Sick Weight loss, slight change in energy/eating habits. Vet is not sure what it is.

ginipigsinspace · Jun 12, 2016

Hi all,

My boar Han suddenly dropped weight over the last week or two. Once I noticed, I started weighting daily. At first I didn't worry too much because he seems to fluctuate more than my other pig. However, after he got down past 100g (he has previously dropped 60-80g and bounced back within a day or two) I started to really worry.

Note: he is usually about 1040g (although during regular weighings that has fluctuated between 1020g and 1080g), when I started to be concerned he was around 950g, at vet he was just under 900g.

He also had a few slight shifts in his behavior:

1) He seems to spend more time chilling in or near the hay bin. He has never been a particularly active pig (unlike my other one who will do zoomie laps at least once a day), but he used to rush to the front of the cage at any indication of food preparation, and would sometime stalk around antagonizing his casemate. I wouldn't call it "lethargic" exactly, but definitely less active.

2) He is less enthusiastic about food. He still eats and poops (I have fed him out of the cage several times just to check), but maybe less? Definitely with less vigor. He seems to eat the things he likes best (e.g. the tender parts of the lettuce, peppers, etc), but not resort to the other stuff (e.g. the spine of the lettuce) because he is hungry.

I did some research when I noticed the change, and thought it sounded like an URI--weight loss, some minor crusty bits around his eyes--but the vet did not find any indication of a URI in the initial check-up (stethoscope, looking at his mouth/ears/nose). Although she did seem a little less knowledgable about guinea pigs than the last person we saw at that office (it is definitely exotic/cavy savvy and the one recommended by the rescue where I adopted them); for example, she tried to give him a treat, which included freeze-dried bits of stuff--maybe a bunny treat? Definitely not a GP treat.

Anyway, I ended up paying to get X-rays and blood work. The X-rays did not show anything that would suggest bad health (he had clear lungs, no indication of bladder stones, signs of good digestion). They said his teeth looked fine. The blood work has not been done yet because evidently he has small veins and there is only one nurse who is able to take it from a major artery? She is in on Wednesday, so we will be back Wednesday.

In the mean time, they sent him home with some antibiotics and, upon my request, some critical care. Although he is eating, based on the weight loss I assume he is not eating as much, so I figured the CC could help to supplement his diet and help him gain back the weight.

I will mention, that he is probably about 4 years old, and the X-ray did show some signs of arthritis in his back and hips. However, considering the quick change in his behavior, I don't think it's just him slowing down due to old age.

Right now I am feeling a little unsure about what to do next. We will take him back to get blood drawn on Wednesday, and maybe that will show something, but what if it doesn't? What else can I do? Is there anything else I should be doing until then? Any ideas of what could be wrong?

Thanks!

bpatters · Jun 12, 2016

I'm sorry he's sick.

One thing first. Guinea pigs don't vary in weight by 100 grams a day. You need to weigh at the same time every day, preferably before breakfast. They'll be at their lowest weight then, and it's the most stable one to compare.

Another thing. You can't compare weights between your scale and the vet's unless you know what the differences are. At about 1000 grams, my scale is 50 grams heavier than my vets. You can check that out by weighing your pig at home immediately before a vet visit, and then as soon as possible after you get there. There may be a small difference because the pig has peed and pooped on the way to the vet, but it won't more than a few grams at most.

If it were me, I'd refuse blood work until they'd exhausted everything else and his life was in danger. The only reasonable way to get blood from a guinea pig is a stick in the jugular vein of the neck. If that goes wrong, you've got a medical emergency on your hands. To me, the knowledge gained from a blood draw for a non-life-threatening illness just isn't worth it.

If this isn't a cavy savvy vet, then I wouldn't be too sure that his teeth are fine. They can't tell from an oral exam unless they prop the mouth open, and that usually requires mild anesthesia. And if they didn't do side x-rays of the head, they have no way of knowing whether he's got elongated roots or a jaw abscess. Also, even some exotic vets don't know anything about rodent dentistry, so I certainly wouldn't take the word of a non-exotic vet unless they had extensive experience with guinea pigs. The fact that he's eating only soft stuff points to a tooth problem, though it's not a certainty.

