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Thread: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

  1. #21
    Cavy Slave Soecara's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    While I have never intentionally bred guinea pigs, I have had more then a few come into my care pregnant. I did not post about all of these cases on the forums, simply because I did not feel I needed advice.

    Here is my personal experience with guinea pig births from sows who for a majority of their pregnancies where fed an excellent diet and housed in appropriately sized cages. As you can see, losing the mum was uncommon in my experience, but complications were not. I do not believe the good breeders you have found would divulge the number of stillborns they have had.



    Caramel - mum and 4 pups all healthy.

    Zhe - mum and 3 pups all health, labour much longer then normal and much more bleeding after giving birth then normal.

    Xoie - mum and 1 pup all healthy.

    Ginger - 2 of 4 pups stillborn, mum retained a placenta for 8 hours and for the whole time she looked like she was on deaths door. I strongly believe that if I had not taken her to a vet I would have lost her.

    Star - mum miscarried 4 pups an estimated 3 weeks prematurely, mum was taken to a vet but there was nothing they could do for her and mum also died shortly afterwards.

    Sally - 4 pups and mum all healthy.

    Willow - 1 stillborn, 2 pups died within the first 3 days of birth, and 1 pup and mum healthy.

    Fluff - mum and 2 pups made it through birth, 1 pup had a birth deformity and died before he was 3 weeks old.

    Mimi (came to me extremely malnourished, a friend had found her in their backyard - vet exam showed poorly healed broken ribs and scurvy, it was decided she would recover her weight with me. It was found out by me four weeks later that she was pregnant, so it was decided she would stay with me until her pup were at least three weeks old.) - mum and 2 pups all healthy. All three were re-homed together to the friend who found them, as they were all girls.


    I would also like to add, no matter what source you get your guinea pigs from there is no guarantee that they will live a long healthy life. As you can see, the reason I do not support breeding is from personal experience with guinea pigs giving birth. I strongly disagree with anyone who would intentionally put their animals in this position.
    Last edited by Soecara; 10-12-14 at 08:35 pm.

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  3. #22
    Cavy Slave AmberCalzone's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Is it really in the rules that you can't talk about breeding? Or is it only discouraged? Is it even /legal/ to say, "You can't voice your opinion here because I say so?". It reminds me of a small business that was recently shut down. They claimed, "I don't have to serve gay people because I don't believe homosexuality is ethical, and it's my business so I can make that decision". Ugh, no, they could not make that decision, and were shut down because of it. Just because you own a forum, can you really limit people's right to free speech, just because it goes against your own beliefs? If you make an open forum public (which this is, by letting USRs sign up and post) you should have to allow all view points and opinions. Just because it's yours doesn't mean you can tyrant over it and ignore laws by limiting speech. I'm not saying that this is what is happening here, I honestly hope that's not the case (which I'm assuming it isn't, seeing as MODs have posted on this thread). But I firmly believe that as long as everything stays respectful, all viewpoints should be allowed.

    ETA: (In reply to barbaramudge's rant)

  4. #23
    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner ThePigAlchemist's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    It's totally legal. The first amendment guarantees the government cannot punish you for what you say, nothing more. If someone says something I don't appreciate in my house, I have every right to remove them from my house. That being said, I haven't seen any censorship here. This thread is up, and other threads like it are as well. Opinions counter to the beliefs of the forum aren't silenced, they are talked about.

  5. #24
    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I'm guessing being in the "Kitchen" allows more leeway but the short answer is: yes. Cavy Spirit owns this forum and can in fact say you can't voice that opinion here. It is not the same as a restaurant. By registering you are essentially giving up your "freedom" and agreeing to follow the rules. Nobody is making you become a member. You can read the rules and decide it's not for you and go elsewhere.
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  6. #25
    Cavy Slave
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Besides which, running a forum costs money. Which means the person running this site is paying for each and every one of these comments to appear here. It's absolutely their right to say that they're not going to spend their money to keep up material that they don't like.

  7. #26
    Cavy Slave Soecara's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberCalzone View Post
    Is it really in the rules that you can't talk about breeding? Or is it only discouraged? Is it even /legal/ to say, "You can't voice your opinion here because I say so?". It reminds me of a small business that was recently shut down. They claimed, "I don't have to serve gay people because I don't believe homosexuality is ethical, and it's my business so I can make that decision". Ugh, no, they could not make that decision, and were shut down because of it. Just because you own a forum, can you really limit people's right to free speech, just because it goes against your own beliefs? If you make an open forum public (which this is, by letting USRs sign up and post) you should have to allow all view points and opinions. Just because it's yours doesn't mean you can tyrant over it and ignore laws by limiting speech. I'm not saying that this is what is happening here, I honestly hope that's not the case (which I'm assuming it isn't, seeing as MODs have posted on this thread).
    You absolutely can voice your opinion, just do not be surprised when many members of an openly anti-breeding forum disagree with you about breeding. It would be like a person posting on a rat forum that all they are good for is feeding to snakes, while that might be your opinion you should expect a vast majority of other people on that forum to disagree with you and be quite vocal about it.

