Breeding Anti breeding?

Rhinos_mom · Nov 29, 2012

pinky said:
When you really think about it, all dogs are descendents of wolves.

Interesting little thing I picked up from a documentary I saw on tv, they said there is more studying being done and dogs may not be descendants of wolves. Their reasoning was something like (and sorry this is really foggy in my mind because I saw it so long ago) Dogs have been around as long as humans? or something like that, I guess I should look into this further before I post it but I think, in my own personal opinion, that dogs may not have come from wolves but instead dogs and wolves came from the same ancestor, I don't have proof to back this belief at the moment, but I share the same about humans and monkeys/apes. The whole idea of domestication is interesting. I can see if I can find the documentary I was talking about.

Sorry this is off topic, just thought I would share this because it's kind of an interesting talk in and of itself.

pinky · Nov 29, 2012

Rhinos_mom said:
Interesting little thing I picked up from a documentary I saw on tv, they said there is more studying being done and dogs may not be descendants of wolves. Their reasoning was something like (and sorry this is really foggy in my mind because I saw it so long ago) Dogs have been around as long as humans? or something like that, I guess I should look into this further before I post it but I think, in my own personal opinion, that dogs may not have come from wolves but instead dogs and wolves came from the same ancestor, I don't have proof to back this belief at the moment, but I share the same about humans and monkeys/apes. The whole idea of domestication is interesting. I can see if I can find the documentary I was talking about.

Sorry this is off topic, just thought I would share this because it's kind of an interesting talk in and of itself.

I find it interesting, too. No matter how dogs became what they are today, I guess I was just trying to say that it's human intervention that molded what we currently have from what once was something very different. We're the ones who are making choices to create what we want or feel we need.

Cavylier · Nov 29, 2012

I dislike almost all forms of breeding.

There are way too many animals in shelters to justify any need to create more. There are people who will say "But eventually we will be left with no animals at all if breeding is stopped!".

The key word in that sentence is eventually. Right now there is absolutely no need to breed more animals. Using this logic if we can get even 50% of the breeders to stop breeding, then we can reassess the situation. At this point in time, there are no laws to regulate breeding, no standards of care for the animals and as has been said before - an obscenely large amount of animals in shelters. Maybe if this number reduces we can take a look at the scenario, formulate guidelines and laws and think about breeding differently - but most importantly, now is not the time for that. Now is the time to get that 50% to stop breeding.

Also, just because a breeder gives a home to the dogs that are returned to them, does not make it acceptable to breed. As individuals they may be doing the 'responsible' thing but if they had the capacity to take care of another dog, they should have just adopted one instead of creating more and then having to take them back. In the larger picture it contributes to the problem immensely.

I find it repulsive how people breed for 'traits'. No animal should be judged for its personality like that. Part of the wonderful job of pet ownership is the surprise of discovering your pet's personality and loving it in its own unique way.

In fact it is this misconception that puts more dogs in pounds. People get a certain breed from a breeder because they want a certain personality and expect it to behave the way they want, but when your lap-dog starts acting boisterous and misbehaving they say, "Oh, maybe dog ownership is not for me at all!" and take it to the pound. They expect dogs to be well-behaved without any training because, come on, they're supposed to be, right? I mean, it's in their genes.
If you want a 'quiet dog' go get a stuffed animal - it won't ever do anything wrong.

Also, mixed breeds are usually healthier and are less genetically predisposed to be susceptible to certain illnesses (with the exception of a few very old breeds). I don't see creating another animal which will lead a life of health problems or just a shorter life just because people want it to look and behave a certain way as at all responsible or acceptable.

Even if some breeders look into the genetic aspect, there are very few who actually do (proved by various studies comparing the health and lifespan or pure-bred dogs to mixed breeds) and overall it is just not good enough to justify the whole practice of breeding.

doganddisc · Dec 1, 2012

Thankfully, @Cavylier, that isn't the way the world works. I for one am thankfully that breeders dedicate their time and energy into selectively breeding for certain traits. It isn't about "personality". Service dogs, police dogs, hunting dogs, herding dogs, sled dogs, carting dogs, bomb sniffing dogs, etc. etc. are all selected on physical and mental characteristics.

madelineelaine · Dec 1, 2012

The topic of this thread may have changed but I want to add something :

To the post about keeping dog breeds "pure".

