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Sick My Duke is so sick and isn't getting better. - URI, ANOREXIA, ANTIBIOTIC INTOLERANCE?

AhhRex

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Hi,


I've been a lurker for years, but I haven't posted in a while.


I'm Alex. I'm 24. I'm very close to having a degree in chemical engineering. I have 6 guinea pigs, all but one were adopted. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about cavy care, as I own and have read many books on the subject. I've probably also read the guinea lynx website twice, as well as making my own notes from experience and observation. I'm certainly not as experienced as many of you. Let me tell you about my summer.


My first and oldest guinea pig, Duke, is my very favorite soul on the earth. Ever. Don't tell the others, but he is my favorite. When I adopted him, he was very much already full grown, at LEAST a year old. I've had him for 4 or so years, so he's arguably in his golden years now. For most of the time that I've had him, he has weighed close to 3 lbs (1.36 kg). He's a Peruvian and BIG and LONG. Never has he appeared overweight (unlike my 3 pound american). I keep my pigs on a diet of oxbow pellets, timothy hay, and various vegetables (mostly romaine, kale, spring mix, parsley, carrots, and peppers. I add fruits as I buy them for myself. They also get any safe raw produce left from dinner). As a C supplement, I give Oxbow Natural Science vitamin C supplement (I call them "cookies"). They provide 25 mg of C, additional to any they are getting from pellets and veggies. I based my diet plans mostly on guinea lynx and my own human nutritional knowledge. Duke has always been very healthy. Before this year he had only been to the vet for a checkup and for mild injuries from a fight with a cage-mate (he clearly won).


FIRST VET VISIT
I heard some SUBTLE sniffles from his cage. I'm always listening for sniffles because I lost a sweet piggy last November to a URI that I didn't catch fast enough. He had lost a little weight pretty slowly over the past year. I wasn't too alarmed, but he was down to about 2 lbs 10 oz. He was still social with me, still jumped into his slightly elevated kitchen, and still cuddly and talkative. I had looked for a more cavy savvy vet recently that was a little less expensive than the VCA he had previously visited. I found one that is relatively praised by exotic pet owners that is very close to where I live. I took him in for a visit. The vet said he thinks he has a URI, and prescribed 0.4 mL of Bactrim every 12 hours for two weeks. Multiple times at the visit, I was hounded about the amount of vitamin C I was giving. I told the vet techs that I aim for 50 mg daily (most requirements I find are about 25mg/kg daily. C is water soluable, so overdose isn't usually an issue. 25-50 is an easy daily dose). The first vet tech told me that the requirement is 500mg/kg daily. I (sort of impolitely) disagreed with her. She very impolitely disagreed with me. To be honest, it's not an issue of me being afraid to overdose, I know that isn't an issue. It was more that what she was saying was absolutely not what I have read for years. Also, she wasn't a vet. The vet came in, said he suggests 200 mg daily. This seemed more reasonable, but still a little unreasonably high. I asked "HOW?" He said to put it in their water. I fought him. I didn't do it. Since then I have been aiming for a dose of 50mg -100mg daily for all pigs, using ascorbic acid crystals (on veggies and in solution), chewables, and children's liquid C supplements in addition to the "cookies."


SECOND VET VISIT
I started to hear some sneezes from a couple of my other piggies. Alarmed, I made an appointment for them at the same time as Duke's two week followup appointment. I got more shit from the vet tech about how my C dose was too low. I was told not to google things (bitch). The vet said Duke is out of the woods, but the girls were sick. They were prescribed 0.4 and 0.6 mL of Bactrim every 12 hours for two weeks. Duke had lost a little weight. We were given WAY more Bactrim than we needed, so I gave the girls their doses, and medicated the rest of them EXCEPT DUKE for the two weeks, at 0.4 mL every 12 hours. I weighed every three days. The girls seemed to get better. Everyone but DUKE stayed at the same weight. Duke lost three ounces. He was lethargic and hiding in his cage, breathing was a little wet. He was so immobile that I had to cut a matte off of his chest and his feet were VERY red. He was MARKEDLY worse than he was when I first took him to the vet. He would eat veggies and some hay, but no pellets, and he drank water on his own.


THIRD VET VISIT
I had to work, so my boyfriend took Duke to the vet. This was Thursday June 23 (a little over one week ago). He was once again hounded about our vitamin C dose, (which is a STEADY >100mg for Duke now). The vet tech suggested adding it to yogurt. My boyfriend said "guinea pigs are very lactose intolerant." She disagreed, citing that treats (TRASH) are sold for guinea pigs with yogurt in them. We both lost faith in this veterinary office. Duke was given a vitamin C injection (I don't know the dose), an baytril injection (I don't know the dose), and a prescription for 0.5 mL of ciprofloxacin, every 12 hours for two weeks. That night, I disinfected ALL pig cages, surfaces, pigloos, water bottles, and bowls. I put up a coro wall between him and the cage next to him, effectively isolating him and whatever germs he has. We set a bottle of hand sanitizer next to his cage and used it before and after holding him. The vet made my boyfriend promise to put C in Duke's water. We tried it. I put enough in that the color changed, and I tasted it. The taste was off but not too offensive.