    Worst case scenario is the thread will be locked if it gets out of hand, sometimes it is simply moved to this section which is called "the Kitchen" for a reason, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

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  9. #27
    Administrator bpatters's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    The rules of the forum are that you cannot discuss the specifics of breeding your own guinea pigs, or offer advice about breeding to anyone who wishes to breed. A person who deliberately breeds is not allowed to post pictures of their pigs or their cages.

    The pros and cons of breeding can be discussed as long as the discussion doesn't turn into a flame war. If it does, the thread will be closed -- not because it discusses breeding, but because it has gotten too heated.

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  11. #28
    Cavy Slave
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by barbaramudge View Post
    It is not the same as a restaurant.
    Actually they totally can kick you out of a restaurant for behaving in a way they don't like. The first amendment just says the government can't stop you from saying things they don't like. No one is obligated to give you a soapbox to stand on.

  12. #29
    Cavy Slave AmberCalzone's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I guess I just do not see the connection between a house and an online public forum. I am glad that censorship (from what you say) isn't a normal thing here, though. It just wouldn't sit easy with me if this site stood for "We are totally 100% anti breeding and any other opinion than that will not be tolerated here." I respect that this site is anti-breeding, and because I'm respectful of that opinion, I do not share my own opinion on here very often at all. But it just seems like in return others opinions should also be accepted, if they do choose to share it. I totally get people giving points on WHY they believe breeding is bad (trust me, I've given the 1/5 sows lecture countless times to people who are looking to get into "hobby breeding"!), but there shouldn't be any bashing or anything, and just general respect should be given. I'm glad to see that for the most part, everyone in this thread has been respectful of differing opinions.
    Last edited by AmberCalzone; 10-12-14 at 09:01 pm. Reason: Spelling/grammar correction

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  14. #30
    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by bpatters View Post
    The rules of the forum are that you cannot discuss the specifics of breeding your own guinea pigs, or offer advice about breeding to anyone who wishes to breed. A person who deliberately breeds is not allowed to post pictures of their pigs or their cages.

    The pros and cons of breeding can be discussed as long as the discussion doesn't turn into a flame war. If it does, the thread will be closed -- not because it discusses breeding, but because it has gotten too heated.
    Thank you for the distinction. I should have used a different word than "rules" to get my point a crossed I guess. The original poster complained about the responses received and that was the part I find so irritating.
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    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    It's not "public" in the way you're using the word. It is private yet shared with those the owner lets in. Like a really big house.
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    Moderator foggycreekcavy's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    They are trying to improve their guinea pigs, increase rigour, reduce health problems in their particular line etc.

    Most of the breeders I'm aware of don't know what health problems are going to occur. It's not usual for breeders to keep their pigs for long. Most are sold (pets or show/breeding stock) before health issues show up. Think of the satin guinea pigs and their problems with osteodystrophy, which don't start showing symptoms until they are around 3 years old. I know that some of the breeders in my area were breeding for the short rounded noses in Americans, and I found that some of them, as they got older, had respiratory problems.

  17. #33
    Moderator CavyMama's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    I'm sure there are members here who are okay with breeding but because of the forum's stance on the issue, they choose to respect Teresa and her forum by keeping it to themselves. As @bpatters said, there are specific rules about what can and cannot be discussed regarding breeding.

    I closed the thread by the OP earlier because it had veered off from the original question of "which type of pig should I get?" into the issue of breeding. Things were getting heated and going nowhere fast so the thread was closed.

    Many excellent points were brought up here. There are so many reasons that this forum is against breeding. The OP stated that the breeders he knows don't breed unless they have homes for the litter so it doesn't add to the overpopulation problem. False. In fact, it adds to it. Overpopulation problem does not only apply to animals without homes. Every guinea pig that is produced by these breeders takes a home away from a pig in a rescue or shelter. Those pigs might be euthanized for lack of space and the homes they may have gotten instead, went to the pigs that the breeders produced. There are so many guinea pigs in rescues and shelters waiting for homes. To add to this problem by creating MORE pigs is irresponsible. Let's find homes for the homeless pigs before we even begin to think about creating more pigs.

    Yes, obviously we have pigs because whether accidentally or on purpose, guinea pigs were bred. Unlike cats or dogs, guinea pigs in shelters are not found as strays. People got tired of them or couldn't take care of them anymore. Most likely those people got the pig from a store or from a breeder. So please do not delude yourself into thinking that breeders are blameless in this problem. They create this problem when they produce even MORE pigs despite the already homeless pigs in the shelters and rescues.

