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Dominance New 3rd pig still being picked on after long introduction?

ShayPiggiesnHam

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Hi I was wondering if any experienced cavy slaves could shed some light on my current situation. In February I got my first pig after not having any for several years, her name is Momo. I knew she needed a friend so in April I got Pichu and they were thrilled to have company( after a quarantine of course). But at the end of July I couldn't say no to another pig so I got winry. I knew a third might mess up momo and pichus chemistry but I gave it a shot. To begin with my first two get along fine a little head raising and tattling by pichu every now and then but nothing major. When I first introduced winry to them she was super excited to see other pigs and was popcorning everywhere. I did about 7 several hour bonding sessions and then I felt like they were calm enough to not go crazy back in the cage together. But especially pichu and sometimes momo too keep biting at her and winry makes this sound like a sad puppy and gets cornered often. I don't want to separate because no blood has been drawn but she's being bullied daily and I feel so bad for her.:( will the bullying end?
For reference that's their cage and momo is the biggest brown and white Rex, pichu is the white, brown and tan second biggest and little winry is the brown and blonde with the hair running backwards with a fohawk. Thanks in advance and extra points if you know what each of their names are from:)
image.jpgIMG_1297.jpg
 

CavyTV

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How long have they been together? Is Winry losing a lot of weight (50g+/ a few ounces)? Do you have 2 of everything in their cage?
 

ShayPiggiesnHam

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How long have they been together? Is Winry losing a lot of weight (50g+/ a few ounces)? Do you have 2 of everything in their cage?
I first put all 3 in a neutral area 2 weeks ago and I did several intros for a week and they hadn't drawn blood so I put them all in the cage after I changed it to get rid of anyone's smell. I haven't been checking her weight but I have been checking for bites and nothing so far. I can't tell if she's skinny or just tiny but she does have a vet appt tomorrow morning for a checkup. Also yes they have multiple of everything I forgot to put the hideys and pig couches back in for the picture. I did take out the sacks I had in because pichu would force her way in when winry was hiding and trap/nip her. I'll let you know what the vet says tomorrow morning.
 

bpatters

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You're going backwards by repeatedly putting them together and the separating them. Guinea pigs are wired to establish dominance when they meet a new pig, so every time you put them back together, they start the whole process over again.

The cage is also not conducive to their getting along together. I'd take that wire divider out so they've got more room. Don't put hideys and couches back in -- they just take up room. Look at the photo galleries for fleece forests, and put a few of those in to break up the sight lines so they can't always see each other. And if you've got enough room, break down that loft and expand the cage itself. Cavies need room to run.
 

ShayPiggiesnHam

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bpatters I'll clarify on their cage, maybe the angle was confusing it isn't divided it's actually 1.5 Midwest cages on the bottom. The separation is to keep the bedding from the hay area off the fleece but they have access with the ramp. I've found it difficult to scrape off tiny bits of hay from the fleece when I need to wash it. Is the bottom plus the loft not big enough for 3? The last of of the times I tried bonding them I had them together for around 6 hours and they were all laying down not constantly chasing winry so I put them in the cage together. However half the time pichu will still peck at winry and she doesn't usually run, she will either just let it happen and start making this sad noise like a puppy or run before pichu or momo can start sniffing. Should I intervene when this happens? Also her vet appt went well and he said she's petite but her weight is fine.
 

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CavyTV

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Since the loft is only a grid wide I believe that leads to squabbling. A cage/loft that's only 1 grid wide doesn't allow the piggies to walk around each other without creating a fuss. I'd suggest re-shaping the loft and instead of having it cover the whole back side of the cage it can cover either part of the left side or part of the right side - maybe a 2x2 or 2x3... or a 1x2 will be fine if you can't fit anything bigger (in that case I would suggest trying to create an overhanging loft so that you can make something bigger without having it cover half of the cage).

The separation of the main level also might be a part of the problem. Can you remove that white, long grid/wall and leave the green tarp thing I see underneath? Or you can remove the partition altogether and make a hay/bedding room out of coroplast... or just put 3+ litter boxes in the cage. That, I think, will open up the most space (using litter boxes).

Bigger is better. If you can expand the cage somehow, either by adding more room on the main level with C&C grids or completely replacing the 2 midwests with a C&C cage, then go for it. The more space the easier it'll be for them to live together in peace. For 3 girls, I'd say you need at least a 2x5, but a 2x6 would be better and anything bigger than that would be great. If you can go wider (so 3+ grids wide rather than 2 grids wide) then I'd suggest doing that as well.

It sounds like your girls are still trying to work out the hierarchy. Give them more time and if the problem still persists after a couple of months, AND Winry is losing SIGNIFICANT weight (50+ grams/a few ounces) or is getting hurt to the point where blood is drawn and the injuries cannot heal by themselves... then I would consider separating if I were you.

Try not to interfere when they are working things out. What may seem stressful and scary to you may not be even close for the pigs. They know what they're doing. If you interfere you may slow down their process and it'll be no help to them. Just let them be and they will work things out eventually.
 
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bpatters

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The bottom isn't large enough for them, and the narrow loft isn't good, either.

