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Thread: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

  1. #41
    Cavy Slave AmberCalzone's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    You're just further proving my point though, spy9doc. If it has nothing to do with this thread, it certainty does not belong here. Your past experiences with the OP means nothing to this thread, especially if you're going to use them as a basis for name calling. Even with "all the information", as you claim, I stand by my opinion that name calling is completely and totally uncalled for. You claim that the OP is acting like a child, but I learned at a young age that adults handle disputes very differently than what you've resorted to.

    My point is though, that it has been cleared up that discussing breeding is NOT against the forum rules. Giving advice on how to breed, etc, is... but simple discussion is not. So in that regard, the OP is *not* being disrespectful to the forum for stating her opinion. It is not the opinion of the majority of the forum, that's very true... it is even true that the group as a whole has taken an anti-breeding approach, I understand that. Simply being in the minority does not make one disrespectful though. To quote amazingpiggy;
    "this forum is like a family and in a family you don't insult each other's beliefs and opinions."
    I agree with this completely, but where I (may?) disagree with you is that I whole heartily believe it must go both ways. You do not have to agree with one another (hell, what family ever agrees on everything?! ha), but at least be civil to each other's opinions and respect one another without belittling anybody.

    That's really all I have to say on the matter. I understand that everyone feels very strongly about whatever they believe in, but I just don't understand why we can't all be nice to each other.
    Last edited by AmberCalzone; 10-13-14 at 01:50 pm.

  2. #42
    Administrator bpatters's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    This thread has done very well so far. If you want it to be left open, stop with the criticisms of other posters.

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  4. #43
    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I haven't seen any name calling. I have seen people describe a behavior pattern as they see it. Her op was absolutely designed to be combative and inflammatory. This is, as stated, not the only thread where such behavior has been seen and is a pattern of behavior. The behavior is what is being addressed.
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    Cavy Slave AmberCalzone's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    This discussion is not about anyone's behavior though. It's about breeding. That tidbit did not have a place in this specific discussion.

    ETA: With that said, I already gave my stance on the topic at hand (breeding), so I'm going to take my own advice, zip it now and go on marry way. Time to look at some C&C cages I think, ha!

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    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think when you post a rant you're behavior is very much a part of the discussion.
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    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner spudsthepiget's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I do not like the argument that they're trying to "improve" the breed. There are so many animals with health problems because of this. This is what I'm talking about: http://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress....d-improvement/

    I have issues with people that would knowingly breed these animals with lifelong health problems because they're "cute" or because it's their "namesake". It's not just dogs, either; Scottish flop cats live their almost their whole lives in pain because the of the flop in their ears. Micro pigs are purposely underfed and malnourished when they're bred so people will say "how cute!" Roan and Dalmation pigs are bred because they're cute, but produce lethal whites with so many health problems.

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  9. #47
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I don't know if I buy the 1 in 5 pigs die. But regardless, Im sure that death may happen in any breed or human for that matter. Its just a fact of life, animal or human.

    I get it that pet stores are terrible, but we should work on regulations, laws and such because if we take those away, we push breeding to backyard breeders who are not regulated. Breeding is going to happen, wouldn't it be better to keep it in stores where there could be regulations than left to amateurs who are just doing it for the buck and aren't regulated and terrible things will happen because there is nothing in place?

    Have you seen all the rabbits and dogs on other sites for sale lately???? Tons and tons and just by backyard breeders who have no idea what they are doing, they probably have females dying all the time, but if it was a responsible, regulated breeder who took care with proper food, housing, vet care, things would be different.

    Just saying.......

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    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner pinky's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by daisy1cow View Post
    I don't know if I buy the 1 in 5 pigs die. But regardless, Im sure that death may happen in any breed or human for that matter. Its just a fact of life, animal or human.

    I get it that pet stores are terrible, but we should work on regulations, laws and such because if we take those away, we push breeding to backyard breeders who are not regulated. Breeding is going to happen, wouldn't it be better to keep it in stores where there could be regulations than left to amateurs who are just doing it for the buck and aren't regulated and terrible things will happen because there is nothing in place?

    Have you seen all the rabbits and dogs on other sites for sale lately???? Tons and tons and just by backyard breeders who have no idea what they are doing, they probably have females dying all the time, but if it was a responsible, regulated breeder who took care with proper food, housing, vet care, things would be different.

    Just saying.......
    You can look up the regulations that the Department of Agriculture in your state has on it's books that covers breeding, pet stores, rescues, etc. It varies by state. Even if they have specific laws, it takes inspectors to investigate complaints which is costly. Most of the time, they'll only step in where there's a large scale rescue. They won't get involved with small scale backyard breeders, especially when it's animals that are used as reptile feeders.

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    Administrator bpatters's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    The big pet stores are never going to deal with backyard breeders. The people who contract with those stores to supply pets have to guarantee them thousands of pets at a time. Getting that many from small breeders would be a bookkeeping/transportation/storage nightmare, and would be unprofitable besides.

    Many, if not most, of the guinea pigs available for sale in places like Petco and PetSmart are imported from other countries, so our laws would have no effect whatsoever.

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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I'm not going to repeat anything people have already said. There were some very good points raised, and I think it's important to have these kinds of discussions sometimes just because... ideas! they are good to discuss! That said, I'll just mention I'm firmly in the non-breeding camp, mainly for animal rights reasons, but also because I am geneticist and I know very well how little we know about many things related to genes and gene function. It is slightly terrifying.

