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Rest In Peace 34 guineapigs :(

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traceyennis

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@PigPandemonium- I'm assuming your reply above is aimed at me and to answer your question of whether or not I would go around robbing people if it was a common thing to do then of course I wouldn't! It's quite absurd that you would even suggest such a thing and totally irrelevant about whether or not a guinea pig should be housed outdoors!

We all have our own opinions about how best to look after our pets and while I agree with you that guinea pigs are best suited to be housed indoors I totally disagree with the way you inform people about this! Being insulting and rude is not going to make a person change their mind and just because you believe that guinea pigs should be indoors does not mean that you have the authority to dictate to other people how they should keep their pets!!

I have nothing more to say on this matter now but will instead leave you with a quote from the largest animal organisation we have in the UK and hope that you will think about what is being said in the quote!

"There is no one “perfect” way to care for all guinea pigs because every guinea pig and every situation is different, but certain essential needs must be met. Guinea pigs are now housed indoors as house pets as well as outside. It is up to you how you look after your guinea pig, but you must take reasonable steps to ensure that you meet all his/her needs.
 

nibbler100

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Ok, but I live in a cul-de-sac of 25 houses, 4 of those have dogs, and they're all house-dogs which only go out to go to the toilet, for which they're supervised, except 2 dogs which are the best behaved dogs and are loathed to leave their owners side to go into the garden at all! so if we know our neighbours have safe dogs surely it's not a problem? If somebody moved in across the road with a new dog we'd be very wary, and if there was any hint that they were a problem dog we'd have to re-think.

yeah that medium sized dog i was telling you about? she was a inside side, and wonted to be where ever the family was.. no one would have labled this dog a "problem dog" ... in her life time.. she killed 3 rabbits, a duck, and a squrrle. all the animals where wiled animals and did not belong to anyone.. she just had a nack for killing things.. my dad even at oe pont wanted to train her as a hunting dog.. spet she was scared of gun shots. my point is... a dog can see perfactly fine.. untill its upclose killing you pig.
 

Meaghan

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Yes, it's like taking off the top digit of one of our fingers. That's my point! Thank you for acknowledging what it really is. It's legal but it is very cruel and inhumane. There are still a lot of declawed cats that you can find in shelters or rescues. Once they're declawed and in a shelter, their future is more at risk because they are dependent on a new, unknown owner that might not keep them indoors. Until the procedure is outlawed, it would be better to adopt a declawed one instead of inflicting that torture on another one. I believe there are quite a few cities in CA that have banned declawing. I do believe the ban will spread as more people understand that declawing doesn't only remove nails. There's now a $20,000 fine for declawing cats in Israel. It's a sad statement that we continue this horrific practice in this country.

I never said that it wasn't removing the distal phalange, you did. I was merely correcting you that it wasn't just "part" of the bone. And okay, lets say we adopted a cat instead of taking them in off the street. Great, now two more cats would've been hit by a car. Apparently that's a good compromise. I have never heard of any CA cities that have banned declawing, and I have lived in several CA cities, all with plenty of people who get their cats declawed. As long as it is performed by a licensed veterinarian, I have never even heard of anyone being fined for having their cats declawed.
 

Roxymarie365

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You all are just as bad as PETA. I'm outta this forum, peace

Almost everyone on this forum is like PETA, because we all have something in common: We want ethical (the best) treatment of animals.
 

CavyMama

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"There is no one “perfect” way to care for all guinea pigs because every guinea pig and every situation is different, but certain essential needs must be met. Guinea pigs are now housed indoors as house pets as well as outside. It is up to you how you look after your guinea pig, but you must take reasonable steps to ensure that you meet all his/her needs.