Weigh Winry regularly. If she's maintaining her weight, don't separate them.
 

spy9doc

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A 1x?? loft isn't good for much if you have more than one cavy. You will be surprised at the difference a single grid's length or width will make in the loft. For instance, I started with a 1x2 loft and there was so little room for two cavies up there. I then created a 2x2 offset loft and what a world of difference! I will post a couple of pics for comparison, as well as a pic of an offset ramp. When you create an offset/overhanging loft, then you can still easily clean the main level

If you are going to run the loft lengthwise of the cage, then put a ramp at each end. Look in the Cages Store at their ramp so designed.

Box & loft.jpg

Offset loft design.jpg Loft3.jpg
 

CavyTV

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@spy9doc, where did you get that grid with the opening? The one at the top of the ramp. I'm assuming you got it from the GuineaPigCagesStore...?
 

spy9doc

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@spy9doc, where did you get that grid with the opening? The one at the top of the ramp. I'm assuming you got it from the GuineaPigCagesStore...?

Not so.......I made it myself! ;) In fact, all the grids of the loft are custom cut. Each grid is only six squares high. Six squares are plenty and far more aesthetically pleasing to me, especially since their loft is at eye level when I sit at my desk.

I used a pair of lightweight bolt cutters to cut the grid and then smoothed the cut ends with a Dremel. Painstaking work, but achieved what I wanted. Should you decide to do this yourself, be forewarned the the cut grids are a b***h to get into the connectors. By cutting a doorway in the grid, I maintained the integrity of the grid and its fit into the rest of the cage. I need to cut a new one because now that the boys are grown, I want to move the ramp just a little more away from the side of the cage so that they have a clear path to run around it.

Speaking of ramp, in the previous post I meant to say an offset loft, not an offset ramp.
 

Guinea Pig Papa

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Not so.......I made it myself! ;) In fact, all the grids of the loft are custom cut. Each grid is only six squares high. Six squares are plenty and far more aesthetically pleasing to me, especially since their loft is at eye level when I sit at my desk.

I used a pair of lightweight bolt cutters to cut the grid and then smoothed the cut ends with a Dremel. Painstaking work, but achieved what I wanted. Should you decide to do this yourself, be forewarned the the cut grids are a b***h to get into the connectors. By cutting a doorway in the grid, I maintained the integrity of the grid and its fit into the rest of the cage. I need to cut a new one because now that the boys are grown, I want to move the ramp just a little more away from the side of the cage so that they have a clear path to run around it.

Speaking of ramp, in the previous post I meant to say an offset loft, not an offset ramp.

Chip and Sparky are spoiled ;)
 

ShayPiggiesnHam

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Spy9doc do you have to throw the litter box away often because of pee soaking into it? Also I love your setup:)
 

ZiggyPig

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A 1x?? loft isn't good for much if you have more than one cavy. You will be surprised at the difference a single grid's length or width will make in the loft. For instance, I started with a 1x2 loft and there was so little room for two cavies up there. I then created a 2x2 offset loft and what a world of difference! I will post a couple of pics for comparison, as well as a pic of an offset ramp. When you create an offset/overhanging loft, then you can still easily clean the main level

If you are going to run the loft lengthwise of the cage, then put a ramp at each end. Look in the Cages Store at their ramp so designed.

View attachment 83257

View attachment 83259 View attachment 83258

I am definitely doing this with my newly thrifted extra grids!
 

spy9doc

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Spy9doc do you have to throw the litter box away often because of pee soaking into it? Also I love your setup:)

Thanks for the compliment.;) As you can see from the pics, the original cage was red and I had decided to change the coroplast to blue.....hence the two-colored loft.

Regarding the litter box......I stopped using the disposable type about two years ago. It was the best idea I could come up with when the piggies were younger, but wanted something that lasted longer and was kinder to the environment as well, so I began using a "kitten" litter box and haven't looked back. The pressed paper type actually was quite durable with frequent cleanings and fresh litter.
 

ZiggyPig

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Have you found a litter box that fits across the the length of the loft? Actually, as I look at your set up, I doubt you have looked for one, I'm just looking for an alternative to the rather expensive cavy cafe.
 

ShayPiggiesnHam

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Ziggypig The biggest I've seen is a 22" but my pigs would trap themselves in that remaining 6" between the box and the wall. I'm going to use a coroplast sheet to make a custom fit litter box. Where I live a 2.5'x3' sheet is $10 so it's definitely cheaper than the cafe.
I'm going piggy shopping later for new coroplast and fleece. Unfortunately mine will be too short now since I'm upgrading to a 2x6 but I can put the old fleece in the 2x2 loft.
 

ShayPiggiesnHam

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When I put them in the new 2x6 cage with a 2x2 loft they started running and popcorning all crazy they love it! Winry even got more confident in the bigger space and tried to mount momo( she didn't win but good try haha). They are all getting along a lot better now, still some dominance behavior but nothing major. Thanks again for everyone's help:)
 

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jaycriae

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I just read this thread, and while it seems your problem is solved, I noticed nobody took a stab at any of the names. Pichu is a Pokémon, and Winry is my favorite Fullmetal Alchemist character. Not sure about momo, though, sorry! They're all very cute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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