    The main point of my replying was to say this about talking about anything online or in real life: you don't have to get people to agree with you. You can discuss ideas online and not have to win at the internet doing so. It's an easy trap to fall into, but, remember, the best discussions are the ones where people remain mature and awesome, and where you do not have to get people to admit that you are right (and they wrong) to have a terrific conversation about something. I know that when you're dealing with something that affects the health and well-being of non-human animals people get very passionate on both sides, but calm, mature discussion wins out more than anything. And who doesn't love an informative exchange of ideas?

    Please carry on.

    (P.S. I believe the 1/5 quote is attributed to Tracy Iverson. He is easy to find on the internet and social media. Perhaps someone could politely message him to clear up where he obtained the statistic from? No swamping him with messages though.)

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    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner Princess_Piggie's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I agree that discussion on any subject between two strongly opposing sides can make for not only intelligent debate, but also shed light on some things that the people participating may not have knowledge of.

    However, it seems to me that the manner the subject was addressed in on this particular thread was not for intelligent debate, it was for, as clearly stated, a rant. A rant implies anger, frustration, etc. And more to the point, OP tries to make their point by insulting anything they disagree with. They dislike the idea of adopting from a shelter, because they're "dirty" and "lie about the animals health and background".

    Before anyone makes a "those in glass houses" comment, yes, the majority of us (including me) insult breeders, mills and pet stores to the highest degree, but that's because it's widely known that the things we insult like their treatment of their animals, the vet care they provide, the poor living conditions, are hard cold facts that canbe generalised because those things aren't confined to one particular place, it's widespread across the vast majority of those sorts of places.

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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Oh yes, definitely, @Princess_Piggie. It was a rant hence the you don't have to win at the internet comment. However, good things can come from muddy beginnings. I think most people here are capable of turning something negative into a useful discussion. People power!

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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Just out of curiosity.

    Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

    Mine survived............... 0/5

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    Cavy Slave pigger123's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by daisy1cow View Post
    Just out of curiosity.

    Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

    Mine survived............... 0/5
    I did a browse on the pregnancy section of the forum, and the majority of threads involving pregnant pigs ended happily with a healthy mother and pups. There were definitely quite a few that had stillborns or pups with problems (like lethals), but overall I don't think it's generally a 1/5 mortality rate. My pregnant pig had no problems, and all 4 pups were healthy.

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    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner ThePigAlchemist's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Another point worth making is that the people with pregnant pigs who posted here are more likely to pursue help when there are complications and provide good care for the pigs. The pregnant pigs here are a lot better off than a lot of breeders' pigs, I'm sure.

    That being said, I've never had any experience with pregnant pigs, so I don't have personal experience to add to that. I do remember seeing quite a few threads with at least one stillborn or baby that died shortly after birth.

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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    We've probably had 40 or 50 litters born at our rescue in the past 10 years.
    We did lose one mom but she never even made it to our rescue. She gave birth to 5 stillborn pups at a shelter and then the shelter asked me to rescue her. I picked her up, took one look at her and took her straight to the vet, where she later passed away. It was a while ago but I seem to remember it being pregnancy toxemia. There were a couple moms that we could have lost if we weren't willing to have a $800 emergency Cesarean done on one and took another one to a vet in the middle of our Christmas dinner due to a pup being stuck in the birth canal. She made it but the pup didn't. We've had to assist other moms too.
    Unfortunately, we have had several stillborn pups. I'm beginning to suspect that some stillborns are due to litters coming too quickly or to inexperienced moms who don't clean the sac off quick enough.

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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    So one mom in 40 or 50, that isnt 1 in 5

    The stat was for sows that died, not babies. I just want to show that I think that 1 in 5 Sowes dying isnt correct. Even if you didn't save the other moms, that would be 3 in 40 or 50.

    I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I just want to see that it isn't quite right
    @CavyHouse Thank you for the work that you do. Stillborn pups are probably more common than sows passing. My baby that was stillborn was HUGE for whatever reason, the other baby was 3 oz.

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    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner ThePigAlchemist's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    In my opinion, far more important than the risk of death to the sow in breeding is the fact that it entails creating even more pigs in a world where guinea pigs are dying for want of a home. It's a numbers game. I'll never support intentionally adding baby pets to the world while shelter pets die or live their whole lives without a stable home.

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    Cavy Slave 6GPS7's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by daisy1cow View Post
    Just out of curiosity.

    Out of all of us that have had an "accidental" litter, how many lost their sows? I know there are many who've had litters.

    Mine survived............... 0/5
    This site is not a representative sample of all sows and guinea pigs. Not only is it not enough data, it's biased data, because the people who come here looking for advice may not update if their pig dies. Therefore, any "data" gathered here is statistically useless. You cannot gather any conclusions whatsoever based on a flawed sample.

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    Cavy Slave 6GPS7's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by daisy1cow View Post
    So one mom in 40 or 50, that isnt 1 in 5

    The stat was for sows that died, not babies. I just want to show that I think that 1 in 5 Sowes dying isnt correct. Even if you didn't save the other moms, that would be 3 in 40 or 50.

    I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I just want to see that it isn't quite right
    @CavyHouse Thank you for the work that you do. Stillborn pups are probably more common than sows passing. My baby that was stillborn was HUGE for whatever reason, the other baby was 3 oz.
    As I said above, you did not draw these conclusions based on an appropriate or unbiased sample size, so there is no way to draw the conclusion from the data in this thread or this site that the 1/5 statistic "isn't quite right."

    Further, let's say that the 1/5 statistic isn't right. Let's say it's 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100. That's better. But you know, that 1 sow still dies. That's still hundreds or thousands of sows dying needless deaths for completely unnecessary reasons. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of pigs available throughout the world. There is no reason whatsoever for intentional breeding, and there is no reason whatsoever for innocent animals to die because someone thinks they are a "responsible breeder."

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