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Thread: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

  1. #1
    Cavy Slave
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    Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    HI Guys,

    their is a post on our acs australian guinea pig forums where someone has posed the question why can't you do both? They've openly stated that they breed small animals ( not piggies ) and are a member of a club and have stated that the people in the club and the breeders are very passionate about both rescuing and breeding. This person believes you can do both.

    My initial post stated that I don't believe in breeding and rescuing going together once you've gone into rescue you see how the two just can't work together because your ethics and values change.

    I didn't elaborate more on the subject but i do have my own reasons as to why you can't call yourself both a having a very short experience in the breeding world I have a good basis to go on as to why the two simply don't go together...I was wondering if people here could reply with their thoughts/opinions on the subject as I'm sure it'll help bring about some clearer perspective on the subject.

    Jess

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    Cavy Star BabyGrl's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Well they basically cancel each other out making the rescuing pointless. Every animal that is bred takes away a home for an animal that is in a rescue. You can't say that you are saving the animals if you are condeming others. You might be removing them from a bad situation, but not rescuing. Let's say rescue 3 cavies and are fostering them but then breed a cavy and have 3 babies. Those three babies are adopted out (actually I guess a better word would be sold since they were never homeless) but the three you are fostering are not. Well now those three cavies are still homeless and could have been adopted out in place of the three babies. They just can't go hand in hand, the principles of both are on such opposite ends of the spectrum.

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    Cavy Champion, Previous Forum Moderator suzilovespiggie's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Well said BabyGrl. Plus if you breed and sell, those babies that are up for adoption are in a kill shelter and don't find a home will die. You just can't have it both ways. Some poor animal will always lose.

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    Cavy Champion, Previous Forum Moderator Ly&Pigs's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Breeding defeats the purpose of rescue. Rescuing is taking in unwanted guinea pigs and trying to find them a new home. Breeding is creating more guinea pigs that have a good chance at ending up unwanted.

    The only time breeding is ever necessary in my opinion is if a species is about to go extinct. Piggies are no way near going extinct. So instead of creating thousands upon thousands of pigs to further overpopulate the already overpopulated species why not just do rescue only and work on finding homes for the hundreds of thousands of guinea pigs that have already been created (mostly by irresponsible breeders/backyard breeders/piggie mills). Everytime a new pup comes into this world, if someone buys it, it takes away a home that a shelter/rescue pig could have had.

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    Administrator CavySpirit's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    In fact, I've been working (still working) on my Cafe Press store. But this section is done: http://www.cafepress.com/cavyspirit/1568272

    Try wearing one of these to the next show! Or think of a creative use for the bumper sticker! And don't forget, every purchase of one of my Cafe Press items helps support this site and the Cavy Spirit rescue.



    Sure breeders can rescue. Half of their brain is in the right place. That means there is hope for them. A little.

    This is a very good question, because I suppose I'll need to put a little summary of why this is a problem on each description of my cafe press items for those that don't see it.

    Here's my attempt at a condensed version. Rhetoric removed.

    Pets, including guinea pigs = Significantly Overpopulated

    Significantly Overpopulated = Death in Shelters
    Significantly Overpopulated = Death outdoors from being 'set free'
    Significantly Overpopulated = Death from neglect by poorly educated and poorly screened buyers.
    Significantly Overpopulated = Death by breeding from people who view animals as stock (acceptable losses in pursuit of a standard or look)
    Significantly Overpopulated = Death by breeding from backyard breeders who think breeding is fun, cool or educational
    Significantly Overpopulated = Death by breeding from accidents, either missexed pairs or stupidity

    Breeding Guinea Pigs = NO standards of practice, care, education, policies, etc. NONE. Only standards of looks.

    Being a 'show breeder' = NOTHING. You can be one of the worst caretakers of guinea pigs on the planet and the associations will support you and back you up.

