General Not too good experience with Guinea Pig Vet yesterday.

[Morning_shadow]

Hello,
So I took my guinea pig Frappu to the Vet yesterday. He hadn't had a check up in some time. After his bladder stone surgery 2 years ago, I tried a new diet and it has been working well for the past 2 years since then. I had emailed the vet then, the new diet I tried, so that for her future patients she can suggest it to her other piggie patients with Bladder stone problems.

To make it short. Frappu hadn't seen the vet in over 2 years after his surgery. She has his chart.. yet the doctor was telling me how Guinea Pigs need Vitamin C.. and asked me what I fed him.. (even though I emailed her 2 years ago). I told her I feed him, Cucumber, Green Pepper, butternut squash, zucchini and boston lettuce. Twice a day and unlimited Timothy Hay. (I also give little fruit, but try to not often)
She tells me how I need to add Vitamin C..that they need it on their diet. In my head.. I've read how Vitamin C droplets in the water are not good for piggies..

Then she tells me if not drops, then to give Kale, Spinach and Parsley.. I reply.. "But Doctor, Frappu has had a history with Bladder stones, and these vegetables might be good with Vitamin C, but they also cause Bladder stones" My previous guinea pig Mocha passed away when I tried this latest diet with these vegetables included..

Then she says, "I don't know if what you feed now has it, but add the Vitamin C drops so that he doesn't get scurvy" She also suggested giving him Oxbow pellets.. Even though she knows from Mocha that I had also tried this other diet with the pellets (reduced pellets) and this also caused stones on him.

So my problem is.. Is it me over reacting...Or is it that this Vet doesn't really know about nutrition..specially when guinea pigs get stones, which is a common problem. I am grateful to have her, she did 3 surgeries in my previous piggy Mocha.. and 1 surgery on Frappu.. After the diets I've tried, with Mocha is how I reached the current diet that Frappu has. I am a bit concerned on her suggestions and her other Guinea Pig patients.

Aside from this, Frappu is perfectly fine and is 7 years old now. I looked online and Green Pepper has Vitamin C which I feed daily.. so I don't need to feed extra. If she knew of vegetables that had Vitamin C then she would be suggesting vegetables instead of drops or pellets..
In my opinion I don't believe guinea pigs need to eat the pellets from the stores.. I believe they are perfectly fine with eating a balanced diet along with timothy hay for their teeth. Just my opinion.

 

[bpatters]

Many vets recommend supplementing vitamin C for pigs, no matter what their diets. And it is particularly helpful for older pigs whose systems don't absorb nutrients as well as they did when they were younger. Vitamin C supplements have helped my senior pigs regain and maintain their weights when they were steadily losing small amounts.

There's nothing wrong with vitamin C drops as long as you're not adding them to the water bottles. Liquid vitamin C (the stuff dissolved in water) loses its potency very quickly when exposed to light. But if you have liquid drops which are stored in an opaque bottle, and either syringe them to the pigs, or sprinkle them on their food, there's nothing wrong with them.

I'm not at all surprised that a vet didn't remember a two-year-old email about your pig's diet. Most vet offices are like the front line of a war, with patients coming through steadily. And one vet can easily have a practice that includes two or three thousand animals.

The one thing I'd question is the recommendation for kale, parsley and spinach for a pig that's had bladder stones. Is this an exotic vet?

 

[Morning_shadow]

@bpatters. This is a vet office for all pets, but this one vet there does all pets including exotics which is why I went with her. She was also suggesting the liquid vitamin C to add in the water(sorry, that's what I mean about vit C drops) which is why to me it doesn't seem like she knows all that much about guinea pigs..

 

[bpatters]

I think I'd look for another vet. Recommending vitamin drops in the water bottle is a huge red flag.

