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Diarrhea HELP - SEVERE DIARRHEA mushys poops

bpatters

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Great vet report! Wish every guinea pig in the country had a vet who did that.
 

ech90

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@bpatters - I know, wasn't that vet report so great? At first I felt a little bit reluctant to bring Piggy (Buttercup's sister) to the vet for her fungal nose and have been trying to treat it myself, but I felt that they did such a comprehensive job with Buttercup that even if my treatment on Piggy does work I am still going to bring her in just so she can get a really thorough check up as well.

[MENTION=21108]Delaine[/MENTION] - I know, I worry about how much Vitamin C my piggies are getting as well. If I chop up green peppers really finely and mix it with some other veggies I can get Piggy to eat a bit and Buttercup to take a few nibbles. The vet said that red bell peppers have almost twice as much Vitamin C as the green ones (confirmed by Ly&Pigs nutrition charts), so even though they have a higher sugar content I figured that the sweeter taste might convince Buttercup to eat some. Go figure - neither Buttercup nor Piggy would get near the red ones, even when cut into really thin slices with pieces of yummy romaine lettuce wrapped around! They really like romaine, green leaf, and red leaf lettuce, but I try not to give them more than a cup each daily because I don't want to make Buttercup's mushy poops any worse. They go absolutely nuts for parsley which also has a pretty good amount of Vitamin C but like you, I don't want to give them too much because of the high levels of Calcium. Piggy seems a bit indifferent to strawberries, but Buttercup absolutely loves them and they are probably her favorite food right after parsley. Ly&Pigs charts lists them as okay for daily use but also says that all fruits are best fed only 1-2x a week. Buttercup likes them so much though and it's hard not to give in to her begging little eyes, so she probably gets about one big one every other day. How do your piggies like the Oxbow Daily C tablets? I think I might get them for my piggies but am a bit worried about them overdosing on too much of it. I guess that wouldn't really be a problem though since as it is they barely eat any peppers and get most of it from romaine and parsley.

Update on Buttercup:

It is now day 4 of her being on the medication. It's probably too soon to tell, but so far the Flagyl has not seemed to make too much of a difference. In fact, just during the time I've been sitting here writing this post I saw her raise her butt, squeak, and this big thing came out:

photo(40).jpg


It's strange, but she absolutely loves her Flagyl. I think she thinks it is at treat! This is a huge difference from Piggy, who has the fungal nose that I've been putting Betadine and Miconazole on. I don't blame her, but she fights me the whole time and when I am done skulks back and glares at me from the cage.

One of the things the vets told me is that Buttercup really needs to gain some weight. As you can see from the report, she only has a body condition score of 1.5/5 and also you can prominently feel her spine when petting her back. I have increased their amount of pellets to 1.5 cups a day (they don't eat that much but basically their food bowl is never empty), but even though Bcup needs more pellets I don't know how to stop Piggy from eating them as well. Fortunately, from 2/16 to 2/19 Piggy's weight has remained relatively stable (from 1150 g to 1145) but Buttercup's has increased from 650 g to 667. It's not too much of a difference, but at least it's in the right direction!
 

bpatters

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I'd take Buttercup back -- she may need a fecal float to determine what's causing that. That's very soft poop, and not at all normal for a guinea pig. But if it were something that Flagyl would have been effective for, you should be seeing way more improvement than that. In fact, 24 hours on Flagyl was enough to cure the soft poops in my guinea pig.

I'm not impressed with your original vet's statement that if one pig had bacterial/parasite issues the other one would also. I don't think that's the case at all. Obviously something is causing very soft poops in one pig but not the other, and you need to get to the bottom of it. I think you need a fecal float from Buttercup, not from the other pig's poop.

Until you can get her back to the vet, be sure to cut out all vegetables that might be likely to contribute to it -- cucumber, broccoli, cabbage, tomatoes, fruit. Stick to just lettuce and bell pepper if you can.
 

ech90

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Hi bpatters, the original vet did the fecal float on only's Piggy's poop but when I brought Buttercup to the new vet on Wednesday they did a fecal float on her poop and found no parasites in hers either. If it's not parasites and it's not bacterial (I'm assuming that if it was bacterial the Flagyl would have helped more?) then what else possibly could it be? I know that stones could cause the squeaking while pooing, but could that be the cause of mushy poops as well?

Perhaps her system is in overload from all the veggies after not having them for so long, and that is why the Flagyl does not seem to be working as much as it should be? Buttercup hadn't had veggies in so long, so she's been going a little crazy with the lettuce, parsley, and strawberries (still snubbing the bell peppers, though). I will cut out the strawberries and parsley though, and only give her the lettuce and what little of the bell peppers she does eat.

