Animal Welfare Cats and Dogs...as VEGANS?!

I don't understand why someone would try to force a carnivore to live as a vegan. If they don't believe in eating meat, that's fine. If they don't want a pet that eats meat, then they need to find an herbivore for a pet, not a a carnivore.

There's this one raw vegan couple on youtube who was showing off what their friend fed their dog. Raw food, but no meat. Just raw produce. The owner was going on about how he loves carrots and his health improved.

I don't buy that for a second.

If I had a dog, it would be fed raw meat, organs, and bones in the proper ratios. I don't believe in dogs eating plant matter. I wouldn't even do the table scrap thing. It sounds kind of extremist from an initial view, but it makes sense to me. I do believe dogs were designed to digest raw meats. The raw fed dogs I've seen and researched have better fur, stamina, and cleaner teeth.

My mothers dogs, when I lived with her, just fed pure kibble to all the dogs. The vet told her the kibble would keep their teeth clean. They had rough coats, bad dandruff, were lazy, and their teeth rotted out. Obviously I became leery of conventional wisdom after that. Poor dogs!

I totally agree. Our pets are not made to never eat meat, in fact they are made to eat meat. I totally agree with and understand people who are vegans, but I don't feel we should force that upon our pets who are made to eat meat, and wouldn't be as healthy, live as long, ect on a diet that wasn't made for them. I feed a raw, only meat diet, and I have never had to give any supplements because her diet is great and made for her.

Dogs are omnivores so it's not AS bad on them.. But it isn't good either. Meat should take up most of their diet. A cat though? It is a strict carnivore! Why would you ever do that to a cat? They even tell you to never feed a cat dog food because dog food contains grain and other plants that cats bodies aren't made to digest! Ugh.

MissJean said:

There's this one raw vegan couple on youtube who was showing off what their friend fed their dog. Raw food, but no meat. Just raw produce. The owner was going on about how he loves carrots and his health improved.

I don't buy that for a second.

If I had a dog, it would be fed raw meat, organs, and bones in the proper ratios. I don't believe in dogs eating plant matter. I wouldn't even do the table scrap thing. It sounds kind of extremist from an initial view, but it makes sense to me. I do believe dogs were designed to digest raw meats. The raw fed dogs I've seen and researched have better fur, stamina, and cleaner teeth.

My mothers dogs, when I lived with her, just fed pure kibble to all the dogs. The vet told her the kibble would keep their teeth clean. They had rough coats, bad dandruff, were lazy, and their teeth rotted out. Obviously I became leery of conventional wisdom after that. Poor dogs!

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It's not extremist at all, it's the same philosophy my raw feeding groups follow and what I also follow for feeding my puppy. She is absolutely thriving on it, people have commented on her coat and how amazing her teeth look. She's absolutely a beautiful specimen of a dog, appropriate weight and activity level as well.

I also follow a natural rearing method which is more debatable that involves along with a species appropriate diet, no vaccines and no chemicals unless absolutely medically necessary. Usually it's only necessary in a dog that has been raised on kibble and was recently switched to a raw diet. Most dogs (from stories shared in our groups) who are naturally reared with no vaccines, no chemicals and on an appropriate diet live to a very old age with no health issues, including lower cases of cancer, joint problems and bone deformities. My dog's natural immunities that she has built up from being on a species appropriate diet and not being bombarded with chemicals and other crap has kept her incredibly healthy and happy. We even had a few dogs (that were all vaccinated) that came down with Parvo in our neighborhood where we all take our dogs for walks. Parvo can be passed just by the dogs walking in the same areas, so it was pretty scary for a bit but she came out with flying colors while almost all of the dogs in our area came down with it to differing degrees and unfortunately some didn't make it.

I can't say it's right for everybody but I know that I believe the results and what I've seen.

MissJean said:

There's this one raw vegan couple on youtube who was showing off what their friend fed their dog. Raw food, but no meat. Just raw produce. The owner was going on about how he loves carrots and his health improved.

I don't buy that for a second.

If I had a dog, it would be fed raw meat, organs, and bones in the proper ratios. I don't believe in dogs eating plant matter. I wouldn't even do the table scrap thing. It sounds kind of extremist from an initial view, but it makes sense to me. I do believe dogs were designed to digest raw meats. The raw fed dogs I've seen and researched have better fur, stamina, and cleaner teeth.

My mothers dogs, when I lived with her, just fed pure kibble to all the dogs. The vet told her the kibble would keep their teeth clean. They had rough coats, bad dandruff, were lazy, and their teeth rotted out. Obviously I became leery of conventional wisdom after that. Poor dogs!

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Definitely!! Dogs and cats should not be eating fruits/veggies/grains as their main diet. And for the raw vegan couple on YouTube that feeds their dog raw produce...they are complete morons!

I have been reading about the raw diet for dogs. They go by the 80/10/10 ration, which can also be used for vegans (with produce, not meat of course). But anyway, I read testimonials that their dogs are healthier than ever -- even their poop stunk less!! When vets say "feed your pet this super processes cheap dog food, because it's healthy for them" makes me think they are saying that either because they are completely ignorant to biology (which would be unlikely because they are vets), or else they are getting payed by large pet food companies to promote their brand. Even dry dog food has a lot of grains in it...
But animals should eat what they were meant to eat!

