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Weight Weight and Diet questions

soopermum62

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Before I joined the forum I didn't realize how important certain things were. Yes, I have stated I was in training to be a vet tech and did not finish. I also went back through my school books and realized every thing I learned about diet and nutrition and housing was all wrong. In fact, my book states the "complete packaged foods for the specific animal supplies all its daily needs"..... Well.... come to find out, not true..... I did know NOT to feed Iceburg lettuce and They had been on a steady diet of Romaine and baby carrots as their veggies. I did switch Flower from Alfalfa to Timothy at about 6 months of age. Okay water over the dam...

Things have changed drastically.

Now, Flower is about 16 months old and Daisy is about 5ish months old (she might be a bit younger/older)


I upgraded to a C & C cage and fleece a few days before Christmas from the store bought rabbit cage & shavings that I had for them.

I switched from bulk (Kaytee) pellet to bulk Oxbox pellets 3 weeks ago. (my pet store started carrying them YAY!)

I started varying their lettuce (spring mix and green & red leaf lettuce, spinach) and added in things like bell peppers, Cilantro, Parsley, Dandelion greens, celery,Tomatoes (a big hit) tried tangerines (Cuties), Navel Orange, apple slices, blueberries. I had moved back to alfalfa, because of Daisy's age. (extra Calcium) (Allergies got to much to handle so back to Timothy and trying to get them to eat Orchard grass)

If you noticed I have stuck to the higher end Calcium content veggies due to Daisy's age. I do get occasional white stains, and I know this isn't desirable.

Weights below.
Flower
1/10/13 1275 gm time weighed 8:30am right after morning feeding of veggies (I wonder how much of this threw her weigh in off)
1/17/13 1236 gm time weighed 8:30 pm.
1/24/13 1222 gm time weighed 1:20 pm.

This is a net loss of 53 grams.

She is eating well, Active, Poos look great, clear eyes and no mucus from nose. She actually scrambling up and down the ramp better. (she isn't as noisy about it!) and doesn't sit at the bottom and "think about it" for a while before going up.


Daisy on the other hand....
1/10/13 897 gm time weighed 8:30am right after morning feeding of veggies (I wonder how much of this threw her weigh in off too)
1/17/13 919 gm time weighed 8:30 pm.
1/24/13 920 gm time weighed 1:20 pm.

She is also very active, and she has never had an issue running up and down the ramp. She is the more adventurous of the two. I have seen her pick on Flower to get out of the way to go up the ramp.
I have heard her sneeze/cough, but when I check her, I have not found any mucus or crusties etc. it is usually after playing with the water bottle or if the pellet dish had crumbs in it.

They are fed together.
They get 1/2 cup of pellets total a day. I will throw in a bit more if the dish is all dust- (I have a tough time with hubby... He loves them too much in the food dept. LOL)
They get a cup total of veggies in the AM and the same in the evening. I will give them spring mix & other veggies at one feeding and romaine & veggies at the other feeding.
Fruits are a twice a week treat. then only like 1 section of orange, or 2 blueberries, or 1 slice of apple etc each.

Now for the questions.
I am having trouble with the ratios I am not sure where I should be aiming with Calcium ratio for these two because of Daisy's (age?). Should I ignore the white stains for another month or so until Daisy is definitely over 6 months of age?

How many grape/cherry tomatoes can they have a day? (these are a huge hit with them).

I am thinking that Flower's weight loss is due to increased activity and better diet. Should I be concerned at this point?

Any suggestions, tips, pointers.

Thanks in advance.
 

MissJean

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I can only give my two cents on part of your questions.

Firstly, one of my pigs could be fed nothing but green leaf lettuce(no pellets) and still get white stains. I experimented with his diet so much and have just come to the conclusion that he will have white spots no matter what. My goal turned into reducing the amount of white spots and just making sure they were never gritty. I've come to believe a bit of white staining is not a huge deal as long as it's powdery.

I'm not sure if you should ignore the white spots altogether because of her age, but I thought I'd share regardless.

As for the cherry/grape tomatos, one per pig a day. If you notice lots of dented or soft poop then you can adjust accordingly. I often just cut one cherry tomato in half for two pigs.
 

Iklepink

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Based on different times of day weighing my pigs can very by up to 70g and if its done before or after feeding. Try to weigh at the same time every week.
 

YourSoJelly

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That kind of shocks me that a vet book would be off. How old was that book?
 

MissJean

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That kind of shocks me that a vet book would be off. How old was that book?

It doesn't shock me that a vet book would be off in certain areas. When it comes to a dog's diet, Purina actually sponsors and provides information about it in their schooling. It's incredibly bias garbage. Then everyone goes and thinks their dog needs whole grains and vegetables to be healthy. Because, you know, you see wolves eating so much vegetation in the wild.

Just like doctors, vets also don't agree with each other. Some prefer to be stubborn and trust old research material. That's why I'd never blindly trust a vet without hearing other sides to things.
 

soopermum62

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@YourSoJelly It actually doesn't shock me a bit. I have seen the same thing a number of times. It happened to me also when I was in High School and Voc ED. I learned how to do everything by hand and the technology switched to computers within a year or so of my being out of school. Schools don't always keep up with the newest technology/research. I took the vet courses less than 7 years ago.