I am bringing Piggy to the new vet next Monday, do you think it is okay to wait to ask about Buttercup and possibly bringing her back in until then? Also, the vet that she saw on Wednesday will not be back until next week, so if I brought her in sometime this week she would be seeing someone new again. Even though they would have the notes/vet report, it wouldn't be the same person that examined her last time. As a side note, her poops as a whole are not all that bad. That was a particularly big/mushy one, but I would say that the majority are pretty much on par with how they were before going on the Flagyl.
 

ech90

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Oh also I forgot to tell you guys, I can't believe I was such a flake but Buttercup and Piggy are both around 2 years old, not 4! I don't even know where I got 4 years old into my head (that is what I told their last vet and this newest one), but I looked back at the emails from the woman I adopted them from and they are only 2! I emailed the new vet last week telling him I made a mistake with Bcup's age and that she is actually 2, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference to him.
 

bpatters

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As long as that big mushy poop was atypical and you don't see any more of them, you may be able to get by with waiting. But if gets any worse, I'd take her back in. I'd also cut out the strawberries, the sugar may be contributing to the problem.
 

ech90

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Thanks, I will cut out the strawberries and if I see any more I will take her in sooner. I am still really hoping that the Flagyl works, but keep telling myself not to get my hopes up in case it doesn't.
 

ech90

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Day 5 Treatment:
weight: 664 g

There has been a change in Buttercup's stools. Whereas before they were generally much longer and bigger, now they seem to be a bit more normal in size, although still rather soft and with a tear-drop shape that is abnormal. Still gassy and squeeking while passing stool, but I feel like at least this is an improvement!

photo(42).jpg

Also tonight, I tried feeding Buttercup some "poop soup" made with a stool fresh from Piggy's butt. I mixed it with about 1 tbsp of warm water, which I now realize was too much. It would have been much easier to get her to eat it all if the soup hadn't been so diluted. When I give her the Flagyl she absolutely loves it and grips the syringe in her mouth so that it is really easy to give it to her, which unfortunately was not the case with this. She wanted to have absolutely nothing to do with it, and I had to wrap her up like a little burrito and really hold her still. Even after 15 minutes of this, I could only get her to take half of the mixture, most of which dribbled down her chin anyway. I think that next time instead of making poop soup I will just try to hide Piggy's poop inbetween two pieces of lettuce and trick Buttercup into eating it that way.

photo(43).jpg
 

Delaine

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Abbey's problem seems so minor compared to poor Buttercup. It is too bad they couldn't give Buttercup a fecal transfusion. Kind of like poop soup but inserted into the other end. My girlfriend was on antibiotics and ended up with Clostridium difficile. They treated her with Flagyl and maybe some other antibiotics, but everytime she went off them the C-diff came back and so she went back on antibiotics. It was a vicious cycle. She lost so much weight and it got to the point the antibiotics were damaging her liver. She is a nurse and she got a healthy donor and did a fecal transfusion on herself. I don't want to get into the details, but you should look it up. The good bacteria was immediately restored in her bowel and she was on her way back to good health. I am not sure if this is an option for guinea pigs.
 

Rhyue

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One thing that comes to mind for me might be something wrong with her intestinal function. Like perhaps she's having some issue with intestinal peristalsis (the contraction that moves the contents)? It might be causing gas to build up in her intestines instead of it being slowly passed (and possibly giving bacteria extra time to process and create more methane), it might also explain why she's straining- if her intestines aren't smoothly pushing she might be having to "manually" push. Though I'd imagine she aught to be actually constipated if that was the case, though the excessive water may be keeping the stool moist (and might explain the overal lack of shape). This is a total shot in the dark though. I might be spouting BS, just throwing that out there anyway. She might also have an abnormal intestinal flora composition, between a cleans of the current flora (thru antibiotics) and restoration with more normal flora (say from piggy) this should fix the issue if thats the case. In the one video she bit at her side while she was pooping, which seems to suggest she does find it painful.

Bacteria Babble Ahead:

However, I am more knowledgeable/educated on bacteria and just wanted to throw it out there that the chlorine in water should NOT affect the bacteria in the GP more so than a human. The GP may be more sensitive to the chlorine (due to its lesser body mass), but the bacteria themselves are separate from the pig and should have a similar tolerance to those found in humans. The chlorine concentration in the water is the same if it enters a person or a piggy and so if the bacteria can handle it in a human (assuming a similar flora- which likely is somewhat different considering that humans are omnivores and piggies herbivores, but there should be some overlap) should be able to handle it in a piggy. However, its likely better to give them filtered water all the same (they don't need the chlorine or any other contaminants that may be in the water which the pigs can be more susceptible to).

As for pro-biotics, they're likely NORMALLY ineffectual. Normally the gut is full of bacteria (in humans for example there are 10 bacterial cells in our body for every 1 human cell, and most of those bacteria are in our gut and can make up as much as 60% of the dry weight of feces- thats a lot of bacteria!) which have already established themselves and there are very few "free spots" (this is part of why its so important to have a heathy normal flora, it helps prevent intestinal disease by not letting virulent bacteria grab a spot so to speak). The tiny amount of bacteria that are initially in that yogurt, that survive the low pH of the stomach, and eventually make it to the gut are so severely outnumbered they're unlikely to ever manage to get a stronghold and significantly alter the composition of the intestinal flora. HOWEVER, take some antibiotics and wipe out the gut flora and its suddenly the land of opportunity. Now those few bacteria actually stand a chance and make a place for themselves there and help make a positive flora.

