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Myspoiltpiggies
05-04-05, 02:03 pm
Look how small these cages are http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/angelus_stud I can't spot any hay either. Click on 'housing'.

VoodooJoint
05-04-05, 02:20 pm
Yuck...hardly enough room to turn around and lie down. Very sad.

jennawing
05-04-05, 02:43 pm
Oh my! This girl just joined one of my forums- and never said anything about being a breeder! She said she was a rescue and had 40+ pigs- but I know those pictures anywhere!

Piglet
05-04-05, 02:46 pm
She does mention C&C cages, yet she doesn't use them!

DocDolittle
05-04-05, 02:52 pm
One particular plastic cage on the market — it has a solid bottom, then a clear plastic top that curves up, with a small wire opening at the top. Some people do not recommend these types of cages but I like them, for young piglets bouncing around flicking wood shaving about.

Wow, notice how she recommends the cages with the least possible ventilation! What an ignorant fool.

Piglet
05-04-05, 02:56 pm
I know - she just wants to save on cleaning up, how selfish

Guinea_Gal
05-05-05, 06:54 pm
I agree. Maybe i am generalizing and sorry if i am, i am just very angry right about now. From what cavy breeders and showers i have heard of, the ones i have talked about on these forums anyway, seem to have become so preoccupied in winning and making money, they have forgotten the real joy of having a cavy in your life. They do not focus on the guinea pig's care as much as they should from what i've seen.

guineagurl
05-05-05, 07:02 pm
It's sad to say but I really don't think you are generalising, I think the majority of breeder's are exactly like you said.. they are not concerned with the overall wellbeing of the piggy they are breeding and showing.

salana
05-05-05, 09:31 pm
Jennawing, what forum is she on?

RubyPiggie2
05-10-05, 11:38 am
I know her too. Used to go to Pimms Pages, now I'm hardley ever on there. They are pro-breeding, and although some of the membres are very nice, the majority thinks that small cages and mixes are OK for piggies.
I don't think that we should provide the site link (it's not Just PimmsPages.com) for privacy reasons, really. We shouldn't take an argument over there, either. If she knows what C&C cages are, I doubt she'll stop using the hutches. She had (I think) 17 pigs die from somewhere around October to January. Sad, really.
I don't really want to stereotype breeders either, but I think we're right. Most don't really care about the space or welfare of the pigs. We should jam them into closets for the rest of their lives. :)

jennawing
05-10-05, 02:21 pm
I was actually speaking of a different forum, but out of respect for the great people on there, I'd rather not share that. She hasn't been about more at any rate.

RubyPiggie2
05-10-05, 02:52 pm
Oh, she must be on more than Pimms. Well, she was on a lot over there, don't know if she still is. I remember going to her site before.

LucyLou
05-16-05, 12:39 am
Gosh how tiny are they! And I thought some of the other Breeder Block cages I've seen were small!

suzilovespiggie
05-16-05, 03:05 am
These pictures are so sad. Not only are the piggies in small housing but who is to love them. It hurts my heart. Poor piggies!

ChadWPB
05-16-05, 09:11 am
Hey salana, I don't think she'd join my forum. I'm waiting for the first breeder to ignore the warnings.

I really do not appreciate how breeders view living, breathing creatures as "stock", like merchandise.

CavyKind
05-21-05, 12:11 pm
I know her too. Used to go to Pimms Pages, now I'm hardley ever on there. They are pro-breeding, and although some of the membres are very nice, the majority thinks that small cages and mixes are OK for piggies.


Yes I recognise her from that site, I wasn't aware that she was claiming to be a rescuer though. That said, a lot of the breeders seem to telling all and sundry that they also rescue...it's starting towear a bit thin with me.
I haven't been on Pimms Pages for a good while now, I was banned because I was too vocal re my anti breeding sentiments....says it all really.

lilipution1013
05-21-05, 07:54 pm
Look how small these cages are http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/angelus_stud I can't spot any hay either. Click on 'housing'.

oh that is so sad! especially the stacked "hutches for the boys"... what a miserable little existence, especially for such adorable little pigs.

Faunn
05-25-05, 09:56 am
Seeing as she has 30-40+ pigs, I bet she doesnt have enough time to feed and fill all the water bottels in one day, and def. not enough to spend even 5 mins with each pig...:(

daftscotslass
05-25-05, 10:03 am
I don't like it, I wouldn't put my guinea pigs anywhere near it. On the other hand, the residents of the cages don't exactly look neglected (though I suppose we don't know what's going on behind the scenes).

