I do. And, though I'm still struggling through this, I think there is good to be done.

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  12. #69
    Cavy Slave crc45169's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I think that was very well said. When Hurricane Katrina hit, I signed up with our local humane soc. group to go south if needed to help the animals. My mother in law asked why I wouldn't go to help the people. My response was that if no one loved animals, no one would help them. Everyone has their passion, everyone has their way of helping. If those dedicated to go beyond the conformation standards and pay close attention to health, and their first response to breeding would be "adopt" or "rescue", then maybe over time healthy animals from breeders and shelter animals would balance out, then a little later than that, healthy animals from hobby breeders would far outnumber those who had to live their life in a shelter or rescue.
    I adore rats, and speaking of, my last two rex dumbo girls were from a breeder. I could not find dumbo rexes anywhere and happened to stumble across two close to my town. I kept on and my friend kept another. Both girls died at a year from cancer. One was sudden, so we did a necropsy, but the other was slower, she eventually had to be put to sleep. It was heart breaking.
    One of my dogs came from a reputable breeder. And, though no one can guarantee that a dog won't end up with some sort of problem, my dog has a written guarantee against the most common genetic disorders her breed carries. I paid more for her, but I paid for what I got, a genetically sound dog that is what the breed is. I wanted something specific, so I researched and found her. All of my other dogs, cats and misc animals have been rescues. I also help many many animals find homes and work even harder on educating every new puppy owner or person thinking of breeding anything. I've convinced a few people to spay/neuter. I hope that in my lifetime, I do convince a few more.
    The whole point of this is that everyone needs to be genuinely dedicated to something good so that we can try to overcome and undo the bad. Each of us plays our own little part so that nothing is left out. Maybe I'm not very onesided on this issue, I think I can see both sides, but maybe we need people who very one sided about this to push the boat even further. It takes all kinds.

    Thanks

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    Cavy Slave crc45169's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    And I've euthanized and helped euthanize dogs and cats that didn't have homes. I am involved with my local humane societies and I understand what happens that the public doesn't have to see of deal with. I still believe in responsible dog breeding. I still think that some day we will see better standards more often when it comes to spaying/neutering/breeding. I want to be able to find a pet that I know has a much higher of being healthy if I so choose. I don't want to push my ideas on others, but rather help them understand and adopt them as their own.
    And the exotic animal vet I used to work with said that unfortunately, rats have very high likelihood of cancer. Maybe groups can start to get money to fund more research starting with surveys to see the biggest problems in their breed, then take the top couple on the list and see where they come from and how to prevent them. Wouldn't that be something?

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  16. #71
    Cavy Slave Calliso's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I agree with those that say we could do a lot of good if we worked together with the few good breeders. And yes I realize that they would be few and far inbetween. Yes I realize that most breeders are part of the problem and could never be part of the solution. But really I donlt think lumping the breeders that are actually breeding for the betterment of the species *better health I mean not looks* with the rest of em really is fair nor does it really help things. Really it was the bad backyard only care about looks not health type breeders that have helped cause such problems in the first place. Not breeders with standards such as I <3 my babies posts. but anyway I think she basically summed up more or less how I feel too.

    Of course before anyone assumes anything I will always rescue and always encourage rescuing over buying.

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    Administrator CavySpirit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    I know that your passion comes from pain and dispair, from watching animal after animal be lost.
    No, it doesn't. The moment I found out that guinea pigs and other small animals were in the shelters, that's all I needed. It's common sense. You don't need to live it, breath it to empathize and want to make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    that a good responsible, rare breeder, should be praised
    Like I said, find me one, show me one and then let's talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    I think if you thought about it from a different light, you could see how GOOD breeders could change alot of things.
    Oh please. Come on. Could of, would of, should of. Give me a break. Like I said, SHOW ME ONE. Don't you think that I've been down that road, thought those thoughts? Tried to make some early ideals actually work. What a joke. Show me ONE breeder in the ACBA who has championed even one of the rescue/animal welfare/breeding for 'health' issues. You can keep your head in the clouds and hope for happy days, or deal with the reality of today. We aren't going to get anywhere by pussy footing around the theoretical 'good' breeder. We need to deal with reality.

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  19. #73
    Cavy Slave I<3MyBabies's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Why do these breeders all have to come from the ACBA? Just out of curiosity. If they existed outside of it, would that make them inconsequential? Or could good be done by them?

