Urine Very hard water and urine stains

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

All of my GP's leave the white urine stains behind in the cage bottom. They have never eaten romaine lettuce but do eat eat red and/or green leaf daily. The pig with me the longest eats Oxbow Cavy Cuisine and now the other two do as well. Prior to my getting them they ate Kaytee GP food, and small bits of hay and a few carrots a week--that was it.

All of them leave behind the white pee stains. I had to soak the new GP's cage over night is 9% vinegar to remove the thick layer of pee sediment--I actually had to do this twice.

I live in an area with very hard water. VERY hard. Mine water regularly tests above 8.5 in general hardness. Liquid rock is what we call it. I have to de-scale my coffee pot, dishwasher and washing machine weekly and my hot water heater about every other month.

Could my water be a contributing factor if not a major factor in the production of urine stains?

Digital_Dad · Sep 6, 2012

It can be a contributing factor, switch them over to bottled water and feed them low calcium veggies and see if it starts to clear up.

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

Bottled water is just bottled municipal water--I've read the labels on most of the brands of water available in my area and 99% of them are from local municipal water districts with added minerals to "improve" the taste--so will that help? The added minerals could perhaps make things worse, right?

I suppose I could go with distilled or RO (if I can find it).

What would low calcium veggies consist of? I daily feed red/green leaf; green and yellow bell peppers; and tomatoes. I also occasionally add in zucchini; cilantro; butter lettuce; cucumbers; squash; carrots and rarely bits of fresh fruit (usually Granny Smith apples).

I appreciate your suggestion, DD.

OllieandFriends · Sep 6, 2012

I remember reading somewhere that Oxbow can cause some pigs to have this problem, as can hard water. Could you try a filter for the water?

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

I just read that about Oxbow too--but my new pigs also have the stains and they've only been on Oxbow for a few days. Prior to that they were eating "whatever"--which usually meant a supermarket brand and/or Kaytee. They came with a full bag of Kaytee which I promptly dumped into my out door bird feeders--they are picking through it.

I will change from Oxbow to something else--just to eliminate as much calcium as I can. I can't afford an RO system for my house--that would be $1000.00's of dollars and it wastes a lot of water--like 75%. It's not economical or very water wise to pour that much water down the drain just to get RO water. During this drought it would also be border line criminal...

I do have a filter on my water--the water is unpalatable without one. After going through the water softener, the filter on the faucet and a Britta pitcher--the pH is still over 8.0.

bpatters · Sep 6, 2012

Your water not only could be the major factor in the urine deposits, it probably IS the major factor.

You run your drinking water through the softener? We had one when we lived in Chicago, and it was a big no-no to drink water that had been through the softener.

Just as a test, I'd buy some bottled water and give that to them for a month or so. That shouldn't break the bank, but would be enough time to see if it has any effect on the deposits.

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

Salt is the usual water softening agent and the reason most aren't supposed to drink it--esp. those prone to high blood pressure. We do filter at the faucet after it goes through the softener for our personal use. For the animals, we also run it through a Britta pitcher.

FWIW...all of my litter box using animals leave mineral deposits behind. I never thought that it was a problem--other than the unsightly deposits which I periodically dissolve with an over night soak in vinegar. This is making me totally re-think my animals' water consumption.

I'll give it a go with the bottled water and report the results.

pinky · Sep 6, 2012

I buy bottled water that says it was purified through reverse osmosis. Added minerals should be listed on labels so read the label before you buy. I lost a guinea pig due to stones and I believe it was from the minerals in our water so all of mine get bottled water now.

MrWhistles · Sep 6, 2012

I never give myself, anyone or my animals water straight from the tap. Everyone drinks from our Britta container. I hate the metal taste in our tap water. And our animals show a preference from tap to filtered. Our pug will NOT drink anything but filtered water. The rest of the animals minimally touch the tap water.

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

I will look for distilled and/or RO water without added ingredients. I would hate to lose another Guinea to a preventable problem.

pinky · Sep 6, 2012

texasreb said:
I will look for distilled and/or RO water without added ingredients. I would hate to lose another Guinea to a preventable problem.

Distilled shouldn't be given on a daily basis because it can lead to osmotic shock.

Travelingirl916 · Sep 6, 2012

pinky said:
Distilled shouldn't be given on a daily basis because it can lead to osmotic shock.

Do you have any info on this? My exotics vet had me switch my pigs to distilled to prevent stones.

Digital_Dad · Sep 6, 2012

This is purely for informational purposes: Water that has been through a water softener is not safe to drink, the installer should have a bypass line for cold water that runs to your kitchen faucet so you can get Un-softened water when needed. And distilled water is not safe to drink. I have worked in this field and I have done a lot of research on water in my past.

bpatters · Sep 6, 2012

I think the jury is still out on distilled water. If you live in area without access to clean water, distilled water is probably very good for you. But it doesn't have the minerals and trace elements that non-distilled water does. The World Health Organization says there are pros and cons to it -- it's clean and free of bacteria, but distilling water takes away essential nutrients.