TURN FOR THE WORSE
One day after starting the cipro, he stopped eating anything but spring mix or parsley. I saw him drink out of the water bottle once, after I sort of moved it around and pushed on the valve. After about four days, he wouldn't eat or drink anything. This is a pig that would eat veggies until I stopped giving them to him. He was down to 2 lbs 4 oz from the 2lbs 10 oz that we started this mess with (and the 3+ lbs that he weighed all his life). I started hand feeding critical care. He would only eat a 1/2 tbsp powder mix. I gave him syringes of fresh water. I filled his water bottle with fresh water (no C) and offered him veggies and hay all day. The next day, I got pedialyte. Hand fed him in the morning, when I got home from work, and in the evening. The vet said to bring him in so he could look at his teeth. I was ONCE AGAIN hounded by the vet tech about a 500 mg dose of C. The vet looked at his teeth (and Duke violently disapproved, but he was so sad and weak that his resistance was futile). He said they actually look good, but one of them might be a teeny bit sharp. There was a little area in his mouth that might be sore, but the vet wasn't too alarmed. He didn't want to rush into anything and said that some tolerate the messing with their teeth, and some don't pull out of it. He prescribed 0.15 mL of metacam once a day for two weeks, hoping that would get him to eat. I was sent home and told to hand feed and give C. The vet tech at the front suggested yogurt again. I didn't bother arguing.


THE LAST FEW DAYS
I took down the wall between him and his neighbor, thinking he might perk up with a buddy near by. This weekend I fed him every two hours with either CC (mixed with pedialyte, clear Ensure, or no sugar added fruit juice) or baby food. He got plenty of additional syringes of pedialyte or water. I offered him different veggies, which he would accept enthusiastically, but then only take a bite (or no bites) and ignore it. We had traveled for the holiday, so I let him sit in the grass while we were packing up the car. I watched him nibble on grass and clover, but he didn't bite the blades off, and didn't swallow. He lays in the piles of hay I give him, or nuzzles them. I sense that he's clearly hungry and wants these things, but for some reason can't or won't eat them. Yesterday he was acting extra low. I fed him a few times, but I had to be more forceful than before. He just wanted to lay on me and lean his head on my hand. I weighed him and thankfully he hasn't lost any weight over the weekend.


Last night and this morning he had diarrhea. I got really sad. I'm expecting the worst. I snapped awake and checked on him multiple times last night.


So, what do you think? URI? SCURVY? Antibiotic intolerance? Old age? Shitty Vet? All?
Should I get a second opinion? Is my vitamin C dose really too low? Hand feeding suggestions? Anything?


I'm so worried about my baby. I'm at work and I can't think about anything else.


Tonight I'm going to take out his fleece and replace with towels so I can try to keep him clean and as comfortable as possible. This morning he had to have a butt bath.


Symptoms/medications (tl;dr)
Last month:
Symptoms: Barely noticeable sniffles, moderate weight loss over time.
Medications: 0.4 mL bactrim every 12 h.
Last week:
Symptoms: Severe weight loss, anorexia, lethargy, mild eye and nose discharge, occasional wet breathing, red sore feet
Medications: Vitamin C injection. Baytril Injection. 0.5 mL ciprofloxicin every 12 h.
This week:
Symptoms: Severe weight loss, anorexia, diarrhea, lethargy, very red sore feet, *maybe* some URI symptoms
Medications: 0.5 mL ciprofloxicin every 12 h. 0.15 mL metacam every 24 hours.


Sorry for the wordiness. Thank you so much for reading.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in the last few days he has started drinking water on his own. I got him a smaller bottle with a smaller spout (Something I would buy for my rat.)
 

bpatters

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I'm sorry your pig is so sick.

I think he has a poorly treated UTI -- Bactrim is not the first choice for that. It's much more effective on the anaerobic bacteria found in the intestinal tract. He might be in better shape if he'd had Baytril from the beginning. BTW, Baytril is not usually given by injection unless a pig that's at death's door needs it, because it can cause sterile abscesses.

The diarrhea is no doubt from the ciprofloxacin. Cipro is a good drug, but it does a real number on the digestive tract. He should have had a probiotic after every dose of antibiotic. He also MUST be hand fed. That he doesn't like it is immaterial. He's a two-pound pig, you're an adult human. See (broken link removed) on how to hand-feed.

Guinea pigs are wired to need food moving through their systems at all times. If it doesn't, then regardless of whatever else is wrong with them, they can develop painful, possibly fatal, stomach ulcers. The ONLY time you don't force-feed a non-eating pig is if it has an intestinal blockage.

You need a better vet. The argument about the vitamin C tells me they're way out of date, and then there's treating a URI in an adult pig with Bactrim. A healthy pig needs 35-50 mg. per day, and getting it through vegetables is perfectly sufficient. A sick pig needs more, but nothing like 200-500 mg. per day.