By that logic, we should breed humans 'pure' too, and not have interracial children.

Indians breed with Indians, polish with polish etc.

PigPandemonium · Dec 1, 2012

doganddisc said:
Thankfully, @Cavylier , that isn't the way the world works. I for one am thankfully that breeders dedicate their time and energy into selectively breeding for certain traits. It isn't about "personality". Service dogs, police dogs, hunting dogs, herding dogs, sled dogs, carting dogs, bomb sniffing dogs, etc. etc. are all selected on physical and mental characteristics.

My service dog is from a horrible breeder (She was a present) Who never bred for anything other to be cute at all. She's an amazing service dog, and I know many people who have rescues and unkown mixed breeds as service dogs and such that are better than some other purebred service dogs from good breeders. And are able to work longer. A lot of it has to do with the training, food, and raising, very little other than health has to do with breeding.

asnnbrg · Dec 1, 2012

madelineelaine said:
The topic of this thread may have changed but I want to add something :

To the post about keeping dog breeds "pure".

By that logic, we should breed humans 'pure' too, and not have interracial children.

Indians breed with Indians, polish with polish etc.

Race is a purely social construct. There is no biological basis for race.

MrWhistles · Dec 1, 2012

PigPandemonium said:
A lot of it has to do with the training, food, and raising, very little other than health has to do with breeding.

So you're saying a pup from parents who died from cancer(or any other genetic disease) should be a service dog?
People who have to rely on service dogs need these dogs to be carefully bred. They don't want to find out 1 day that their service dog is now suffering from a condition that was likely spread from the poor breeding done to create them.

PigPandemonium · Dec 1, 2012

Mr. Whistles, please read my post more clearly, I said nothing like that. I said the breeding doesn't have much to do with anything other than health, other than that it's mostly up to correct training, food, ect. A dog that comes from an amazing breeder can be agressive and crazy if noy trained right, just like a dog from a rescue with horrible, crazy, agressive parents can be thw sweetest thing in the world if trained correctly, ect. I know many service dog organizations that adopt from shelters, and have never had problems with random health problems like cancers poping up when the dog is still young. Personally I would take that any day of the week over adding to the over flowing population. I highly need a service dog to even do simple things such as walk out onto the porch or go to the market to pick up a gallon of milk. When Bella gets near retireing, I will be adopting a dog that would otherwise be put down just as most owner trains I know.

doganddisc · Dec 1, 2012

PigPandemonium said:
Mr. Whistles, please read my post more clearly, I said nothing like that. I said the breeding doesn't have much to do with anything other than health, other than that it's mostly up to correct training, food, ect.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Selective breeding is not only about health- it is about size, temperament ("aggressive" and "not aggressive" are not the only types of temperament), instinct, physical attributes like coat type, length, ear size, nose sensitivity, etc. On and on and on.

Why do you think police primarily use German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois for police work? Or stockdog handlers use Border Collies? Or service dog organizations prefer Labs and Golden Retrievers? Or people who use mobility service dogs use St. Bernards, Great Danes, and Mastiffs?

Show me a shih tzu who can handle a flock of 500 sheep and maybe we'll talk about your theories on how breeding is unnecessary.

A dog that comes from an amazing breeder can be agressive and crazy if noy trained right, just like a dog from a rescue with horrible, crazy, agressive parents can be thw sweetest thing in the world if trained correctly, ect.

Wrong again. Aggression can be either inherited or learned. Learned aggression tends to be fear based where inherited aggression tends to be what we ordinarily think of as aggression. Think Pit Bulls- some lines are known for their dog aggression because dog aggression has been bred into them as a fighting breed.

I know many service dog organizations that adopt from shelters, and have never had problems with random health problems like cancers poping up when the dog is still young.