[MENTION=25398]Iklepink[/MENTION] Thanks, I'll be more consistent on the times I weigh and see if that makes a difference.
 

YourSoJelly

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Because, you know, you see wolves eating so much vegetation in the wild.

Yeah! Totally! Psht, I mean, I go out to my back yard and throw the wolves some carrots, apples, peppers, cilantro, and parsley! Dont you? ...NOT...
 

bpatters

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I'd feed them a diet tailored to the older pig, and take the young one out a couple of times a day for a high-calcium veggie like parsley. She's near enough to the cut-off age for an adult diet that an extra veggie should take care of what she needs.

Weighing them at the same time of day before you feed them will give you more accurate weights.

Things you can try to see if you can reduce the calcium stains (which I do NOT believe are harmless if they're only powder, as I just paid several hundred dollars for stone surgery for a pig who had only white powder, and not much of it) are to cut back on parsley, cilantro, and romaine lettuce. I've had to take mine off pellets entirely to get rid of the white stains, and am now experimenting to see which foods cause them. Too much lettuce will do it, and I'm afraid that corn husks and/or silks will also. These particular foods may not affect your pigs, as they're all different, but you can do an elimination diet to see what the problem is.

Mine eat several grape tomatoes a day, and haven't had any problems. And you have nothing to worry about with the weights. Just continue to weigh weekly to make sure they're not on a downward trend.

@YourSoJelly , vet books are often based on outdated information. They're costly to revise, there isn't much of a market for them, and unless something is egregiously wrong, it often doesn't get fixed from one edition to the other. I'm not at all surprised that the nutrition info is out of date.
 

YourSoJelly

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Jeeze...what a shame! I want to be a vet but now I think I will re-write a proper book first! :sarcastic
 

soopermum62

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@bpatters , I was thinking it was a number of things causing me to see a loss in 2 weeks with Flower, while Daisy's weight is on the generally upward trend. I changed Fleece last night, and I have white powder spots. I will remove the romaine from Flower's diet and see what happens. Since I am unemployed right now, (and since employers are not breaking down my door to hire me.) I will take Daisy out of the cage for some supplemental high calcium greens for the next few weeks.

I am sure she lost a bit upon moving to the new cage and having the extra room to run laps.
 

MissJean

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bpatters;719350 Things you can try to see if you can reduce the calcium stains (which I do NOT believe are harmless if they're only powder said:
See, I'm not sure what else one is supposed to do though. The pig I mentioned can get white spots from just purified water and hay. I've even been introducing bluegrass, a lower calcium hay, and I'm not sure if it's helping. I'd have to do the only water and hay experiment again to see for sure. Going from stain covered fleece to only a few spots in a week certainly felt like an accomplishment. :weepy:

I figured if Numa ever developed a stone, it's no ones fault but his poor genetic disposition. Perhaps I am wrong in this.
 

YourSoJelly

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Poor piggers. Nala, Pumpkin, and I all send our best of wishes!
 

bpatters

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@MissJean, you may just have a pig that's going to develop stones no matter what. Some pigs do. In other cases, sludge/stone formation can be controlled by diet or syringing extra fluids.

You can only do the best you can do to help them. You can eliminate the white spots by not feeding them at all, but that's certainly no way to control it.

My quibble is with the people who say that powder is ok, but grit is bad. I don't know how they know that. With grit, the stone forming process has obviously already started, so in that sense, grit is probably worse than powder. But I, and many others, have had pigs with stones and never had any grit that we'd ever noticed, just powder. In my case, I didn't even get a lot of powder.

I was already a strong advocate of trying to control the powder when Flourish developed her stone, and nothing about her case has caused me to change my opinion.
 

YourSoJelly

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I agree with bpatters. No white stuff is looked proudly upon but I would reccomend little calcium foods.
 

MissJean

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@bpatters Well that sucks. I hope Guinea Lynx updates their information soon! That's what I keep basing my information on. Hope they haven't led me too astray in other areas. :(
 

YourSoJelly

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@MissJean , maybe it was just that one spot where it was a mistake.
 

soopermum62

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Revisiting this thread, I think I had an overweight piggie... I weighed them again today at 1:20 pm and Flower has lost another 38 grams. it brings her total to 91 gms or 3.2oz lost since the first of January. I got my C & C right around the 21st of Dec. Before then they were in (broken link removed) so there was not a lot of exercise.
Daisy on the other hand gained 64 gms.
They both are veggie eating machines.

They are getting all the hay they want. (Timothy) I finally got through the bag of orchard grass, but more was used as a bed than eaten. Oxbow pellets at 1/2 cup per day (shared). Clear eyes, clean noses, good poops, lots o pee. clean fur... clean cage (LOL!!)...Skin and nails look good. No itchies.

They are loving the 2 tomatoes and the 1/8 of bell pepper per piggie that I have been giving them and the red leaf lettuce is a hit. I am making sure they get at least 1 cup of veggies per piggie a day. They are very active. Since I am home during the day, I have been keeping a closer than normal eye on them. All I can do is see what next week brings. If she continues to lose, or other symptoms pop up, to the vet she will go.
 
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