    Breeding = INCREASED POPULATION
    Increased Population = More DEATH
    Increased Population = More pigs needing rescue

    Being a rescue = KNOWLEDGE and understanding of the pet overpopulation problem
    Being a rescue = Desire to change the pet overpopulation problem
    Being a rescue = Resources to care for rescues and advertise and promote them for rehoming
    Being a rescue = Commitment to finding good, qualified homes and being a source of education and training.

    OVERPOPULATION = NOT ENOUGH HOMES FOR THE EXISTING POPULATION

    And IF there are enough homes, but the problem is matching them up, then the Pet Trade Industry MODEL IS BROKEN.

    In either case, BREEDERS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

    Breeders who rescue = Pet stores who rescue = Basically, free stock

    Breeders who rescue and Pet stores who 'rescue' might have a few different policies, but on the whole, it's the same place, with the general look and feel and education and screening and OPTION of BUYING their primary stock.

    What really, really angers me to no end, is the bait and switch. A breeder who rescues advertises a rescue pig for adoption. Adopter comes in and goes home with a breeder pig--knowingly or unknowingly. It's a slap in the face to those who really do rescue and it's a moral sin in my opinion against lives of the rescued animals.

    I have PROOF of this happening from both ends of the spectrum. An example from a deluded rescuer who breeds (we have one in my neck of the woods) and an example from one of the most highly revered and vocal breeders who rescues in this country. And this particular breeder was sliding down the slippery slope of advertising her culls as rescues. No potential adopter walking through the door who WANTS to adopt a rescue pig will know the difference.

    THEN, there is the aspect of the BREEDER educating the ADOPTER. What a joke. Even if you make the very wrong assumption that all breeders are good breeders and know what the hell they are doing, AT BEST, regarding breeding and the pet overpopulation problem, they have to say, "DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!"

    So, as is typical, you get some family with kids in to ADOPT and they see the breeder setup and potentially the cute babies popcorning around and probably the display of ribbons from shows. What do you think is going to happen?

    Well, so much for a short summary. Obviously, it's one of my hot buttons. Breeders who rescue:
    Last edited by CavySpirit; 07-16-06 at 02:52 pm. Reason: spelling

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    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    OK so say they reascue one cavy, then they breed one and it has 3 babies.
    That will then proberly be another 3 un-loved, un-wanted cavies.
    So then they end up in a reascue.
    And the whole flipping cycle starts over and OVER again.
    You just CAN NOT be both in my opinion.
    If you are then you a basicly just a hipacrite!

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    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Hi Guys,

    gosh those replies are fantasytic! Thanks Teresa for that fantastic repy! I did an initial reply on the other forum that stated the following but yeah new i couldnt cover everything in depth. This is what i wrote:

    I don't agree with breeding any animal for the benefit of the human and not the animal their are sooo many homeless small animals around and ones that are fed as food and kept inhumanely the rat/mice situation is probably more of a joke than the homeless/neglected/mistreated piggy situation. over here.

    Just as food for thought and this is my number one reason i would never breed and rescue...imagine how many animals you could rescue and save if you didn't have your breeding stock and their offspring breeding their aswell? That's space for lives to be saved and also rehomed that's taken up by deliberate breeding and selling. mean if someone can come up with a good enough reason by all means please post it but yeah breed quality/colour and coat arn't good enough reasons in my eyes because they're all in the benefit of the person and not the animal...they're usually the reasons breeders of guinea pigs use telling everyone that pedigree breeds have less health problems, are bred to a \\\\\\" standard \\\\\\" and that they are breeding to improve a line or improve some aspect of the features of the guinea pig...when you're on rescue side of thinking you realise how pointless it all is I mean they're guinea pigs why should they have to conform to a standard that we human beings designed for them?. People that breed not to keep the offspring are simply doing it for their own benefit and not the animals. I've seen more health problems and genetically inbred problems in pedigree guinea pigs than i ever have in pets anyhow...

