I am not against breeders. (Rant)

[spudsthepiget]

I do not like the argument that they're trying to "improve" the breed. There are so many animals with health problems because of this. This is what I'm talking about: https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/

I have issues with people that would knowingly breed these animals with lifelong health problems because they're "cute" or because it's their "namesake". It's not just dogs, either; Scottish flop cats live their almost their whole lives in pain because the of the flop in their ears. Micro pigs are purposely underfed and malnourished when they're bred so people will say "how cute!" Roan and Dalmation pigs are bred because they're cute, but produce lethal whites with so many health problems.

 

[daisy1cow]

I don't know if I buy the 1 in 5 pigs die. But regardless, Im sure that death may happen in any breed or human for that matter. Its just a fact of life, animal or human.

I get it that pet stores are terrible, but we should work on regulations, laws and such because if we take those away, we push breeding to backyard breeders who are not regulated. Breeding is going to happen, wouldn't it be better to keep it in stores where there could be regulations than left to amateurs who are just doing it for the buck and aren't regulated and terrible things will happen because there is nothing in place?

Have you seen all the rabbits and dogs on other sites for sale lately???? Tons and tons and just by backyard breeders who have no idea what they are doing, they probably have females dying all the time, but if it was a responsible, regulated breeder who took care with proper food, housing, vet care, things would be different.

Just saying.......

 

[pinky]

I don't know if I buy the 1 in 5 pigs die. But regardless, Im sure that death may happen in any breed or human for that matter. Its just a fact of life, animal or human.

I get it that pet stores are terrible, but we should work on regulations, laws and such because if we take those away, we push breeding to backyard breeders who are not regulated. Breeding is going to happen, wouldn't it be better to keep it in stores where there could be regulations than left to amateurs who are just doing it for the buck and aren't regulated and terrible things will happen because there is nothing in place?

Have you seen all the rabbits and dogs on other sites for sale lately???? Tons and tons and just by backyard breeders who have no idea what they are doing, they probably have females dying all the time, but if it was a responsible, regulated breeder who took care with proper food, housing, vet care, things would be different.

Just saying.......

You can look up the regulations that the Department of Agriculture in your state has on it's books that covers breeding, pet stores, rescues, etc. It varies by state. Even if they have specific laws, it takes inspectors to investigate complaints which is costly. Most of the time, they'll only step in where there's a large scale rescue. They won't get involved with small scale backyard breeders, especially when it's animals that are used as reptile feeders.

 

[bpatters]

The big pet stores are never going to deal with backyard breeders. The people who contract with those stores to supply pets have to guarantee them thousands of pets at a time. Getting that many from small breeders would be a bookkeeping/transportation/storage nightmare, and would be unprofitable besides.

Many, if not most, of the guinea pigs available for sale in places like Petco and PetSmart are imported from other countries, so our laws would have no effect whatsoever.

 

[stray hares]

I'm not going to repeat anything people have already said. There were some very good points raised, and I think it's important to have these kinds of discussions sometimes just because... ideas! they are good to discuss! That said, I'll just mention I'm firmly in the non-breeding camp, mainly for animal rights reasons, but also because I am geneticist and I know very well how little we know about many things related to genes and gene function. It is slightly terrifying.

The main point of my replying was to say this about talking about anything online or in real life: you don't have to get people to agree with you. You can discuss ideas online and not have to win at the internet doing so. It's an easy trap to fall into, but, remember, the best discussions are the ones where people remain mature and awesome, and where you do not have to get people to admit that you are right (and they wrong) to have a terrific conversation about something. I know that when you're dealing with something that affects the health and well-being of non-human animals people get very passionate on both sides, but calm, mature discussion wins out more than anything. And who doesn't love an informative exchange of ideas?

Please carry on.

(P.S. I believe the 1/5 quote is attributed to Tracy Iverson. He is easy to find on the internet and social media. Perhaps someone could politely message him to clear up where he obtained the statistic from? No swamping him with messages though.)

 

[Princess_Piggie]

I agree that discussion on any subject between two strongly opposing sides can make for not only intelligent debate, but also shed light on some things that the people participating may not have knowledge of.

However, it seems to me that the manner the subject was addressed in on this particular thread was not for intelligent debate, it was for, as clearly stated, a rant. A rant implies anger, frustration, etc. And more to the point, OP tries to make their point by insulting anything they disagree with. They dislike the idea of adopting from a shelter, because they're "dirty" and "lie about the animals health and background".