When the dog is still young- operative term. But most SD handlers work with their dogs until the dog is about ten years of age. There are many genetic disorders that can be prevented with a simple health test- if you get your SD from a shelter, you have no guarantee that the two+ years of training you put into your dog will be worth it in the end when, three years in, the dog develops a health issue that could have been prevented with selective breeding.

PigPandemonium · Dec 2, 2012

(Sorry for any spelling mistakes my computer is being stupid)

Maybe I'm not explaining it well. What I'm trying to say is that a Rottweiler puppy that comes from an amazing breeder VS a Rottweiler puppy that comes from a rescue, there will most likely not be a huge world of difference in temperment, (Depending on the parents and what not) (I'm not talking at all about health, coat, size, ect, I don't know how that came up) Though what makes the biggest change in training and manners and such is training. Meaning if I wanted a dog with amazing manners and training, I'd rather get a rescue dog that lived with a good trainer rather than a dog from an amazing breeder who lives with a horrible trainer.

Honest to goodness if I had access to a herd of sheep I could show you that! lol Well, not exactly with a Shih-Tzu but with half Shih-Tzu, Half Pug.

pinky · Dec 2, 2012

doganddisc said:
You couldn't be more wrong about this. Selective breeding is not only about health- it is about size, temperament ("aggressive" and "not aggressive" are not the only types of temperament), instinct, physical attributes like coat type, length, ear size, nose sensitivity, etc. On and on and on.

Why do you think police primarily use German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois for police work? Or stockdog handlers use Border Collies? Or service dog organizations prefer Labs and Golden Retrievers? Or people who use mobility service dogs use St. Bernards, Great Danes, and Mastiffs?

Show me a shih tzu who can handle a flock of 500 sheep and maybe we'll talk about your theories on how breeding is unnecessary.

Wrong again. Aggression can be either inherited or learned. Learned aggression tends to be fear based where inherited aggression tends to be what we ordinarily think of as aggression. Think Pit Bulls- some lines are known for their dog aggression because dog aggression has been bred into them as a fighting breed.

When the dog is still young- operative term. But most SD handlers work with their dogs until the dog is about ten years of age. There are many genetic disorders that can be prevented with a simple health test- if you get your SD from a shelter, you have no guarantee that the two+ years of training you put into your dog will be worth it in the end when, three years in, the dog develops a health issue that could have been prevented with selective breeding.

I agree that dog breeds have different specialized characteristics but I do also believe that those traits can be found in mixed breeds, as well. I recently watched a program about selecting a dog for the Broadway show "Annie." Of course, "Sandy" is meant to be a mixed breed dog so that's what they looked for. The trainer selected dogs solely from shelters, based on characteristics they were looking for. It was probably very time consuming, but they were able to find exactly what they were looking for. I will point out, that one dog suffered from a hip problem but the blessing in disguise was that they were able to get that dog the treatment it needed and a good home. I guess my point is, there are a lot of animals with the traits that could probably do most tasks required of them. Networking and time are what it would take to find that good match. There would probably an expense added in the search, too, but when you consider what it costs for a pure bred dog, the costs associated with finding a shelter dog would probably be less. Whether people want to do that is another story so I can understand how buying a dog from a breeder could be an easier resolution.

doganddisc · Dec 4, 2012

PigPandemonium said:
My service dog is from a horrible breeder (She was a present) Who never bred for anything other to be cute at all. She's an amazing service dog, and I know many people who have rescues and unkown mixed breeds as service dogs and such that are better than some other purebred service dogs from good breeders. And are able to work longer. A lot of it has to do with the training, food, and raising, very little other than health has to do with breeding.

Keep in mind that every dog came from somewhere- even the dogs from the "horrible breeder" could have come from a good breeder at one point. It took generations of selective breeding to get dogs to where they are at in terms of temperament and physical features.

My service dog came from a shelter. He is NOT perfect as a SD and would never make it as a program dog, but he IS perfect for me. To each their own.