    Just to clarify, I know you are specifically talking about cavies. I however, have been talking about the principal of breeding in general. Not just with cavies, but with all species.

    "No, it doesn't. The moment I found out that guinea pigs and other small animals were in the shelters, that's all I needed. It's common sense. You don't need to live it, breath it to empathize and want to make a difference."

    This is what I was saying --it obviously brings you sadness to see animals in shelters and animals being put down. It brings me the same sadness.

    And whats so wrong with having an ideal, having a dream? Tell me that. I know you are all hard and factual, T, but really think about what the world would be like if no one was willing to step out of the shell that they live in and look beyond what the world is now. Well, African Americans would still sit on the back of a bus. And a woman wouldn't be running for president.

    Dreams and ideals are what keeps us moving and growing. You had a dream to save lives --you started Cavy Spirit.

    I have a dream that breeders will one day breed for the sake of animal health and longevity. And, I WILL do some research and find a few good breeders. I already know of a few ratteries that I think very much have the right idea.

    There is always room for growth, T. Always.

  20. #74
    Cavy Slave daftscotslass's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    These people you have "gotten to know", have you seen their setups? Have you visited the situation in which their animals are kept?

    In addition, how would you feel if breeders bred for health and longevity but kept their animals in cramped conditions while dishing them out to pet stores and anyone who wants them? The fact is, this is what goes on in many cases.
    Last edited by daftscotslass; 02-07-08 at 01:34 am.

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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    Why do these breeders all have to come from the ACBA? Just out of curiosity. If they existed outside of it, would that make them inconsequential? Or could good be done by them?
    When you ask this kind of question, it tells me that you haven't been involved enough in the real world of breeding guinea pigs. You are in living in theory. And of course, I have hopes of that idyllic future when all breeders are responsible breeders, breeding for health and welfare. All pet care-takers, are well-informed and provide great and loving homes. We seem to just have very different opinions of how to get there--or somewhere remotely close to that.

    Of course not all breeders come from the ACBA, BUT it is the ACBA who sets the rules, the standards, what is bred, etc. It is the members of the ACBA who influence, frequently judge and sometimes run all the little cavy clubs and 4H clubs around the country. It is to their standards that the kids and backyard breeders subscribe. It is to their standards that their culls are dumped at the distributors, the pet stores, the auctions, the pet owners, etc.

    It's an organization that is morally bankrupt in its view of animals. That is the organization that runs the fun shows at which the 'responsible' breeder must attend. One lone breeder trying to do good outside of that organization is like (well, pick your metaphor, mine aren't polite).

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  23. #76
    Cavy Slave I<3MyBabies's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    You are totally right, Teresa. I haven't been around in the "Cavy World" for very long. So, I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

    Thank you for explaining the importance of the ACBA, I knew what it was just not to the extent that it held that much control.

    So, now my thinking is -- well, then something needs to be done to change the "boss" before we can ever expect to see change in the "workers", or however you want to phrase that, :-).

    So, perhaps in giving our support to the good, responsible breeders (if they do exist, which IMHO, they do--but I will keep doing research) we should be supporting those trying to change the standards and laws through organizations, such as the ACBA. Maybe, more effort needs to be put into trying to -- yeah, in some way support those few responsible breeders by supporting their, and our, ethics and standards.

    Maybe if the whole Cavy community pulls together, and we all take a stand for what we so strongly believe, we can make some changes--so that someday, the responsible breeders which you now call idyllic, will be standard according to the ACBA. Sure, it sounds impossible. And I'm sure that much has been done on this front. But, I suppose our work isn't done.

    I don't know Teresa, I just really, truly have this desire to see the way animals are "manufactured" to cease, and instead see people dedicate their lives, much like you have done, to save, to better, to make amends. And, I do think its possible. Our society wasn't ALWAYS at this point. There were days where, animals were kept on large open ranges, and people raised their own chickens for eggs and for meat. None of this factory farming. There was respect for the animal. Seems like America has totally lost sight of that. And, I want it to change.