    By breeding you not only represent yourself but you represent other breeders and a good number of breeders don't care where their offspring go, some petshop offspring, animals that don't meet their breed \" standard \" are sold/discarded from the home some even euthanased as a result of not meeting certain criteria and being useless to the breeders breeding program, some breed mass numbers, and some also keep hteir \\\\\\" stock \\\\\\" in terrible and tiny living conditions. The word breeder is something i would never want to label myself as I don't want to be a part of the example others lead in the breeding world.

    I guess to me what it comes down to is that breeding/showing is for the benefit of the person and rescue/welfare is for the animals benefit. You can definitely give out good information and promote better care and awareness by being either a rescuer or a breeder but to me the two run under opposing systems of ethics ( i think thats the word i meant to use i couldnt think of the word i wanted so sed ethics ).

    I never thought of that before that breeders that resdcue could indeed pretend some of their own stock are rescue guinea pigs...gosh htats terrible!

    Jess

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    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    It's a grey area for me. In the dog, and horse world, if you breed, you must rescue or be involved in rescue in one way or another or you are not considered a reputable rescue.

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    Cavy Star BabyGrl's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie
    It's a grey area for me. In the dog, and horse world, if you breed, you must rescue or be involved in rescue in one way or another or you are not considered a reputable rescue.
    Do you mean a reputable breeder? Because I think you can be a reputable rescuer without breeding.

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    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Sadly in the UK, not sure about elsewhere, a lot of guinea pig breeders are setting themselves up as rescues too. It would be lovely to think that their intentions were entirely altruistic, but like Theresa...I simply don't believe this to be true.

    We have one local breeder come "rescuer" who used to (possibly still does) supply the local pet chain store with guinea pigs, also bragged to me (of all people) that another pet store had promised to take as many guineas of one breed, that they could supply!

    Isn't there a saying along the lines of ~ "You'll never be trusted not once it's been found...You run with the hare and you hunt with the hounds."

    I wouldn't trust or deal with any rescuer that breeds. I haven't got the time of day for these people. Simply a waste of space in the animal welfare world in my opinion

    Barbara

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    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGrl
    Do you mean a reputable breeder? Because I think you can be a reputable rescuer without breeding.
    Yes, I meant a reputable breeder. My bad!

  14. #12
    RaiderNation
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Pardon me for taking issue with what may seem trivial when, on the whole, the post was excellent, but I have an experience that is at odds with one of your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by CavySpirit
    Breeders who rescue = Pet stores who rescue = Basically, free stock
    Well now, free stock yes, but situations may vary. 2 of the pigs currently residing with me (I did have 3) were rescues left at a pet store. All three came home with the cages, food and water dishes, new bedding, and so on, for no cost along with good advice on care, training, and so on. The store in question lost money on it as they fed, groomed, and tended to all of these animals needs ensuring they were in good health and giving away everything that they came in with.

    Yes, they gained, long term, my business as I appreciated what they did and so maybe came out even or a bit ahead, but there you have it.

    Some people, and they might be few and far between (that I won't argue), actually care for the animals, ensuring that they are placed where they will go to good homes and the shop owners want them in good homes. They are out there, and they have my appreciation and gratitude.

    Those that release animals into the wild, shame on you.

    Those who could give a rip, shame on you.

    Those who breed irresponsibly, shame on you.

    Those who care about the long term health of the animals and what happens to the litters after they leave your home, I thank you.

    And those who feel so strongly on this, bringing it to our attention, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I might not agree with every point, but I cannot argue against the position - especially finding myself in agreement with it!