The sore feet are probably the least of his problems, but you don't want him to develop bumblefoot. Clean the feet with warm water, dry them thoroughly, and rub them with cold pressed virgin coconut oil. It has both antibacterial and antifungal properties, and is non-toxic if ingested.

Good luck, and keep us posted on how he's doing.
 

AhhRex

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Thank you, bpatters. This made me feel better. Don't worry, his not liking the hand feeding isn't stopping me. It was just concerning to me that it got harder.

Do you have a suggestion for probiotic? Do you usually use a healthy pig's pellet (I have a lot available) or do you use acidophilus tablets? I was actually going to hit the health food store on the way home.

And I'm going to start looking for a better vet now. They turned me off with every visit, and now with some affirmation that my C supplementation is fine, I'm even more turned off of them. I see you're in Houston, but if anyone knows a cavy savvy vet in the Philadelphia area, let me know. I'm going to contact the rescue that I'm familiar with and see if they have any suggestions.
 

AhhRex

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Side note: I feel like the vet and the vet techs are just focusing on my C dose instead of healing my damn pig.
 

bpatters

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Here's a link to the vets that GL has listed in Pennsylvania: https://www.guinealynx.info/records/viewtopic.php?t=272&sid=9fe7fa1e577acf0037ab1a76754d368b. UPenn has a veterinary school, and they should have someone with expert knowledge in exotics.

Healthy pig poops are fine. I usually use Bene-Bac, available from Amazon and from some pet stores. You can also use plain human acidophilus or kyodophilus.

About feeding. A guinea pig that's not eating at all needs 100+ cc of Critical Care or mushy pellet slurry for every kilogram it weighs, every day, spread into 6-8 feedings around the clock. You have to get at least that much in them to do any good. If the pig is eating, you can decrease the CC proportionately.
 

AhhRex

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UPDATE:
After this post, I decreased Duke's daily C dosage to something more reasonable (over 50mg, less than 100). I started giving acidophilus in pedialyte at least twice a day, and also added it to his critical care mixture. I toweled his cage, mostly to clean up after his messy poop, but also to help keep his dark red, swollen, obviously sore feet dry.

Duke was weighed in Wednesday at 1 lbs 15 oz, so I planned with my boyfriend to increase the number of feedings and the amount of food.
The diarrhea has been consistent and worrisome. Since this post, none of his poops have been even remotely solid or pellet shaped, but he HAS been pooping. I replaced his fleece with towels and change the towel under his pigloo about 3 times a day (mostly because poop, although it does appear that he is urinating). The rest are changed every night. I noticed that it's worst in the morning after his nightly does of cipro and in the later morning, after his morning dose of cipro. That makes sense. I think he's mostly just reacting badly to the antibiotic at this point.

He had his last dose of cipro yesterday morning. I listened to him, he doesn't seem to have any more obvious URI symptoms, so I felt good about it. This morning, I didn't see the same piles of diarrhea that I've been used to seeing. He also willingly and aggressively ate more this morning. I think this is partially because he might be feeling better, and partially because I blended up some parsley, romaine, and a strawberry that he seems to REALLY enjoy.

Three of his feet are very very very bad. They're very red with dark, blood red spots on them. He likes to put one of them up on my hand while I'm feeding... like he's taking the weight off. He's still taking 0.15 mL of metacam in the mornings. Is there a dosage where I can space it out over the day and make him more comfortable? I imagine it wears off after a few hours.
EDIT: I'm also putting coconut oil on his feet in the morning and at night.

I'm feeling hopeful. Things *might* be looking up. I'll keep updating.
Do you think I should take him back to the same vet now that he's off of the cipro or should I find a different one?
 

bpatters

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I'd look for another vet if it were me. That business about the vitamin C really is off the charts of excusable behavior. In fact, I just read an article this morning that said that high doses of vitamin C dispose a pig to osteoarthritis.
 

AhhRex

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Update:
We found blood in his urine.

I looked on Guinea Lynx and found a new vet. This one was MUCH more cavy savvy. Xrays, bloodwork, subcutaneous fluids. Found a bladder stone and some age related arthritis. She basically doubled his medicam dose, and now he's eating more on his own and acting MUCH happier. He isn't eating enough to stop the critical care, but he is eating his favorite veggies again.

We're waiting on a surgery estimate, although I (and the vet) want to see if I can get him to gain some weight before he's going to have to recover again. We have a follow up appt on Friday. Here are the x-rays, if anyone is curious. The bladder stone is obvious.

xrayedited1.jpgxrayedited2.jpg

Current Symptoms:
Low appetite, orange-y bloody urine, red/swollen feet. (NO MORE URI SYMPTOMS, although the vet said his lungs looked just a little cloudy.)

Current Medications:
0.3 mL Medicam every 12 hours
0.57 mL Bactrim every 12 hours (To prevent any infection associated with the bladder stone or the pressure sores on his feet)
Silver sulfadiazine cream on feet every 12 hours
 
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