Before anyone makes a "those in glass houses" comment, yes, the majority of us (including me) insult breeders, mills and pet stores to the highest degree, but that's because it's widely known that the things we insult like their treatment of their animals, the vet care they provide, the poor living conditions, are hard cold facts that canbe generalised because those things aren't confined to one particular place, it's widespread across the vast majority of those sorts of places.

 

[stray hares]

Oh yes, definitely, @Princess_Piggie. It was a rant hence the you don't have to win at the internet comment. However, good things can come from muddy beginnings. I think most people here are capable of turning something negative into a useful discussion. People power!

 

[daisy1cow]

Just out of curiosity.

Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

Mine survived............... 0/5

 

[pigger123]

Just out of curiosity.

Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

Mine survived............... 0/5

I did a browse on the pregnancy section of the forum, and the majority of threads involving pregnant pigs ended happily with a healthy mother and pups. There were definitely quite a few that had stillborns or pups with problems (like lethals), but overall I don't think it's generally a 1/5 mortality rate. My pregnant pig had no problems, and all 4 pups were healthy.

 

[CavyHouse]

We've probably had 40 or 50 litters born at our rescue in the past 10 years.
We did lose one mom but she never even made it to our rescue. She gave birth to 5 stillborn pups at a shelter and then the shelter asked me to rescue her. I picked her up, took one look at her and took her straight to the vet, where she later passed away. It was a while ago but I seem to remember it being pregnancy toxemia. There were a couple moms that we could have lost if we weren't willing to have a $800 emergency Cesarean done on one and took another one to a vet in the middle of our Christmas dinner due to a pup being stuck in the birth canal. She made it but the pup didn't. We've had to assist other moms too.
Unfortunately, we have had several stillborn pups. I'm beginning to suspect that some stillborns are due to litters coming too quickly or to inexperienced moms who don't clean the sac off quick enough.

 

[daisy1cow]

So one mom in 40 or 50, that isnt 1 in 5

The stat was for sows that died, not babies. I just want to show that I think that 1 in 5 Sowes dying isnt correct. Even if you didn't save the other moms, that would be 3 in 40 or 50.

I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I just want to see that it isn't quite right
@CavyHouse Thank you for the work that you do. Stillborn pups are probably more common than sows passing. My baby that was stillborn was HUGE for whatever reason, the other baby was 3 oz.

 

[6GPS7]

Just out of curiosity.

Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

Mine survived............... 0/5

This site is not a representative sample of all sows and guinea pigs. Not only is it not enough data, it's biased data, because the people who come here looking for advice may not update if their pig dies. Therefore, any "data" gathered here is statistically useless. You cannot gather any conclusions whatsoever based on a flawed sample.

 

[6GPS7]

So one mom in 40 or 50, that isnt 1 in 5

The stat was for sows that died, not babies. I just want to show that I think that 1 in 5 Sowes dying isnt correct. Even if you didn't save the other moms, that would be 3 in 40 or 50.

I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I just want to see that it isn't quite right
@CavyHouse Thank you for the work that you do. Stillborn pups are probably more common than sows passing. My baby that was stillborn was HUGE for whatever reason, the other baby was 3 oz.

As I said above, you did not draw these conclusions based on an appropriate or unbiased sample size, so there is no way to draw the conclusion from the data in this thread or this site that the 1/5 statistic "isn't quite right."

Further, let's say that the 1/5 statistic isn't right. Let's say it's 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100. That's better. But you know, that 1 sow still dies. That's still hundreds or thousands of sows dying needless deaths for completely unnecessary reasons. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of pigs available throughout the world. There is no reason whatsoever for intentional breeding, and there is no reason whatsoever for innocent animals to die because someone thinks they are a "responsible breeder."

 

[CavyHouse]

While we may not have lost any moms, I'm not saying that I'm in favor of breeding. While we've been lucky in our area to keep up with most of the piggies needing rescue, we're constantly at a mad scramble to make sure they all get homes. It's exhausting, time consuming, expensive and emotionally draining. I'm hoping to take a break but doing so means not all piggies may make their way out of shelters.

I think it's really sad that in order for many guinea pigs, dogs and cats etc to find responsible, loving, forever homes that they first have to go through less-than-optimal conditions at a breeder followed by being purchased by irresponsible homes before they can be rescued and make their way to great homes. (I realize many responsible, loving owners run into situations they couldn't anticipate and need to give their critters up. I'm not talking about them). So we have a system with irresponsible breeders and pets stores putting pets in the hands of homes who aren't equipped to care for them. They may either be surrendered to a shelter, turned loose to fend for themselves, thrown in the trash (it happens to often) or hopefully re-homed to a better home. if they are lucky enough to make it to a shelter or rescue, then hopefully they eventually make it to great homes. What's amazing is how great some of these piggies (and dogs, cats etc) are in spite of what they've had to go through.