 

[CavyChrissy]

@Morning_shadow I'm on the fence about your question. Part of me says, your vet should know what they're talking about and if they are giving bad advice about your pet, then seek a new one. It also drives me nuts when they have the chart in front of them, but then ask some obvious question that is clearly answered in the chart. But another part of me says, that WE must ALWAYS take the final responsibility for our pets. I guess I view my vet as someone who gives me educated (hopefully) advice, but in the end it's up to me to decide what's best for my pigs. @bpatters makes a good point that vets see many many animals and probably not remember your specifics. So I guess my thought is, find a new vet that you feel gives quality, educated advice and then use that advice to decide what YOU think is best for your pigs.

 

[Paula]

I think it's slightly absurd that you'd expect a vet you haven't seen in two years to remember an email from two years ago, moreso if you'd expect her to remember what the email actually said about diet. There's nothing wrong with her asking again, a lot of things could have changed in two years even if she possesses superhuman memory capability and even remembered you'd emailed in the first place.

Furthermore, a lot of vets don't know about nutrition - dog, cat, horse, exotic, whatever. It's your responsibility to research and feed your pet what you think is best, not theirs. You certainly don't have to agree with or follow everything they say. The suggestion for drops seems to have followed the suggestion for high-in-Vitamin C veggies that you declined, so it would seem to me that she's just trying to make sure the pig gets enough C to begin with, not suggesting that drops should be the first or only choice. Drops in the water would be preferable to nothing at all and the pig ending up with a deficiency.

If she's an otherwise competent vet, and it would seem she is if she removed the stone two years ago, I'd not let these seemingly petty matters keep you from seeking her help and treatment in future medical matters unless you happen to live in an area that's rich with experienced guinea pig vets and you can easily find another you like better.

 

[Morning_shadow]

Thank you all for your comments! I guess yes, in the end it is up to me to see the best diet for the piggies. lol

 

[lizpow]

Hello,
So I took my guinea pig Frappu to the Vet yesterday. He hadn't had a check up in some time. After his bladder stone surgery 2 years ago, I tried a new diet and it has been working well for the past 2 years since then. I had emailed the vet then, the new diet I tried, so that for her future patients she can suggest it to her other piggie patients with Bladder stone problems.

To make it short. Frappu hadn't seen the vet in over 2 years after his surgery. She has his chart.. yet the doctor was telling me how Guinea Pigs need Vitamin C.. and asked me what I fed him.. (even though I emailed her 2 years ago). I told her I feed him, Cucumber, Green Pepper, butternut squash, zucchini and boston lettuce. Twice a day and unlimited Timothy Hay. (I also give little fruit, but try to not often)
She tells me how I need to add Vitamin C..that they need it on their diet. In my head.. I've read how Vitamin C droplets in the water are not good for piggies..

Then she tells me if not drops, then to give Kale, Spinach and Parsley.. I reply.. "But Doctor, Frappu has had a history with Bladder stones, and these vegetables might be good with Vitamin C, but they also cause Bladder stones" My previous guinea pig Mocha passed away when I tried this latest diet with these vegetables included..

Then she says, "I don't know if what you feed now has it, but add the Vitamin C drops so that he doesn't get scurvy" She also suggested giving him Oxbow pellets.. Even though she knows from Mocha that I had also tried this other diet with the pellets (reduced pellets) and this also caused stones on him.

So my problem is.. Is it me over reacting...Or is it that this Vet doesn't really know about nutrition..specially when guinea pigs get stones, which is a common problem. I am grateful to have her, she did 3 surgeries in my previous piggy Mocha.. and 1 surgery on Frappu.. After the diets I've tried, with Mocha is how I reached the current diet that Frappu has. I am a bit concerned on her suggestions and her other Guinea Pig patients.

Aside from this, Frappu is perfectly fine and is 7 years old now. I looked online and Green Pepper has Vitamin C which I feed daily.. so I don't need to feed extra. If she knew of vegetables that had Vitamin C then she would be suggesting vegetables instead of drops or pellets..
In my opinion I don't believe guinea pigs need to eat the pellets from the stores.. I believe they are perfectly fine with eating a balanced diet along with timothy hay for their teeth. Just my opinion.