@pinky I agree that dog breeds have different specialized characteristics but I do also believe that those traits can be found in mixed breeds, as well. I recently watched a program about selecting a dog for the Broadway show "Annie." Of course, "Sandy" is meant to be a mixed breed dog so that's what they looked for. The trainer selected dogs solely from shelters, based on characteristics they were looking for. It was probably very time consuming, but they were able to find exactly what they were looking for. I will point out, that one dog suffered from a hip problem but the blessing in disguise was that they were able to get that dog the treatment it needed and a good home. I guess my point is, there are a lot of animals with the traits that could probably do most tasks required of them. Networking and time are what it would take to find that good match. There would probably an expense added in the search, too, but when you consider what it costs for a pure bred dog, the costs associated with finding a shelter dog would probably be less. Whether people want to do that is another story so I can understand how buying a dog from a breeder could be an easier resolution.

Training a dog to perform on stage and training a dog to herd a flock of sheep are two completely different things. Herding is a modified prey drive and the prey drive is instinct. The herding instinct has been brought to us by selective breeding for hundreds of years. Performing on stage just requires a dog with a lot of nerve.

MrWhistles · Dec 4, 2012

PigPandemonium said:
Honest to goodness if I had access to a herd of sheep I could show you that! lol Well, not exactly with a Shih-Tzu but with half Shih-Tzu, Half Pug.

I highly doubt that. Ive had experiences with both breeds. And neither can herd anything as well as a herding dog.

pinky · Dec 4, 2012

doganddisc said:
Keep in mind that every dog came from somewhere- even the dogs from the "horrible breeder" could have come from a good breeder at one point. It took generations of selective breeding to get dogs to where they are at in terms of temperament and physical features.

My service dog came from a shelter. He is NOT perfect as a SD and would never make it as a program dog, but he IS perfect for me. To each their own.

Training a dog to perform on stage and training a dog to herd a flock of sheep are two completely different things. Herding is a modified prey drive and the prey drive is instinct. The herding instinct has been brought to us by selective breeding for hundreds of years. Performing on stage just requires a dog with a lot of nerve.

I wasn't suggesting those dogs could herd. They were looking for intelligent dogs that could learn quickly, although there certainly are dogs with strong herd drives in shelters and rescues, too. I was just trying to make the point that there are all sorts of dogs with different characteristics and traits (such as herding) that could probably be placed if people sought them out. It would probably just take a lot of time and effort. A former neighbor of mine had a Australian shepherd mix that had a really strong herd drive. It would nearly knock me off my feet when it would push my legs. I'll bet that dog would have made a great herding dog.

Carissa6729 · Dec 4, 2012

I have nothing against shelter dogs, my new puppy is a rescue, nor do I have anything against RESPONSIBLE breeders. Responsible being the keyword. Now I now that opinions differ on what that means or if there is even such a thing, but to me a "responsible" breeder would be; breeding to better the lines of the breed whether in longevity of life, health in general, temperment, etc, thoroughly researching all the genetics and pedigrees and selectively choosing when and with who to breed with, having a mentor and a support system in the breed community to help with their breeding program, thoroughly building a relationship with the potential buyers through months, possibly years of communication and having a relationship after the dog is purchased to always have open lines of communication for the remainder of the dogs years with a guarantee the dog is to be returned if the said owner no longer can care for it. That isn't everything I believe in but just a summary of some few important things in my opinion.

The reason why and I will be going to an experienced breeder for my son's dog is pretty simple. I want to know the lineage of my puppy, I want to know that it's been bred to be the best it can be and purposely bred to avoid having "defects" like heart, hip, eye, elbow problems or at least to the best of their ability in that aspect. My puppy will be checked by a board certified cardiologist before being sent home so there is no issues with congenital heart issues. I know what my puppy is being fed, what it's shots records are, what it's been exposed too, what the family it came from is like, if and how he was exposed to children, how it's been socialized and have it specially socialized in certain ways before I acquire it, how healthy it was when it was born, if there was any issues with the litter or mother when they were born, if any sickness has had to be overcome, potty training can be started along with basic commands, socialization to other animals (cats, other dogs, etc) and most importantly the breeders know the personalities of the puppies since birth and can help to decide which is the best for our family and our needs. I will be getting an extra large breed dog and there is many challenges alone with having a large dog, that I need to reduce the health problems and I need that certainty before investing thousands into his dog and training let alone.