Yeah, that's a quote alright. Now here is a quote from a well known animal welfare organization in the US:
Reasons to avoid the great outdoorsAn outdoor hutch was once considered acceptable housing for guinea pigs. But keeping a pet outside robs them of regular interaction with the family. Out of sight, out of mind. But we've come a long way from this thinking, in part because the disadvantages for guinea pigs are so clear.
  • Outdoor guinea pigs suffer extremes of weather and temperature
  • Outdoor guinea pigs are at risk from predators such as hawks and foxes
  • Hutches, which are usually made of wood, can be more difficult to clean and disinfect
  • A guinea pig's health often deteriorates quickly once she becomes sick, and illnesses may go undetected without regular handling.
 

pinky

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I never said that it wasn't removing the distal phalange, you did. I was merely correcting you that it wasn't just "part" of the bone. And okay, lets say we adopted a cat instead of taking them in off the street. Great, now two more cats would've been hit by a car. Apparently that's a good compromise. I have never heard of any CA cities that have banned declawing, and I have lived in several CA cities, all with plenty of people who get their cats declawed. As long as it is performed by a licensed veterinarian, I have never even heard of anyone being fined for having their cats declawed.

It IS removing the first digit. And it's horrific, barbaric and inhumane. Who says your cat would have been hit by a car if you hadn't adopted? There are probably the same odds they'd have been taken to a shelter and adopted by someone else. If outdoor cats were always hit by cars, cat rescue groups would not advocate TNR programs which are a huge success in major cities including New York. TNR programs save countless ferals that would be euthanized otherwise. Volunteers tend to the colonies and make sure they're fed, vetted and cleaned up after....and, even better yet, they're not declawed. They control rodent populations, too, so they save cities money on rat control... It's a good thing to rescue a cat off the street. Just don't butcher them. If you read what I wrote, I said ISRAEL fines for declawing. Israel is not a city in the U.S. It's in the Middle East. And I know some vets advocate declawing. Of course they might. They get paid to do it.
 

xXMaggieXx

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I feel sorry for the pigs RIP.
 

M.and.F.Piggies

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So basically the person this all started about, put what was left of her guinea pigs back out into the her yard as bait, so she could catch the dog in the act and find out who owns it, I assume to reek vengeance upon the dog for being a dog, and incidentally be reimbursed for the livestock she has lost >(
 

Meaghan

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It IS removing the first digit. And it's horrific, barbaric and inhumane. Who says your cat would have been hit by a car if you hadn't adopted? There are probably the same odds they'd have been taken to a shelter and adopted by someone else. If outdoor cats were always hit by cars, cat rescue groups would not advocate TNR programs which are a huge success in major cities including New York. TNR programs save countless ferals that would be euthanized otherwise. Volunteers tend to the colonies and make sure they're fed, vetted and cleaned up after....and, even better yet, they're not declawed. They control rodent populations, too, so they save cities money on rat control... It's a good thing to rescue a cat off the street. Just don't butcher them. If you read what I wrote, I said ISRAEL fines for declawing. Israel is not a city in the U.S. It's in the Middle East. And I know some vets advocate declawing. Of course they might. They get paid to do it.

None were ferals, though we have fed ferals before too. They would have been hit by a car because, I'm not sure if you're familiar with California, but even our 2-lane roads are posted at 45 or more, and people go even faster than that. There are no open places for TNR colonies to exist here. It is not removing the first digit. Digit refers to all of the phalanges in one of the "fingers" of a cat. And yes, you said Israel, but you should also reread your post, you said CA bans declawing, which I have never heard of. I have never heard of veterinarians advocating declawing, I said that no one has ever gotten fined by ACO's when declawing is done by a veterinarian. You sure can spin some words, huh?
 

traceyennis

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@ CavyMama I'm sorry but I fail to see the relevance of your quote as no one has been discussing in this thread about guinea pigs being housed outdoors in the US. My quote was taken from the RSPCA's website with which I was merely trying to point out that there are differences in different countries as to how best to look after guinea pigs and how it is the custom in the UK for it to be perfectly acceptable for pigs to be housed outside in a shed!
 

pinky

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None were ferals, though we have fed ferals before too. They would have been hit by a car because, I'm not sure if you're familiar with California, but even our 2-lane roads are posted at 45 or more, and people go even faster than that. There are no open places for TNR colonies to exist here. It is not removing the first digit. Digit refers to all of the phalanges in one of the "fingers" of a cat. And yes, you said Israel, but you should also reread your post, you said CA bans declawing, which I have never heard of. I have never heard of veterinarians advocating declawing, I said that no one has ever gotten fined by ACO's when declawing is done by a veterinarian. You sure can spin some words, huh?