I'd take him back, but not to get his blood drawn. And I'd probably ask for another opinion from another vet.

You need to be weighing him regularly so you can catch any problems quickly. Right now, weigh him daily. Since he's not eating much, I'd supplement him with some Critical Care. If you get the plain variety, he may eat it on his own -- most pigs seem to like it. But if not, syringe it to him, whether he likes to be hand-fed or not. See https://www.guinealynx.info/handfeeding.html for how to do that.

Good luck, and let us know how you get along.

ginipigsinspace · Jun 12, 2016

Thanks @bpatters

Just to clarify a few things: None of those fluctuations were across one day. There have been a few times I noticed a dip between weighings, got worried, went to the vet, found out nothing was wrong, and then saw him come back up again over a few days. This time, I noticed he had gone down about a week ago, was weighing daily, and when it got to about 100g without any sign of increase, I went to the vet the next day. I will definitely take your advice and do weighings at a more constant time of the day each week, and thank you for mentioning the discrepancy between the vet scale and my home scale. I will check that next time.

Also, this is a cavy-savvy exotic animal hospital (Long Beach Animal Hospital), and was recommended by the rescue I used to adopt my boys. I am a little skeptical of this one vet because of the treat thing, but previous visits I have had really great, clearly knowledgable vets. Perhaps I will try to figure out who I met with last time and ask for him specifically.

They did do X-rays of him on his side and on his back, so I thought they looked at the teeth. Is there a different close-up X-ray that is used for teeth only? I was thinking it could be teeth because he is avoiding the lettuce spines, but he is eating peppers and pellets without difficulty. But I will do a search and see if I can find a vet with more GP dentistry experience.

That said, thank you very much for your recommendation about the blood work. I am glad they were unable to do it last night. It seemed weird that only one person at the whole clinic would be able to do it. I will look into getting a second opinion on his teeth first.

Thank you again for your advice.

pigmommy89 · Jun 12, 2016

My vet draws blood from the saphenous vein in the rear leg. He shaves the area and wraps it in a warm washcloth for a few minutes to help him see the vein. He uses a very tiny gauge needle. I've seen him do it twice, and he got it both times in one try.

lizpow · Jun 12, 2016

I'm not as aware of all ups thought she would be able to gain weight back and get completely healthy again (but she did) I syring fed water to her and critical care when she couldn't eat or drink. So as you're finding the solution measure out how much he is eating AND drinking. Hazel wouldn't have made it through her cource of treatment if she hadn't gotten force fed water. And she got IV fluid to start while we were figuring out what was wrong.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

ginipigsinspace · Jun 25, 2016

Just a little update: I took the advice of most of you and got a second opinion. I specifically requested an appointment with the vet who I saw several LA GP owners recommend. When I called, the receptionist got huffy, claiming that all of their vets can see GPs and this one vet is only considered an expert because he did a presentation once. I insisted, and I am so glad I did!!!! He was clearly so much more knowledgable about and comfortable with GPs (he insisted on taking the photo below when Han was giving me a "hug"). He was able to reassure me that Han was actually doing better, and ended up prescribing him heart medication (I guess heart conditions can sometimes mimic URI symptoms). While I was waiting for them to prep his prescription, I looked up GP heart disease, because I was surprised that he would make that call (Han didn't hoot). Turns out this guy is listed by GL as one of the foremost GP cardiologists!! And he did his final project for Vet school on GPs. Good thing I didn't listen to that receptionist.

Anyway, Han seems to be doing much better. He has more energy and is gaining weight slowly. Thank you all for advising me against the blood tests and pushing me to see another vet.

bpatters · Jun 25, 2016

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you found a good vet. Would you mind cloning him and sending a couple of hundred of him around the country?

ginipigsinspace · Jul 6, 2016

So Han seems to be doing much better. He has more energy and appears to be eating/pooping normally. He actually LOVES his heart meds, and gets really excited when I shake up the bottle before giving him his dose (probably that apple flavor!). However, I have a question about his weight.