With a shelter puppy/dog, you have the unknown which is what I don't want in my son's service dog. You don't know how many vaccines it's been given, you don't know if it's been abused, mistreated, fed cat food all it's life which could cause serious problems, you don't know the parents lineage, you don't know if it has a congenital heart defect and could pass away before 6 months, you don't know what diseases that could have been avoided with proper breeding practices your dog is susceptible, you don't know for sure it's personality in many cases unless you get a great rescue who gets to know their animals but even then it's usually such a short period. There is so many unknowns that I can't take with his service dog that I can't take the chance with a rescued dog. They COULD be great but then again they COULD not be, you just don't know and I would not subject the dogs and my family to a series of cycling through animals till we found the right one, even through fosters, my son with his disabilities would not understand.

Now my Stormy, my rescued pup, is absolutely amazing for a puppy. I wouldn't trade her for anything and there is definitely a place in our home for her for many years hopefully. She COULD possibly have what it takes to be his service dog, but I'm not willing to take the chance of putting in years of specialized training on a "maybe". So she will be a great emotional support for our family, a great companion and part of our family and know the love and spoiling that the rest of our rescued animals receive.

I believe firmly in rescuing when you can but also believe there is a place for responsible breeding as well. If you breed just because they make cute "x-doodle" dogs or "x-weenie" or you think hey, let's give her a litter before spaying her, then there is absolutely NO place in the world of breeding for you.

pinky · Dec 4, 2012

Carissa6729 said:
I have nothing against shelter dogs, my new puppy is a rescue, nor do I have anything against RESPONSIBLE breeders. Responsible being the keyword. Now I now that opinions differ on what that means or if there is even such a thing, but to me a "responsible" breeder would be; breeding to better the lines of the breed whether in longevity of life, health in general, temperment, etc, thoroughly researching all the genetics and pedigrees and selectively choosing when and with who to breed with, having a mentor and a support system in the breed community to help with their breeding program, thoroughly building a relationship with the potential buyers through months, possibly years of communication and having a relationship after the dog is purchased to always have open lines of communication for the remainder of the dogs years with a guarantee the dog is to be returned if the said owner no longer can care for it. That isn't everything I believe in but just a summary of some few important things in my opinion.

The reason why and I will be going to an experienced breeder for my son's dog is pretty simple. I want to know the lineage of my puppy, I want to know that it's been bred to be the best it can be and purposely bred to avoid having "defects" like heart, hip, eye, elbow problems or at least to the best of their ability in that aspect. My puppy will be checked by a board certified cardiologist before being sent home so there is no issues with congenital heart issues. I know what my puppy is being fed, what it's shots records are, what it's been exposed too, what the family it came from is like, if and how he was exposed to children, how it's been socialized and have it specially socialized in certain ways before I acquire it, how healthy it was when it was born, if there was any issues with the litter or mother when they were born, if any sickness has had to be overcome, potty training can be started along with basic commands, socialization to other animals (cats, other dogs, etc) and most importantly the breeders know the personalities of the puppies since birth and can help to decide which is the best for our family and our needs. I will be getting an extra large breed dog and there is many challenges alone with having a large dog, that I need to reduce the health problems and I need that certainty before investing thousands into his dog and training let alone.

With a shelter puppy/dog, you have the unknown which is what I don't want in my son's service dog. You don't know how many vaccines it's been given, you don't know if it's been abused, mistreated, fed cat food all it's life which could cause serious problems, you don't know the parents lineage, you don't know if it has a congenital heart defect and could pass away before 6 months, you don't know what diseases that could have been avoided with proper breeding practices your dog is susceptible, you don't know for sure it's personality in many cases unless you get a great rescue who gets to know their animals but even then it's usually such a short period. There is so many unknowns that I can't take with his service dog that I can't take the chance with a rescued dog. They COULD be great but then again they COULD not be, you just don't know and I would not subject the dogs and my family to a series of cycling through animals till we found the right one, even through fosters, my son with his disabilities would not understand.