The physiologic process of osmosis, which is the passage of water through a semi-permeable membrane (like a cell wall), says that electrolytes (the ions that are dissolved in water) will pass from the area of greatest concentration to the area of least concentration. So if you drink a lot of distilled water (which has no ions), the electrolyte ions in your body will be leached out by the water. If you drank something with a lot of electrolytes in it, your body would absorb the electrolytes (think drinking Gatorade during a long foot race).

How much distilled water would you have to drink for this to harm you? I don't know, and I don't know if anyone else does, either. My guess is that drinking only distilled water is probably not a good idea. On the other hand, if you (or your guinea pig) are developing urinary tract stones (and probably other nasty unwanted things in your body, such as calcification of the arteries) from drinking water that's very hard, that's not good either. So you pays your money and takes your choices.

I think if I lived in an area with very hard water, I'd try to find a source of softer bottled water, but not distilled.

@Digital_Dad, that was my understanding about softened water. We had three water taps on the kitchen sink -- hot, softened cold, and unsoftened cold, which was the one from the bypass.

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

Oh boy...it can't be simple, can it?

I'll do some research and figure out what is best for the piggies. I know that the most common bottled water available around here is Ozarka. It says right on the label that it's sourced from Dallas municipal water.

As far as my water softener goes, I never actually looked into whether or not the kitchen faucet is by-passed. If it's a common and necessary bypass--I'm sure mine is bypassed.

This is the most thought I've put into water in a long time!

I do appreciate all of the comments and potential pitfalls in my line of thinking.

Digital_Dad · Sep 6, 2012

I have to agree with what bpatters said, distilled water is better than contaminated water.

@bpatters , In the field I have come across many poor installations where no bypass was installed, either by the installer or the homeowner.

(broken link removed)

This is a PDF from Ozarka / Nestle Waters North America, on pages 13 and 14 it outlines the process for their "Drinking Water" form municipal sources, they also have Spring water and distilled water as well as different processes for each.

Travelingirl916 · Sep 6, 2012

bpatters said:
I think the jury is still out on distilled water. If you live in area without access to clean water, distilled water is probably very good for you. But it doesn't have the minerals and trace elements that non-distilled water does. The World Health Organization says there are pros and cons to it -- it's clean and free of bacteria, but distilling water takes away essential nutrients.

The physiologic process of osmosis, which is the passage of water through a semi-permeable membrane (like a cell wall), says that electrolytes (the ions that are dissolved in water) will pass from the area of greatest concentration to the area of least concentration. So if you drink a lot of distilled water (which has no ions), the electrolyte ions in your body will be leached out by the water. If you drank something with a lot of electrolytes in it, your body would absorb the electrolytes (think drinking Gatorade during a long foot race).

How much distilled water would you have to drink for this to harm you? I don't know, and I don't know if anyone else does, either. My guess is that drinking only distilled water is probably not a good idea. On the other hand, if you (or your guinea pig) are developing urinary tract stones (and probably other nasty unwanted things in your body, such as calcification of the arteries) from drinking water that's very hard, that's not good either. So you pays your money and takes your choices.

I think if I lived in an area with very hard water, I'd try to find a source of softer bottled water, but not distilled.

@Digital_Dad , that was my understanding about softened water. We had three water taps on the kitchen sink -- hot, softened cold, and unsoftened cold, which was the one from the bypass.

We have fine tap water where I live (I've heard it is some of the best in the country). Not hard water, not contaminated, etc. Our family, as well as everyone else I know that lives here, drinks straight from the tap without filters, etc. Our vet had us switch to distilled because he worried one of our pigs had stones (turned out to be a UTI) so he had us switch to distilled anyways to help prevent stones in the future.

Are you guys saying that it would be better for the pigs to stay with the clean tap water, rather than distilled?

texasreb · Sep 6, 2012

My tap water is clean, per se as in it's not contaminated--it's just very hard.

It'd be interesting to pH test the various Ozarka types. Most are sourced near me where the water table is naturally filtered through a bed of limestone. The PDF states that they add a mineral blend to their water that includes calcium to obtain, "that legendary Ozarka taste."

bpatters · Sep 6, 2012

Are you guys saying that it would be better for the pigs to stay with the clean tap water, rather than distilled?

I think so, as long as the water isn't hard. I'm no expert, but I don't see the need for distilled water unless the mineral levels are unacceptably high in tap water.

@texasreb, I don't think the main problem is the pH -- that just has to do with the acidity or alkalinity of the water. That limestone that your water is filtered through probably contributes a whole bunch of minerals to the water. The pH of the water will determine how much of the mineral dissolves in the water, but if you're not in an area with a lot of minerals, the pH doesn't do much.

Travelingirl916 · Sep 6, 2012

Thanks for the info bpatters. I'll have to talk to the vet.

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Urine Very hard water and urine stains

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