@Carissa6729 I'm actually on the Raw Feeding mailing list on Yahoo! Just in case we ever decide to get a dog, I want to be prepared. They also don't recommend vaccines for dogs.

MissJean said:

@Carissa6729 I'm actually on the Raw Feeding mailing list on Yahoo! Just in case we ever decide to get a dog, I want to be prepared. They also don't recommend vaccines for dogs.

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I'm curious how they get around the legal requirements for this? I don't give my cats any vaxes, but my county does not require them. They're also strictly indoors. If I had my cats outdoors, I'd make different decisions for sure, quite honestly. But my county DOES require vaccinations in order for dogs to be licensed. Or is there a waiver like there is for kids?

(My kids aren't fully vaxed, either, but since they're home schooled, the state doesn't worry about it.)

asnnbrg said:

I'm curious how they get around the legal requirements for this? I don't give my cats any vaxes, but my county does not require them. They're also strictly indoors. If I had my cats outdoors, I'd make different decisions for sure, quite honestly. But my county DOES require vaccinations in order for dogs to be licensed. Or is there a waiver like there is for kids?

(My kids aren't fully vaxed, either, but since they're home schooled, the state doesn't worry about it.)

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Some folks have ran into issues with their vets. Some vets won't work on dogs that haven't had their vaccines. I don't know too much about the licensing.

Normal vaccines, at least here and I think in most parts, you can buy online or at a feed store and administer yourself. You can basically say, "Hey, I gave this at this date" and they will accept it or present to your vet and they will sign off on it, generally. The rabies vaccine however is the tricky one. You can 1. just not get it and you don't take your dog to places that will require it like boarding kennels, 2. get it and only it (although this is not recommended as it can be the most damaging one of all), 3. go to a holistic or homeopathic vet who will do the titers for it and sign for your animal, 4. have a friend buy the vaccine online and have it shipped to you from a state that does not require a vet to administer the rabies vaccine, then present the vaccine bottle with tags for registration (if they allow you to not have a vet sign off), or you can present it to your vet and say that you did the vaccines in another state. That would be assuming you have a somewhat good relationship with your vet who won't question it.

I also belong to the rawfeeding yahoo groups and the facebook groups. I usually don't post though since most everything you need is pretty covered lol. I belong to the novax groups as well.

ETA: No, not all of these are legal options btw, just thought I'd mention that lol.

I have to say that I find lying about an animal being vaxed is just shameful and could pose a serious risk to humans or other animals.

Colorado Cavies said:

I have to say that I find lying about an animal being vaxed is just shameful and could pose a serious risk to humans or other animals.

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It's not so black and white. You should first learn why people aren't vaccinating their dogs and how vaccines work.

MissJean said:

It's not so black and white. You should first learn why people aren't vaccinating their dogs and how vaccines work.

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That's not my issue at all. If you don't want to get them vaxed fine, but lying about it is what makes it so dangerous. There are reasons that laws about things like rabies shots are in place and to allow your vet or anyone else to be put at risk because you lied about your dog having its shots is beyond stupid and irresponsible.

Having to vaccinate your animal against your wishes and required by the big pharmacy and dog food companies (kibble) is also shameful. This is why I said it was very debatable.

There is more and more evidence coming out about the harmful effects of vaccines, not just on humans but on animals as well. More harmful then what they were vaccinated against in the first place. I'm pretty much putting it into layman's terms and there are far more qualified people with medical research to debate the subject then I, but I know what I've seen and I've seen my puppy so far not acquire something that other vaccinated dogs did get because of her health when she was in the same area and situation as these other dogs. I do know there is research that shows that when a dog is vaccinated, even once that they have the immunities for life, and things like rabies are not required bi-yearly or tri-yearly. They have titers that have proven this theory. But again, there are far more qualified people to debate these issues then I.

I'm also a firm believer however when it comes to my family and kids of natural immunities and building up their immune systems rather then pumping them full of meds and waiting for things to go away. Especially when it's something simple like a cold or flu. I prefer to stick to homeopathic remedies and supporting a strong immune system to help get them through things when at all possible.

Colorado Cavies said:

That's not my issue at all. If you don't want to get them vaxed fine, but lying about it is what makes it so dangerous. There are reasons that laws about things like rabies shots are in place and to allow your vet or anyone else to be put at risk because you lied about your dog having its shots is beyond stupid and irresponsible.

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This is moving more into conspiracy and politics, so I won't get into it really, but many, many, many things in this country are run by money, greed and big name companies. Laws that are made aren't always made for the safety of the public.