End Bacteria Babble

I'm not sure if it'd help for you, but i also found it very hard to get my boys to eat peppers. For them I just only offered peppers to them (along with the dry of course and water, but only peppers for fresh) and stuck them in a food bowl I normally used for fresh and just sort of left it there. They ignored it for a while, nibbled at it a bit, but then one day they just devoured it all and since they've loved peppers. Just sort of not giving them a choice in the matter its blueberry pie or nothing! It took a couple of days, but they're no longer picky about peppers when with other fresh.

As for the "poop soup" it may be more productive to wash it on fresh food or even rub the poo on fresh food (like lettuce) and then feed it to her. She may be less picky especially if you don't have large pieces or especially drench it (just give her a decent quantity over a number of pieces).
 
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ech90

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Day 7 Treatment:
weight: 668 g

So disappointing, for the past two days I really felt like Bcups poos were starting to do better, being smaller and more well formed. Today, it seems like her poops are back to square one. I sent her vet an email with a picture of one of them and asking when we should start to see improvements from the Flagyl, or if at this point we should consider that the Flagyl will not be effective at all. Also, I asked about bringing in one of Buttercup's stools and doing a fecal culture on it. Ugh not to complain or anything, but I just feel so disappointed.


photo-12.jpgphoto-13.jpg
 
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bpatters

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That seems to me to be cecal material, rather than fecal. I did a little poking around by googling "abnormal cecal fermenation" (without the quotes), and here's what I found. See if it might apply here.

Low-fiber diets and diets high in carbohydrates can ultimately change the bacterial balance of the colon, and result in loose cecal stools. (Self Assessment Colour Review of Small Animals, by Susan A. Brown and Karen L. Rosenthal) They were talking about rabbits, but rabbits also eat cecotropes and a diet similar to guinea pigs.

Any chance that your pig is overdoing the veggies and skimping on the hay? Or that she's getting too many carbs?
 

SurfingPigs

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Wow, I just got reacquainted with this thead... sorry she isn't doing great.

I do agree that those last pictures look like the cecal material I have seen, but finding it out and about like that is surely odd. Good idea on the fecal culture.

I don't recall reading it, but what quantity of veggies are you currently feeding?
 

ech90

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eeek...she just put out two more huge ones! This time I put them next to a quarter so you can get an idea of how large they really is. The only reason I wouldn't think that it is cecal material is because those seem to be the only poos that she eliminates. SurfingPigs, she wasn't getting any veggies for a month but I just started reintroducing them to her diet after her vet appointment last week. At first she was going absolutely crazy with them, but for the past few days I have been trying to limit them again until we get this whole thing sorted out. She has only been getting green bell peppers (which she only picks at) and and about 1 cup of lettuce (romaine, green and red leaf) split between her and her sister each day. They get unlimited timothy hay, and Buttercup definitely seems to eat a lot of it. When she isn't at the water bottle, she is usually in the kitchen area eating hay. I don't know where she could be getting too many carbs from. The vet did tell me to increase pellets to help her gain weight, but I thought that Oxbow Cavy Cuisine was supposed to be high in fiber? It doesn't list the carbohydrate content on the website.

photo-14.jpgphoto-15.jpg
 

ech90

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Buttercup's vet hasn't gotten back to me yet. She has been having long poos all day.photo-16.jpg
 

Delaine

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Hi ech90:

Just been looking up info about bowel problems and guinea pigs and found something interesting. Please let me know what you think. There is an article on "Ulcerative Colitis introduced in laboratory animals by the addition of sodium lignosulfonate". I would really appreciate it if you could help me find out for sure if sodium lignosulfonate is the same thing as "Lignin Sulfonate" which is the ninth ingredient in Cavy Cuisine. From what I have found out I think it is. Maybe it is the pellets causing our guinea pig problems??? Here is the link.
Veterinary pathology - Thomas Carlyle Jones, Ronald Duncan Hunt, Norval W. King - Google Books
 

RodentsRus

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My B/f has Ulcerative Colitis but I didn't know animals can get it..
 

bpatters

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They are not the same, though they are related. Lignin sulfonate is an acid, and sodium lignosulfontate is a sodium salt of that acid.

One is used as binder in foods, thus its use in pellets. The other is used to hold dust down and to prevent steel corrosion, in concrete products, pesticides, dyes, etc.
 

Delaine

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They are not the same, though they are related. Lignin sulfonate is an acid, and sodium lignosulfontate is a sodium salt of that acid.

One is used as binder in foods, thus its use in pellets. The other is used to hold dust down and to prevent steel corrosion, in concrete products, pesticides, dyes, etc.

bpatters: Do you think Lignin Sulfonate could be causing any problems in our guinea pigs?
 

bpatters

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I don't have any idea, really. It's possible that certain pigs could be allergic to, or intolerant of, just about any ingredient in the pellets except the natural foods like hay.

I think if it were me, I'd switch to KM pellets or take them completely off pellets for at least a while and see if anything changes. If the problem is the pellets, it might take a while for things to get straightened out, so I'd give it several days.
 
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