    You know, we can all do our own part and try to "take a stand". I became a vegetarian, and work for a rescue. You started your own rescue. Many people on this forum have boycotted petshops and now rescue all of their pets. And that is beautiful. But its not enough. We have to do something as a community, a team, a group of individuals who know that something has gone terribly wrong and it needs to stop NOW. I'm totally not surprised anymore when I hear about people being murdered and the homeless freezing to death. You want to know why? Because our Nation can't even manage to care for its animals. How in the world are people supposed to care about other human beings, if they can't care about animals?

    I guess I'm just rambling. But, I understand where you are coming from now. I do think that we aren't doing enough. That if this is what is right --animals being bred for the sole purpose of medical betterment of the breed-- then we need to do something about it. And, something as a community. Write letters, go on petstore/breeder strikes, get the media involved, get our voices heard. Something that people can't ignore. Something.

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  25. #77
    Cavy Slave thalestral's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    How can there ever be a responsible guinea pig breeder when there is a 20% chance of a female guinea pig dying through being bred?

  26. #78
    Administrator CavySpirit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by I<3MyBabies View Post
    So, now my thinking is -- well, then something needs to be done to change the "boss" before we can ever expect to see change in the "workers", or however you want to phrase that, :-).

    So, perhaps in giving our support to the good, responsible breeders (if they do exist, which IMHO, they do--but I will keep doing research) we should be supporting those trying to change the standards and laws through organizations, such as the ACBA. Maybe, more effort needs to be put into trying to -- yeah, in some way support those few responsible breeders by supporting their, and our, ethics and standards.

    Maybe if the whole Cavy community pulls together, and we all take a stand for what we so strongly believe, we can make some changes--so that someday, the responsible breeders which you now call idyllic, will be standard according to the ACBA. Sure, it sounds impossible. And I'm sure that much has been done on this front. But, I suppose our work isn't done.
    You still need to get out of your kumbaya mode, stop promoting and espousing that of which you really don't know, and get your hands dirty. That's what it takes. The ONLY way to change the ACBA is from the inside. The only way to get on the inside is to become a breeder--trust me. The only way to become a breeder is to co-opt your current values. And it's not something you can do overnight and the likelihood of that approach is about nil. Don't forget or maybe you don't know, the REAL satisfaction that the vast majority of cavy enthusiasts enjoy by being a part of that organization is the social angle of being a member of that club. It's about acceptance, satisfaction, winning, points, leadership, ego, etc. It's a socially rewarding hobby to them. To others, especially the leaders, it's also a revenue-generating business and their animals are stock, pure and simple. So, what 'breeder' is going to 'infiltrate' that club and survive socially only to put themselves on the line as a radical? Come on. Also, have you ever attended a show? Do you know geographically where the large clusters of breeders live? I don't want to have to spell it out publicly.

    Soooooo, alternatively, the other approach is to jump into breeding, be enough of a leader, mover and shaker to start your own breeding organization and compete with the ACBA. BUT, the ACBA is a wholy-owned sub of the ARBA, which is firmly entrenched and more powerful still. Likelihood of anyone with a strong animal-welfare character going down that path? Nil.

  27. #79
    Cavy Slave I<3MyBabies's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    So, do you expect that nothing will ever change? Are you just accepting the fact that animals have been downgraded to stock and merchandise, and that nothing can change that? That the ACBA is how it is and there is no way that it can change?

    What is your solution to the problem? This is what I'm not catching onto.

    All I hear you saying is its too hard, its impossible, never going to happen. So, do we just accept that our society is sliding downward in regards to morality and animals? Give up?

    You say the only way to change anything is "get my hands dirty", but then you proceed to tell me that the only way I can impact and make a change will be ineffective anyways.

    So, what is YOUR solution?

  28. #80
    Cavy Slave Biscuit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by CavySpirit View Post
    enjoy by being a part of that organization is the social angle of being a member of that club. It's about acceptance, satisfaction, winning, points, leadership, ego, etc. It's a socially rewarding hobby to them.
    See, I get all that acceptance, winning, ego, leadership, points, satisfaction, and more from killing little kids in online computer games. Hurting a guinea pig just isn't necessary!

    So, what is YOUR solution?
    I'll get an ACBA member list and send them all a few different online games. There will be a burst of pigs on craigslist and in shelters, but after that - problem solved!!
    Last edited by Biscuit; 02-08-08 at 10:13 am. Reason: deeedeeelalalalaaaasplorrrffffff

  29. "Thank you, Biscuit, for this useful post," says:


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