Bladder stones are from too much calcium. vitamin c is very important and calcium should be as limited as possible. Yes drops in water are not good as they degrade quickly and need changing a lot and can make the piggy think that the water is bad and not drink as much but they still need vitamin c weather its (ideally) from veg or if you need to supplement a little with pellets. I think that while the water drop part is out dated information she was right about vitamin c. Oxbow pellets shouldn't have caused bladder stones especially because it has the lowest calcium and if you give only 1/8 a cup a day it definitely should not be too much calcium. Your vet was right on except with putting the drops in the water and with the kale spinach and parsley as while they have a fair amount of vitamin c they are very high in calcium. I definitely wouldn't call the drops a red flag because while putting them in the water isn't a good idea you obliviously know to put them on something else or get vit c pellets. piggies can't really get too much vit c but there is always the risk of too little. so while her method was possibly off the message was right in that you should consider supplementing their vit c. I personally wish there was a website
i could put in the proportions of what I was feeding and it would tell me how much calcium, vit c, fiber, ect they were getting and what is ideal.

 

[lizpow]

but I get the struggle too.lol I know my vet is a great small animal vet but her website is outdated. it says that you should have a wheel. granted it hasn't been updated since the early 2000's but they are very busy there.

 

[LittleSqueakers]

@lizpow: Actually, Oxbow pellets are not recommended for pigs that have a history of stones; they do have a calcium content that is considered too high for stone-pigs, although many non stone-pigs can eat them without ever developing problems. But the other problem with Oxbow pellets as well as almost all other commercial pellet diets is that the calcium source comes from limestone, i.e. it is pure calcium carbonate, which is the most common type of bladder stone found in guinea pigs. Feeding Oxbow to a stone-pig may just be providing the raw ingredients to form bladder stones. The only type of pellet diet that I have ever heard of that is recommended for stone-pigs is the Timothy Choice from KMS Hayloft, which uses a different calcium source that is not limestone. Still, some pigs that are super-sensitive will form stones on it, too. Some pigs just have to be taken off pellets altogether to have the best chance of avoiding stones. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees.
Guinea pigs can get too much vitamin C, but it's very rare and only happens when they are supplemented C at very high doses for a long time. Their bodies adjust to these higher levels of C, and when the dosage is decreased to an otherwise normal amount, they may actually develop scurvy. But again, this doesn't happen naturally and the far more frequent risk, as you said, is not getting enough C.

 

[Cavies4EverEver]

Guinea pigs can get too much vitamin C, but it's very rare and only happens when they are supplemented C at very high doses for a long time. Their bodies adjust to these higher levels of C, and when the dosage is decreased to an otherwise normal amount, they may actually develop scurvy. But again, this doesn't happen naturally and the far more frequent risk, as you said, is not getting enough C.

If this sounds confrontational, that is not my intention..

My pigs (3) have all had times to where they have received too much vintamin c (edit) (when their pee has white powder substance) It's easy for them to get. Also I cannot find anything online that says to stay away from oxbow if your piggy has stones. Where did you get this information? I would like to be educated in case this happens to my pig babies

 

[LittleSqueakers]

The white powder substance in urine is not from vitamin C, it's from calcium. And you're right, white urine deposits are common in pigs and aren't necessarily indicative of stones. I don't think that you can accidentally overdose a pig with vit C just by feeding them veggies, but keep in mind that a lot of high Vit C veggies (such as kale, spinach, and parsley for example) are also high-calcium veggies.
I actually found out about the Oxbow thing right here on the forum! I can't remember exactly which thread(s) I read, but I'm sure I found it stated in more than one. Maybe try going to either the veterinary/medical or the diet/nutrition sub-forums and type in keywords for "Oxbow pellets bladder stones"? I'm sure something relevant will come up in the first few threads. I'm actually about to start a little home-experiment with my pig to find out if taking away the Oxbow pellets he's eaten his whole life will have an effect on urinary calcium deposits. Everything I've read so far in this forum suggests that I should see a difference.