I'm not going to play your game of words. Cutting off any part of an animal so you won't have a cat ruining your furniture is selfish and cruel. Someone elderly can fall or break a hip or have countless things happen to them. My parents are 85 years old. My older sister has dogs and cats, my younger sister has a cat and they're out when my parents are there. Scratching thin skin is a lame excuse.
 

CavyMama

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@traceyennis The relevance is proper guinea pig care, regardless of which country they are in. They gave several reasons why it's not a good idea - those reasons apply without regard to which country they pigs are in. The idea is that outdoor hutches used to be an accepted housing for guinea pigs, like petstore cages but now are an outdated form of housing just like petstore cages.
 

mufasa

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So basically the person this all started about, put what was left of her guinea pigs back out into the her yard as bait, so she could catch the dog in the act and find out who owns it, I assume to reek vengeance upon the dog for being a dog, and incidentally be reimbursed for the livestock she has lost >(

Yeah, my mind is still boggling over that. Reading that she put out 12 more pigs drained away any tiny drop of sympathy I had for her and made me feel even sorrier for her pigs. I doubt a breeder with that many piggies was treating them as anything but baby/money-making machines anyway, but to knowingly place more of them in danger is reprehensible and disgusting.
 

pinky

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[MENTION=22706]traceyennis[/MENTION] The relevance is proper guinea pig care, regardless of which country they are in. They gave several reasons why it's not a good idea - those reasons apply without regard to which country they pigs are in. The idea is that outdoor hutches used to be an accepted housing for guinea pigs, like petstore cages but now are an outdated form of housing just like petstore cages.

Sadly, I think when money or convenience is at stake, many take the path that is most profitable or easy, no matter what the issue is or what's at stake for those affected.
 

Meaghan

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I'm not going to play your game of words. Cutting off any part of an animal so you won't have a cat ruining your furniture is selfish and cruel. Someone elderly can fall or break a hip or have countless things happen to them. My parents are 85 years old. My older sister has dogs and cats, my younger sister has a cat and they're out when my parents are there. Scratching thin skin is a lame excuse.

I have not been playing a "game of words", you are trying to say that I'm saying things that I'm not. I never said that declawing simply for furniture wasn't selfish. My grandmother has broken her hip, but what does that have to do with declawing? And like I said earlier, they live with her, and it was happening on a daily basis. If she was just visiting them, it would be one thing. But she couldn't live with them when they hurt her just doing normal daily things. It was never intentional on the cats' part, but that doesn't change it.

As for it being a lame excuse, it might be for you, and you are entitled to your opinion. But it was a good reason for her, not an excuse. It is a free country, and people are entitled to have differing opinions.
 

traceyennis

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@CavyMama For the most part I agree with you and I am a firm believer of housing pigs indoors but in the UK it is a fairly new concept and not one that people are overly familiar with. It is going to take time to change people's mind and to educate them about using c&c cages and keeping their pigs indoors. I have no problem with members of this site trying to get a person to change their mind about housing a pig outdoors but I think it is terrible when they then insult the person, prejudge them to be bad pet owners and push them to their limit where they then leave the forum. I fail to see what that then accomplishes!
 

pinky

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[MENTION=12813]CavyMama[/MENTION] For the most part I agree with you and I am a firm believer of housing pigs indoors but in the UK it is a fairly new concept and not one that people are overly familiar with. It is going to take time to change people's mind and to educate them about using c&c cages and keeping their pigs indoors. I have no problem with members of this site trying to get a person to change their mind about housing a pig outdoors but I think it is terrible when they then insult the person, prejudge them to be bad pet owners and push them to their limit where they then leave the forum. I fail to see what that then accomplishes!