Gracie
09-24-05, 03:15 pm
Um whats wrong with those cages, mine are the same size. They have the recommended 2 square foot per piggie, as recommended by Seagulls Guinea Pig Compendium.

cavy-cool-crazy
09-24-05, 03:17 pm
These days, as agreed by thousands of cavy rescuers, enthusiasts and owners, the minimum space a single cavy shoud have is 7.5 square feet (www.cavycages.com (http://www.cavycages.com/)). Those hutches offer less than 2 square feet of space, which is like shoving you in a cupboard no bigger than you for ten years.

Also, some of the information is incorrect. Found on the 'Profile' page:

"Young: Piglets" - the young of cavies are called pups.
"Diet: Omnivorous" - Cavies are strict herbivores, which means no animal products at all.

Sawda
09-24-05, 03:18 pm
Guys, please stop,for the sake of that owner.. keep your manors.. i know the owner knows about this and i don't think its very nice..
Please can you take in consideration that theese pics could of been done inbetween clean out and haying up.. it takes two seconds to take a picture

Gracie
09-24-05, 03:19 pm
Oh what rubbish. where did you get that information from?? If I had to do that for all my piggies I would need a blooming warehouse.

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 03:21 pm
So quick to judge a book by its cover!!!! My single boars are very happy in them cages. I have never had any problems with them. They are cleaned out once a week and hay, readigrass and food is given to them everyday.
No hay is in the cages because I wanted people to see the hutches and the piggies themselves, they were just cleaned out.

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 03:25 pm
I know her too. Used to go to Pimms Pages, now I'm hardley ever on there. They are pro-breeding, and although some of the membres are very nice, the majority thinks that small cages and mixes are OK for piggies.
I don't think that we should provide the site link (it's not Just PimmsPages.com) for privacy reasons, really. We shouldn't take an argument over there, either. If she knows what C&C cages are, I doubt she'll stop using the hutches. She had (I think) 17 pigs die from somewhere around October to January. Sad, really.
I don't really want to stereotype breeders either, but I think we're right. Most don't really care about the space or welfare of the pigs. We should jam them into closets for the rest of their lives. :)

thanks for pointing out that I have lost alot of my guineas. this was to gastroentrotis, not to small cages! Imagine what size shed I would need if I was to house them in cavycages?????
More like a house just for them!
For peoples information, I do let them out... see this photo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0759.jpg

cavy-cool-crazy
09-24-05, 03:29 pm
Oh what rubbish. where did you get that information from?? If I had to do that for all my piggies I would need a blooming warehouse



Have you read the rules on these forums? The whole site is about C&C cages! You don't need 7.5 sq. feet of space for every single pig, you add a tiny bit on for each extra pig you have. And you don't have to make everything single level.
Take my cage for example. It is 4 levels, and if my pigs weren't together, they would have enough space on each level to live happily with another pig, so in respect I actually have space for 8 pigs while taking up a tiny amount of space in my tiny bedroom!



this was to gastroentrotis


How come 17 pigs had this then? I'm not meaning to be pushy, but I'm interestd as to how they got it, how it spread and what treatment they were given.

Sawda
09-24-05, 03:30 pm
These days, as agreed by thousands of cavy rescuers, enthusiasts and owners, the minimum space a single cavy shoud have is 7.5 square feet (www.cavycages.com (http://www.cavycages.com/)). Those hutches offer less than 2 square feet of space, which is like shoving you in a cupboard no bigger than you for ten years.

Also, some of the information is incorrect. Found on the 'Profile' page:

"Young: Piglets" - the young of cavies are called pups.
"Diet: Omnivorous" - Cavies are strict herbivores, which means no animal products at all.
There are tons of differant names for young! i call them piglets and mini pigs! its not like a strict thing that it has to be all proffesional and all that.

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 03:34 pm
That is a old website, if you want to give me some more abuse please visit this site
http://guineapigqueen.bravehost.com/
I am from the UK, people all over the world call Guinea Pigs by diffierent names like Cavies, so over here they young are mainly know as Piglets or Pups. I personally prefer Piglets.

Sawda
09-24-05, 03:36 pm
im ditching this thread before i have to anger myself more..
GPperson has not had a good week, it has been a year since she lost her dad and its not fair to stress her more than she is now

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 03:48 pm
Have you read the rules on these forums? The whole site is about C&C cages! You don't need 7.5 sq. feet of space for every single pig, you add a tiny bit on for each extra pig you have. And you don't have to make everything single level.
Take my cage for example. It is 4 levels, and if my pigs weren't together, they would have enough space on each level to live happily with another pig, so in respect I actually have space for 8 pigs while taking up a tiny amount of space in my tiny bedroom!