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    Cavy Champion, Previous Forum Moderator! VoodooJoint's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderNation
    The store in question lost money on it as they fed, groomed, and tended to all of these animals needs ensuring they were in good health and giving away everything that they came in with...
    Yes, they gained, long term, my business as I appreciated what they did and so maybe came out even or a bit ahead, but there you have it.
    In the end do you see the problem. They cause the problem by seling animals to anyone with money to plunk down on the counter. They then "act the hero" by taking back the GP they sold. They give the animal away, along with the cage it was returned in, etc. In return you take the animal they are unlimately responsible for,you buy food, bedding and other supplies not just that once but multiple times. You are rewarding them for causing that animal to be abandoned in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderNation
    Some people, and they might be few and far between (that I won't argue), actually care for the animals, ensuring that they are placed where they will go to good homes and the shop owners want them in good homes. They are out there, and they have my appreciation and gratitude.
    If they sell animals they are creating the problem they claim to care about. They are supplying mill breeders and BYB breeders and the concept that animals are disposable and replacable.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderNation
    Those that release animals into the wild, shame on you.

    Those who could give a rip, shame on you.

    Those who breed irresponsibly, shame on you.
    These are the people that petshops sell to and buy their stock from.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderNation
    Those who care about the long term health of the animals and what happens to the litters after they leave your home, I thank you.
    What about the animals dying in shelters and getting turned away from rescues because there is no more room? Why are people breeding while this is happening? Even if they care about the animals they breed they do not care about animals as a whole, suffering and dying.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderNation
    And those who feel so strongly on this, bringing it to our attention, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I might not agree with every point, but I cannot argue against the position - especially finding myself in agreement with it!
    We thank you for that. All we ask is an open mind and the ability to see the bigger picture.
    Everyone has the right to make an ass out of themselves. You can't let the world judge you too much.

    Maude from Harold and Maude

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    Cavy Slave chinchillasunde's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Depends on the type of animal. Not all animals are in shelters. There are those that are uncommon and therefore an overpopulation of that particular species does not exist..Those that breed these animals can't be lumped into the category with say someone who breeds dogs and cats. The dog/cat overpopulation problem is staggering.
    While some are totally against breeding of many common species, some will argue that there are responsible breeders. When those who do choose to breed, but do it as repsonsibly as possible also rescue, they are helping out the species as well. One wrong, to those that believe that any breeding of particular species is in fact a wrong, does not cross out a right,imho. Most people on here will have different opinions, to each their own.

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    Cavy Star Susan9608's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Quote Originally Posted by chinchillasunde View Post
    Depends on the type of animal. Not all animals are in shelters. There are those that are uncommon and therefore an overpopulation of that particular species does not exist..Those that breed these animals can't be lumped into the category with say someone who breeds dogs and cats. The dog/cat overpopulation problem is staggering.
    While some are totally against breeding of many common species, some will argue that there are responsible breeders. When those who do choose to breed, but do it as repsonsibly as possible also rescue, they are helping out the species as well. One wrong, to those that believe that any breeding of particular species is in fact a wrong, does not cross out a right,imho. Most people on here will have different opinions, to each their own.
    What kind of animals - those that we keep as pets - do you think need breeding in order to help out the species? If there are animals of a particular kind being sold in pet stores, I'm fairly certain I can find some that need new homes in that area as well.
    Dopetastic moderator S.

  18. #16
    Cavy Slave chinchillasunde's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Not necessarily to keep the species alive, but if people want them as pets some are not available everywhere.
    Chinchillas.
    Herps.
    Fish.
    Sugar Gliders..
    Basically, it depends on the area.

  19. #17
    Cavy Star Susan9608's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    If people keep breeding these animals unchecked, even if there is not an overpopulation of them *now* there certainly will be in the future.
    Dopetastic moderator S.

  20. #18
    Cavy Slave chinchillasunde's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    Not necessarily. Some rare species will stay rare, or at least rare in the US.

  21. #19
    Cavy Slave
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    I used to breed / show and rescue cavies and other small pets.

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    Cavy Caged zippysmom's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't breeders breed and rescue?

    It's because when they rescue, FABULOUS! When they breed, there is no point to rescue anymore. Breeding causes the deaths of many young pigs.
    It may also cause more piggies to end up in shelters.

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