My cats are strictly indoors and don't get vaccinations, other than rabies when required if they have to go to the vet or be groomed, because I've had two cats that had very bad reactions to vaccines. Since they never go outside, they don't have much risk of getting any diseases. I respect the law with the rabies shot but wouldn't get that either if it weren't required. My horse has all his vaccinations because he's out with other horses at the barn and in the woods, and we have a lot of cases of things like West Nile and even rabies among horses, so the benefits outweigh the risks.

asnnbrg said:

I'm curious how they get around the legal requirements for this? I don't give my cats any vaxes, but my county does not require them. They're also strictly indoors. If I had my cats outdoors, I'd make different decisions for sure, quite honestly. But my county DOES require vaccinations in order for dogs to be licensed. Or is there a waiver like there is for kids?

(My kids aren't fully vaxed, either, but since they're home schooled, the state doesn't worry about it.)

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Are you in the St.Louis area? Because from my understanding the rabies vaccine is required by law for both cats and dogs (not that I follow that... I have a 6 year old cat whose only had 1 rabies vaccine his whole life...) And basically all other vaccines are at truly optional but most vets push getting them at least every 3 years (DHPP for dogs and FVRCP for cats), although there are studies that show these vaccines provide immunity for a lifetime if given. My cat has had 1 FVRCP and 1 Rabies shot and he is 6 years old. My dog who is 5.5yrs has had 3 rabies shots (1year vaccines) and 2 DHPP shots(3 year shots... so he is "due").

I really hate hearing about people feeding their dogs/cats vegan diets. I don't like forcing my own personal beliefs on what is ethical on my animals. Dogs are built to eat and digest meat extremely well. Cats are built to digest meat extremely well. Heck when my cat eats grass when it comes out the other end it looks just like it did going in!

I actually just got one of my friends super interested in feeding her dog raw food. Her dog barely touches her kibble (my dog did the same thing). I also have the friends who are like "why would you feed the dog people food? why not just give them a scoop of kibble?" and the friends who say " I wouldn't feed the chicken raw from the salmonella". So I went all biology major on them and explained why raw feeding is better (or at least not feeding crappy kibbles).

I don't like the vaccines for animals. After learning why vets only give cats shots in their hind end instead of neck, I don't trust any vaccine(I don't care how "safe" they are). I avoid vaccines for myself as much as possible as well, I refuse to get flu shots. It's really awkward if I don't take my dog/cat in for their vaccines now because I actually shadow my vets (my one vet doesn't like that I feed raw). My plan is to actually go to vet school... except I want to be a holistic vet for dogs/cat or work with wild/exotic animals or all 3! I don't want to be forcing vaccines on dogs and cats, but I would love to help people figure out what a proper way of caring for their animals naturally. Vaccines are basically about making money, and most people aren't willing to question the vet. I always take vets/doctors advice with a grain of salt until I form my own opinion or research something.

Speaking of chemicals, I also don't really use heartworm prevention or frontline stuff. Almost 6 year old dog, never been positive for heartworms, but I have started giving him the smallest dose possible of ivermectin (although this year it was so dry there were hardly any mosquitos). I don't and won't use flea/tick stuff on my dog. The pour on stuff makes him really sick and makes him all gross. I usually feed him a little garlic to help repel bugs (this year was really bad and he had no fleas, although I picked 2 ticks off none had bit him).

I personally do vaccinate my dog against rabies, bordatella and distemper. I got the 3 year rabies and distemper vaccines and I probably won't get her Bordatella until next year even though it is technically do this month. By the time she is due for her others she will be 5 1/2 so I don't know if I will get them for her. The main reason I get them for her now is because 1. Rabies is required by law and 2. I work in a dog boarding/grooming facility and bring her with me often. She LOOOOVES to play with the other dogs. I don't think yearly vaccinations are necessary but we do require all of the dogs to be UTD unless we have a signed and faxed over vet statement that vaccines are not recommended for a dog/cat. My dog is no exception to the rules.
I also have her on year round heartworm preventative (I live in FL.....it is a MUST here because mosquitos are year round) and I give her flea/tick stuff when I see any on her, usually only 4-5 times/year. She eats grain-free kibble because I cannot afford the pre-made raw and do not trust mysef to feed it correctly if I were to prepare it myself.....not to mention the lack of freezer space.
My kitty has had the leukemia, rabies and feline distemper shots but last year I renewed her rabies and that's it. She is inside only and I don't board her when we go on vacation. She only gets flea/tick stuff when the dog does.
As far as my own vaccinations go, I don't ever get the flu shot but I had all of the "typical" ones when I was a kid that were needed for school.
I also have never had issues with being sick. I get colds like once a year and they are usually mild, occasionally not so mild.

Though this is off topic... I do highly agree with raw feeding, though for a puppy, personally I would feed a pre made raw or a high quality kibble. Puppies need very, very, very specific nutrition for growing and such, with raw that's very hard to meet a puppies needs, and it would be safer to go with something that you know is balanced for a puppy while they are growing. Also, about vaccinations, I highly agree that basically nothing should be given...However with things like rabies, I believe that should be given, because not only is it illegal to not give it, but in some places, if they think your dog has come in contact with a animal that has rabies, and your dog isn't vaccinated, they have the right to euthanasia your dog. No it's not right, but yes it is the law. I also believe in giving the first set of limited puppy vaccinations, but not ever doing it again for the dogs life (And doing Titers if they can be afforded)