I think it's very easy to follow what's routine when it's an accepted practice. Debating it, even if people get riled up sometimes, puts all the cards on the table for everyone to discuss. That's often the catalyst to get things changed or enlighten others.
 

madelineelaine

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Almost everyone on this forum is like PETA, because we all have something in common: We want ethical (the best) treatment of animals.

I completely respect and support PETA, as well as proper treatment for animals. I don't know anyone that goes around protesting that we should allow dog fights or animal abuse. I find it funny that people can be fined for animal abuse and neglect, but when it comes to animals like guinea pigs that doesn't seem to matter as much. It's fine, and socially acceptable to give them small cages and no veterinary care. And yet, neglecting a cat is shamed. I think all animals are equal.
 

traceyennis

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I agree and don't see any harm in debating the pros and cons of where best to house a guinea pig but I totally disagree with it then becoming a slanging match and insulting people and claiming they are bad pet owners! All that will then accomplish is for the person to become defensive and no longer interested in listening to valid points about housing pigs indoors!

In the UK we have an organisation called the RSPCA and they work tirelessly against animal cruelty and also re-home animals. They have inspectors who come out to check your property first before they will let you adopt an animal and even they will let someone adopt a guinea pig that will be housed outdoors and so I believe that it's going to be a long slow process getting people to change their minds and that its an issue that needs to be handled carefully and respectfully.
 

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This thread is understandably heated because of the original post -- the needless death of far too many guinea pigs due to outdoor housing and the idiot breeder who let it happen again.

It is impossible not to be outraged at this tragedy. This thread did NOT start out as a quiet discussion of the pros and cons of outdoor housing--we have plenty of those threads on this forum. Let's put the reactions in the context of reality.

And as the original author and out-spoken activist of the new cage size standards that have been adopted AROUND the WORLD, I can tell you with absolute clarity that that change did NOT come about by tip-toeing around the issue with people who ALL had tiny, too small cages. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who was a guinea pig enthusiast and even the 'experts' who you all know and love for very many years FOUGHT me incessantly about my "overstated" requirements. The current minimums were just fine, thank you very much. WHY????????? Because they had kept guinea pigs forever; that was the cage size that THEY had, and they were just fine with it, thank you very much, and shut up.

That was what I dealt with for years. But, I persevered on many forums and on many fronts. I created the C&C cages and slowly, as they were adopted and more and more independent testimonials started to appear in various places, over the years, the TRUTH of what guinea pigs really need for proper care has been adopted everywhere. It took over a DECADE.

However, if I had gone along the advised path of being nicey nicey to not hurt the feelers of those who stubbornly refused to accept the fact that they were not correct in their own caging, then nothing would have changed. "Oh, yes, well, sure, what you are doing is just fine, this is just better." Ho hum -- would have been business as usual.

Now, I'm not saying that we should be rude to people, not at all. But, I'm also not willing to back down from what we know is better for the animals. It is fact, not opinion.

Do I think the folks in the UK who house their pigs outdoors are bad pet owners? I don't know. Some yes, some no, the variations on their real intent, their view of their pets, what they do and how they do it, all factor in if I were going to assess someone personally.

Do I think this breeder is an idiot? Yes. Very very rarely do I think that. But in this case, most definitely. Inexcusable. Stupid. Shameful.

If we have some new members who are so outraged at our reactions on this thread that they need to leave, so be it. As you know, there are several forums that focus on UK members where outdoor housing is not only condoned, it's encouraged. Not everyone is going to be happy or find value in every online community. We don't claim to be the home for everyone. I absolutely do want members to try to be respectful of one another. No question.

But, not to the extent of having to white wash a travesty such as this in order to maintain some status quo.

It's these kinds of things that should serve as a wake up call to those who house outdoors. Instead, when confronted with the fact that this can happen, those who are posting pretty much dig their heels in even more. It's to be expected. It's human nature. HOWEVER, for every person posting on this thread there are many, many more reading it. The points will NOT be lost on everyone. Highlighting it here, regardless of those who may feel persecuted because they feel the need to defend their housing choices, does expose the issue to many and helps enlighten others who we do not know.
 
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