I'm getting off topic though.

As far as "dirty" shelters, I've been really impressed with the cleanliness of the shelters I deal with. Unfortunately, many won't do too much to help guinea pigs needing medical care, but at least healthy guinea pigs coming into shelters do fairly well around here.

 

[daisy1cow]

@6pgs7 but another point is that not just sows, its a fact if life, humans die during child birth as well so why limit it to just gpigs? Happens everday. Your estimate of hundreds of thousands is probably a bit off but i realize you want to make a dramatic point. Innocent animals die every day, human women die during birth. Its just a fact, it happens, circle of life. Your logic goes for humans as well.

 

[pinky]

@6pgs7 but another point is that not just sows, its a fact if life, humans die during child birth as well so why limit it to just gpigs? Happens everday. Your estimate of hundreds of thousands is probably a bit off but i realize you want to make a dramatic point. Innocent animals die every day, human women die during birth. Its just a fact, it happens, circle of life. Your logic goes for humans as well.

The difference is that humans make choices regarding their own reproduction that can impact their health. Breeders make those decisions for animals and make a profit on it.

 

[daisy1cow]

Good gosh. My point is it is a fact of life, it happens but you all just dont want to see another side. Im not saying its right, but there are good breeders and bad breeders, good people, bad people, animals, humans die during birth. Im sure theres rape victims who have died giving birth to that child. They didnt make that choice either. Im sorry you only see one side on something. That doesnt help with change. If we all fought together to change things and make it better but you want it to just stop and it never will and not advocating hurts the cause. this site has a great opportunity to change things, give out correct information . Theres great possibility here but if you shut it down conditions will be considerably worse, no regulations and then things are horribly bad

 

[6GPS7]

@6pgs7 but another point is that not just sows, its a fact if life, humans die during child birth as well so why limit it to just gpigs? Happens everday. Your estimate of hundreds of thousands is probably a bit off but i realize you want to make a dramatic point. Innocent animals die every day, human women die during birth. Its just a fact, it happens, circle of life. Your logic goes for humans as well.

Ok, I'll concede I was probably a bit off. Sounds like you're conceding that this site is not a representative sample. Anyway, I put my state into Petfinder (just one site that has available pigs) and got 1,048 guinea pigs available. So just using that number, and assuming only half are female (a big assumption on my part, admittedly, but let's go with it), if the 1/5 stat is correct, that's 109 pigs that die because of breeding. If it's the more ideal 10% I used above, that's 52 that die. That's a lot of pigs, IMO. And for what? So the pigs that the breeders produce can just add to the thousands of other available pigs.

The point is, breeding is not necessary. We do not need more pigs. And since we do not need more, any pig that dies as a result of breeding is a useless and unnecessary death.

I have no idea what human women dying during childbirth has to do with this. There are several important physiological and ethical differences between human reproduction and the intentional breeding of animals, that I really don't even want to get into. I'm not trying to sound snarky (really, truly), but I see no connection whatsoever.

 

[6GPS7]

Good gosh. My point is it is a fact of life, it happens but you all just dont want to see another side. Im not saying its right, but there are good breeders and bad breeders, good people, bad people, animals, humans die during birth. Im sure theres rape victims who have died giving birth to that child. They didnt make that choice either. Im sorry you only see one side on something. That doesnt help with change. If we all fought together to change things and make it better but you want it to just stop and it never will and not advocating hurts the cause. this site has a great opportunity to change things, give out correct information . Theres great possibility here but if you shut it down conditions will be considerably worse, no regulations and then things are horribly bad

I really am willing to see another side. What would be the ways that the intentional breeding of animals could be made better?

 

[Princess_Piggie]

The difference is that humans make choices regarding their own reproduction that can impact their health. Breeders make those decisions for animals and make a profit on it.

I totally agree. Further more, humans almost always give birth with medical personnel present, or can call an ambulance and have help almost straight away when something goes wrong. Guinea pigs don't have that luxury. We can't just up and take them to the vet the minute the pelvic bone separates, and if something does go wrong, you have to get them in the car, or wait for a vet to get in their car and drive to provide help, whereas an ambulance can be on the scene in half the time.