How come 17 pigs had this then? I'm not meaning to be pushy, but I'm interestd as to how they got it, how it spread and what treatment they were given.

Well you seem to be the veterinarian you tell me.
Actually I lost 25 from September to May, but not all where down to Gastroentritis(having around 40, with various ages you tend to lose a few). I dont know where it came from but I took 2 guineas to have a Autopsy. that was the comfirmation from the vet. They were give a course of Anti-Biotics and given hay and wood shavings from a differnt supplier. I also changed the disinfectant to a stronger one which kills more germs. That seemed to do the trick.

Gracie
09-24-05, 03:49 pm
Hey dont jump down my throat. I have single boars and if i had to house them all in 7.5sq ft my shed would have to be huge.

I am well aware that you only have to add an small extra amount for 2 piggies living together.

I just think you are being unfair to judge this person who happens to be a friend of mine, when you dont know how she looks after her piggies and under what circumstances the photos were taken. As she has saidm she wanted people to be able to see the piggies and not the hay racks. I do the sma when I am taking photos, all my bottles and hay racks are removed for the short 2 to 3 minutes that I am taking the photo. People have asked the same question of where are the hay racks and bottles, I explain that they have been removed for the purpose of taking a clear photo of the piggie in the cage and they are quite happy with this. Maybe this is what you should have asked my friend, instead of all jumping on her and accusing her of not looking after her piggies properly.

With regards the the sickness that her piggies suffered this year, I know for a fact that this hit her really hard. It is a terrible thing to loose one piggie never mind a load of them. I also speak from experience there, after loosing 2 piggies in one month. Are you going to accuse me of cruelty as well???????

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:01 pm
Aaah I didn't mean to upset anyone in making this thread. I just was showing people what most breeders keep their guinea pigs in. This site is not for breeders so I didn't expect to see any on here. I used to have small cages for mine, but I promise you - they are much happier with the cages they have now. I have 16 and have found that I can give them quite a lot of space and I only have a tiny shed!

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:03 pm
I just think you are being unfair to judge this person who happens to be a friend of mine, when you dont know how she looks after her piggies and under what circumstances the photos were taken.
We only have to look at the size of the cages to judge how happy these guinea pigs must be.

Gracie
09-24-05, 04:06 pm
well if you didnt mean to upset her then you owe her an apology, because I know she is very upset.

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 04:12 pm
I am Upset!
Well you are more than welcome to come and visit my guinea pigs any of you...
During the warmer months all the sows (33 to be precise) get let out in the garden and have FREE range of my garden. The boars have to be housed in smaller runs.
If the weather is cold they are let out in my shed for a few hours and I do manage to clean them, feed them, water them and cuddle them.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:13 pm
i know this person to and she is very upset! she loves those pigs and the hutches are fine!! as you saw in that other photo they have alot of time to run about!!!!!
say sorry please

hollypigs
09-24-05, 04:25 pm
hi there i am new to cavy cages - on reading this post i have become quite upset. the lady in question you are talking about is a very good friend of mine and believe me friend or not if i think guinea pigs are being kept in unsuitable conditions i would say so - animal welfare always comes first to me. i would 1st like to say that a high number of her guineas did die an incredibly terrible time for her - believe me she went through hell - we sourced an excellent exotics vet one of the best in his field and he did everything he could do and now eventually thank god - no pigs have died for a good few months now (touch wood) the second thing is that i have been in emmas shed and to be honest the pigs are very well looked after - they have special areas on the grass and are out a lot in summer and u have my word they are all very much loved - any1 who disagrees and has a problem with this feel free to come up and visit and i assure u u will eat your words. thank you for reading this and please feel free to contact me - i would rather people being upfront, open and honest and discuss things as there are always room for improvement as none of us are perfect.

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:29 pm
I don't doubt for one second that this person is making more than one username to back herself up.

Read: http://cavyspirit.com/breeding.htm

And know you are not right. Pigs need space. And I really hope you realize the dangers of unsupervised outside time.

Please use proper capitalization and grammar, as well as spelling. Thank you.

hollypigs
09-24-05, 04:31 pm
you are very wrong slap maxwell i assure you that - of course the outside time is not unsupervised - that would just be idiotic

hollypigs
09-24-05, 04:32 pm
by the way who said it was unsupervised - you have just assumed that

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 04:33 pm
I am with my guineas when they are outside.
I am not making up new usernames only childish people would do that, I am 21 years old.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:33 pm
Im not being funny but how would you like it to say you miss treat your animals! its upsetting especially when its not even true!