Now my Stormy, my rescued pup, is absolutely amazing for a puppy. I wouldn't trade her for anything and there is definitely a place in our home for her for many years hopefully. She COULD possibly have what it takes to be his service dog, but I'm not willing to take the chance of putting in years of specialized training on a "maybe". So she will be a great emotional support for our family, a great companion and part of our family and know the love and spoiling that the rest of our rescued animals receive.

I believe firmly in rescuing when you can but also believe there is a place for responsible breeding as well. If you breed just because they make cute "x-doodle" dogs or "x-weenie" or you think hey, let's give her a litter before spaying her, then there is absolutely NO place in the world of breeding for you.

You raise an interesting point when you said there is absolutely NO place in the world for breeding for those who want to breed to make cute dogs. It's an "opinion" that's probably shared by a lot of people, but not everyone. It raises the point that different people will find breeding to be legitimate when animals are bred for a characteristic they personally find worthwhile. It could be the size of the dog, temperament, instinct to perform a task, looks or whatever. What's important to one person will not necessarily matter to another. For that reason, breeding is an issue that people will never be in agreement on.

Carissa6729 · Dec 4, 2012

pinky said:
You raise an interesting point when you said there is absolutely NO place in the world for breeding for those who want to breed to make cute dogs. It's an "opinion" that's probably shared by a lot of people, but not everyone. It raises the point that different people will find breeding to be legitimate when animals are bred for a characteristic they personally find worthwhile. It could be the size of the dog, temperament, instinct to perform a task, looks or whatever. What's important to one person will not necessarily matter to another. For that reason, breeding is an issue that people will never be in agreement on.

Your very much right, it's why we have people who breed "just once, before she's spayed" because it was important to THEM. It's also why we have a generation of "doodle" dogs who are NOT what their owners thought they would be (Hypoallergenic, smart, etc) and have a bunch of these dogs out there that have numerous health issues and horrible temperaments. Just like people who breed Pit Bulls and other breeds that are known for their "aggressiveness". The RESPONSIBLE breeders would NEVER condone or help breed the irrational, aggressive and unpredictable dogs that have been bred from these breeds and now have to fight hard to get their breed back to what it was supposed to be, a loving caring family dog.

I think people need to take a very hard look at why THEY want to breed, or support a breeder and if there isn't a multitude of legitimate reasons that can benefit more then just that person to make them happy then the idea needs to be reconsidered. Unfortunately, that's just my opinion and like you said ,not everybody will agree. Some people think breeding to get a "hypoallergenic" dog is useful somehow, without taking any consideration into any other health or temperament aspect of it.

PigPandemonium · Dec 4, 2012

Yes, there isn't even such thing as a hypoallergenic dog, so there is absolutely no point in breed to get one. (broken link removed)

Neo11 · Feb 26, 2013

Its funny i was just told this is an anti breeding site hmm one has to be considered when breeding, but for an example here where i live there are in huge demand i paid the same amount for my 2 piggy´s as a normal weekly salary then i don't see anything wrong in having a litter. I am not into breeding them big time its not a money thing for me, but i do pity all those that would love to have a piggy but has no chance to effort one.
We don't have any piggy´s that are in need of rescue here. So please consider location before taking a stand on if they should be breed or not.

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Breeding Anti breeding?

Rhinos_mom

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pinky

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Cavylier

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doganddisc

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madelineelaine

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PigPandemonium

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asnnbrg

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MrWhistles

Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner

PigPandemonium

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doganddisc

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PigPandemonium

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pinky

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doganddisc

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MrWhistles

Cavy Star, Photo Contest Winner

pinky

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Carissa6729

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pinky

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Carissa6729

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PigPandemonium

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Neo11

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