    And yes, they might take better care of their stock than a store does or a breeding mill does but they are still breeding and creating the problem. It doesn't matter how well the pigs are taken care of. Breeding is breeding. Backyard, mill, private breeder or otherwise. The end result is the same.

    They are creating pigs where there is no need for pigs. We are not in danger of running out of guinea pigs, not by a long shot. There is absolutely zero reason to breed.

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  19. #34
    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner pinky's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    You'll often find breeders will refer to themselves as "hobby breeders." It's a fun thing for them to try and create a certain look or color. You'll often see ads for "werewolves" or for guinea pigs they're trying to get rid of that "carries a gene" for a certain breed.... kind of reminds me of a "bruised and reduced" sale. You'll also note that the breeders will charge more for for females because they will continue to breed them which results in a glut of males up for adoption. This week, a few ads came up from some teddy breeders who had a bunch of male pups. I've never seen them post a single female, though. One time, I emailed one and asked why they don't ever list females and they replied back, saying that their fellow breeders buy the females from them. The hobbyists work together. And don't forget about the reptile owners who benefit from the overstock of guinea pigs that no one wants. They are the ones that really pay the price for the overbreeding.

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  21. #35
    Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner Princess_Piggie's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    @barbaramudge, I'm completely with you in regards to what irked you in the original post.

    It's arrogant and disrespectful to agree to respect the forum policies and then deliberately make multiple posts trying to disrepute them.

    So many members hold their own opinions that may differ from forum policies, but those who want to benefit from the information, insight and experience of the site respect the forum enough to not deliberately make waves.

    Want to discuss breeding? Go somewhere that allows it. Don't come in to a breeding free discussion zone and try to change it to suit your opinion.

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  23. #36
    Cavy Slave barbaramudge's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Thank you. Better worded than fine but exactly what I was trying to say.
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    Cavy Slave spy9doc's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Princess_Piggie View Post
    It's arrogant and disrespectful to agree to respect the forum policies and then deliberately make multiple posts trying to disrepute them
    I couldn't agree with you more. It's a perfect description of the OP and the way she interacts with others.

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  26. #38
    Cavy Slave AmberCalzone's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by spy9doc View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more. It's a perfect description of the OP and the way she interacts with others.
    This is completely uncalled for. I'm not sure why you believe that throwing out insults is the proper way to interact with others. Not everyone has to agree with everyone else's view point, but you must be respectful to one another.

    It has been cleared up by both MODs and Admins that the discussion of breeding IS allowed on this forum. What isn't allowed is flame wars, and resorting to name calling is exactly the type of thing that will make a civil discussion (which this has mostly been up until this point) turn into one. I'd think we're all a bit more mature than that. I'm sure we can have a discussion, even one with very different and passionate viewpoints, without belittling anybody else. It's a very sad day if we're incapable of doing that.

  27. #39
    Cavy Slave
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    A responsible breeder is self announced or announced by other breeders NOT by people like us.
    Any one who puts a animals life at risk no matter what the odds of survival are is NOT responsible unless the procedure is for health reasons like a surgery of such.
    A breeder is a job a way to make money or a hobby, I don't know about you but I certainly don't put animals life at risks as a job or for fun.


    a few points to take in about breeding

    1. One in five sows and pups die
    2. The breeder can't breed just one pig for you, what happens to the other baby's go to bad homes or other breeders, what happens when they go to a home who have no clue what they are doing, who may breed their pigs and restart that awful cycle of bad homes, breeders and people who show there pigs.

    this forum is like a family and in a family you don't insult each other's beliefs and opinions.
    I don't walk into my aunts house and say I hate how she makes her stew or cleans her clothes, so why knock what this foum believes in and strives to tell people about and follow.

    i personally think your wrong and out of order which the manner you carried on with getting this point you believe in across.

    I hope you read through the other post and threads on this topic on this matter and change your mind.

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  29. #40
    Cavy Slave spy9doc's Avatar
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    Re: I am not against breeders. (Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberCalzone View Post
    This is completely uncalled for. I'm not sure why you believe that throwing out insults is the proper way to interact with others. Not everyone has to agree with everyone else's view point, but you must be respectful to one another.
    Before you lecture me, consider that you don't have the facts. The OP and I had previous conversations on another thread. I had tried to help her and she responded like a spoiled child. She claims to be 18 y.o., but certainly doesn't act as such. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

    Insofar as a discussion of breeding.......we've all been down that road too many times before either of you joined the Forum. I'm known to have acquaintances among some of the top breeders in New England, but I respect the rules of this forum and don't discuss breeding.......period. I'm also very pro rescue and certainly support that approach.

    Please.......be sure of your information before you judge.

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