 

[Cavies4EverEver]

The white powder substance in urine is not from vitamin C, it's from calcium. And you're right, white urine deposits are common in pigs and aren't necessarily indicative of stones. I don't think that you can accidentally overdose a pig with vit C just by feeding them veggies, but keep in mind that a lot of high Vit C veggies (such as kale, spinach, and parsley for example) are also high-calcium veggies.
I actually found out about the Oxbow thing right here on the forum! I can't remember exactly which thread(s) I read, but I'm sure I found it stated in more than one. Maybe try going to either the veterinary/medical or the diet/nutrition sub-forums and type in keywords for "Oxbow pellets bladder stones"? I'm sure something relevant will come up in the first few threads. I'm actually about to start a little home-experiment with my pig to find out if taking away the Oxbow pellets he's eaten his whole life will have an effect on urinary calcium deposits. Everything I've read so far in this forum suggests that I should see a difference.

This helps a lot! I do feed my piggies parsley and I feed them spinach (not all the time) it seems that the times I have they get the white powdery substance.. Thank you

 

[LittleSqueakers]

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help today.

 

[lizpow]

@lizpow: Actually, Oxbow pellets are not recommended for pigs that have a history of stones; they do have a calcium content that is considered too high for stone-pigs, although many non stone-pigs can eat them without ever developing problems. But the other problem with Oxbow pellets as well as almost all other commercial pellet diets is that the calcium source comes from limestone, i.e. it is pure calcium carbonate, which is the most common type of bladder stone found in guinea pigs. Feeding Oxbow to a stone-pig may just be providing the raw ingredients to form bladder stones. The only type of pellet diet that I have ever heard of that is recommended for stone-pigs is the Timothy Choice from KMS Hayloft, which uses a different calcium source that is not limestone. Still, some pigs that are super-sensitive will form stones on it, too. Some pigs just have to be taken off pellets altogether to have the best chance of avoiding stones. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees.
Guinea pigs can get too much vitamin C, but it's very rare and only happens when they are supplemented C at very high doses for a long time. Their bodies adjust to these higher levels of C, and when the dosage is decreased to an otherwise normal amount, they may actually develop scurvy. But again, this doesn't happen naturally and the far more frequent risk, as you said, is not getting enough C.

Good to know about the oxbow having calcium carbonate. Ill have to find where I read it was better and cross reference any other information I got from there again. I apologize as I was jumping around a lot in that reply and didn't specify that I meant they almost never (I shouldn't have said can't really cause there is never a never) get too much with the diet that was explained at the beginning of this thread. lesson learned I will word things more carefully. thanx lol

 

[CavyChrissy]

@lizpow: Actually, Oxbow pellets are not recommended for pigs that have a history of stones; they do have a calcium content that is considered too high for stone-pigs, although many non stone-pigs can eat them without ever developing problems. But the other problem with Oxbow pellets as well as almost all other commercial pellet diets is that the calcium source comes from limestone, i.e. it is pure calcium carbonate, which is the most common type of bladder stone found in guinea pigs. C.

Thanks @LittleSqueakers I didn't know that the calcium was coming from different sources. I remember reading on here that the KMS Timothy pellets are best for the stone-prone (like my Snickers), but didn't know the reason why. Thanks!

 

[pigger123]

@spy9doc, what's the difference between Oxbow Essentials and Oxbow Cavy Cuisine? I always thought they were the same thing.

 

[pigger123]

Where are you getting the different nutrition information for the Essentials versus Cavy Cuisine? The only thing I can find is this (the image), which has both Essentials and Cavy Cuisine written on the package. The Oxbow Essentials seems to be a line of products which includes Cavy Cuisine adult guinea pig food and Cavy Performance young guinea pig food, as well as food for other animals.