At this point, it seems to have stabilized (I've been weighing every day and it has stayed constant for the past week), but in total he probably lost about 200-240 grams (he's at 840-50 from 1050-80). I know I have read that it is really hard for adult pigs to gain weight, but is it ok for him to stay at this weight as long as he isn't losing? Or should I be trying to work on helping him gain weight? I do still have some critical care, and could supplement that into his diet, but he wasn't really a fan of it, so I would have to force feed.

Thoughts? Reccomendations?

bpatters · Jul 6, 2016

I wouldn't worry about his weight. He may slowly gain some over a period of weeks or months, or maybe not. I don't think it would be worth the stress it would cause him.

ginipigsinspace · Jul 6, 2016

Thanks @bpatters ! Please enjoy this picture of Han napping while I work at my desk.

Rywen · Jul 6, 2016

Han looks so comfy, I'm really glad to hear he's feeling better!

ginipigsinspace · Jul 23, 2016

Well, it seems like Han's health saga continues. He has started coughing like he ate too fast and has something stuck in his throat, but with more frequency than before. I am planning on taking him back in to the vet, but wanted to get thoughts on whether this is actually just something more permanently stuck in his throat or if he might be coughing like that for some other reason. It really does sound exactly like when he eats too fast, and it does often accompany him eating or having recently eaten (because, you know, he is constantly eating) but is happening many times a day. I had him out the other day for lap time and was giving him a baby carrot, which he was stretching his neck up and out to grab, and every time he did that he coughed.

ginipigsinspace · Jul 24, 2016

He was coughing more today and his breathing seemed a little labored so I tried to get an appointment for this day instead of tomorrow. Unfortunately they were booked so they pointed me to the emergency vet, which is where we are now, Unfortunately, the vet admits she doesn't have much GP experience, but is recommending oxygen (maybe all night?) and X-rays to see if he actually has a URI this time. Does that sound like a normal treatment plan?

ginipigsinspace · Jul 25, 2016

Well, the regular vet looked at the ER X-rays and thinks he has pneumonia and congestive heart failure. They are planning on keeping him in oxygen and assisted feeding for 24 hrs. I hate the idea of leaving him at the vet, all alone. However, it doesn't sound like he has much chance at home. Anyone have a pig recover from something like this? Am I doing the right thing by keeping him alive? At what point is it kinder to euthanize him?

bpatters · Jul 25, 2016

How old is he?

If he's young, I wouldn't consider euthanasia at this point with what you've said so far. They can give him an antibiotic, and a diuretic to get rid of some of the fluid.

ginipigsinspace · Jul 25, 2016

He is around 4 y/o. I definitely would only want to go that route if it was cruel to keep him alive. The vet just said "the prognosis isn't good" so I wasn't sure if he was in pain or uncomfortable to a point that it is unfair to put him through treatment. But it sounds like you think he is not near that point

bpatters · Jul 25, 2016

Many vets have no idea about treating heart disease in guinea pigs, even exotic vets. There's some good information here: https://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html.

I'd ask the vet to read up on it and see if s/he is willing to try some heart meds.

ginipigsinspace · Jul 25, 2016

@bpatters Actually if you look back at the thread, he had already been prescribed heart medications a little over a month ago by Dr. Ridgeway (the second doctor listed in that page you linked). Han had seemed to improve significantly on the medication, until a few days ago when he started dropping weight again and the coughing that I had assumed was because he was eating too fast became more frequent.

ginipigsinspace · Jul 25, 2016

I should also mention, the vet he met with today was not Dr. Ridgeway, because he wasn't available until later today and Han seemed to be going downhill. However, Dr. Ridgeway was at the clinic and consulted with her in making a diagnosis and determining treatment.

bpatters · Jul 25, 2016

Heart medications often have to be tweaked every few weeks. I don't know as much about them as I'd like to, but I do know that people with heart pigs are pretty continuously going up or down on the meds, depending on the symptoms.

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Sick Weight loss, slight change in energy/eating habits. Vet is not sure what it is.

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