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:33 pm
Look, I believe you, they are loved..etc.. I have no problem with the way they are kept. It's just the size of the cages. As some of her guinea pigs have passed on.. maybe now she can make the hutches a little bigger? You new members.. you are her friends so you are bound to stick up for her.. but it won't make it any better - the hutches are too small:(

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:35 pm
Im not being funny but how would you like it to say you miss treat your animals! its upsetting especially when its not even true!No one has said anything about anyone 'mistreating' their animals. The hutches are just too small, that's all we're saying.

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:36 pm
The above post had nothing to do with you, hollypigs.

I would like you to try to spend a month in your smallest bathroom and then tell me how that feels. Your cages are glorified litter boxes.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:37 pm
Yes but by saying there is not enough space then your basicly saying they are not in the right care , which they are.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:39 pm
Yes but by saying there is not enough space then your basicly saying they are not in the right care , which they are.
They can get ill with that amount of space. Also, how do you fit toys in those cages? They are probably bored.

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 04:39 pm
Right enough is enough, if you have anything to complain about why dont you have some decency(sp?) about yourselves and contact me, my e.mail addys are on my website http://guineapigqueen.bravehost.com/ instead of sla**ing me off on your forum.
Yeah so what I AM A Breeder, wow isnt that a shock for the books, and yes i dont have smaller cages that what is recommended.
I am a breeder so I usually stay of this forum but when I comes to me being b**ched thats not on!

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:41 pm
Right enough is enough, if you have anything to complain about why dont you have some decency(sp?) about yourselves and contact me, my e.mail addys are on my website http://guineapigqueen.bravehost.com/ instead of sla**ing me off on your forum.
Yeah so what I AM A Breeder, wow isnt that a shock for the books, and yes i dont have smaller cages that what is recommended.
I am a breeder so I usually stay of this forum but when I comes to me being b**ched thats not on!

well said gp person! u go girl!!!!!!
:love: :D lol

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:42 pm
I was exactly like you when I first joined. I was breeding and I was keeping them in small cages - about double the size of yours. Now I don't breed and we are making c&c cages for them tommorow. They aren't going to be huge but they will be double the size of the cages they have right now so they will be happy.

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:42 pm
I had to have one of my pigs in a 2.5 square foot cage for a week after healing from an invasive vet procedure. She was depressed, lethargic, and bored. As soon as she moved back into my 13 square foot cage, she was popcorning and full of energy again. It proves itself.

I honestly feel deeply sorry for the conditions your pigs have to live in.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:42 pm
a pig with lots of space can feel insecure and lost and scared! with those hutches they feel happy they are healthy and can run round the hutches. they get fed watered floor time and lots of cuddles!

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:47 pm
a pig with lots of space can feel insecure and lost and scared!
You read that out of 'Guinea pig lopaedia' didn't you? That book has some cr** information in there. C&C cages has proved the book wrong. Guinea pigs popcorn when they are happy - not scared. So explain to me why guinea pigs popcorn in these huge cages and not in your little block hutches. Oh yes, silly me, they can't even popcorn in these hutches.. its too small:(

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:48 pm
a pig with lots of space can feel insecure and lost and scared! with those hutches they feel happy they are healthy and can run round the hutches. they get fed watered floor time and lots of cuddles!

Prove that to me. Pigs want to be exporing and running laps, not cooped up to the point where they can barely turn around.

Lap time is great, but it isn't sufficient for the happiness of a cavy. They need big cages.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:49 pm
well how can you prove they like HUGE cages??
mine are actully much bigger than that much its not a cc

citronsoul
09-24-05, 04:49 pm
If they're scared, it's because they're getting used to the surroundings. I've had pigs in smaller cages before & I always thought they were happy. But they were never as active as the two I have now (housed in a 2x4). The extra space really paid off. I think I would describe the difference as "content" vs. "ecstatic hyper happy pig."

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:52 pm
well how can you prove they like HUGE cages??
mine are actully much bigger than that much its not a cc

Because they popcorn, run laps, and make a noisy ruckus. They don't and can't do that is 2 square foot cages.

Oh, and we have hundreds of testimonials, too. http://www.cavycages.com/cgi-bin/gbookit/gbookit.pl

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 04:53 pm
GuineaPigLopaedia book was written by a very good Veterinarian Guinea Pig Specialist.

That I didn't want to enter their 'kitchen' like a few other people have trashed on here. I were dragged into it against my own will. So your so called 'warning' is a load of crap.

Urm, here is a stange question for you all, are you all guinea pig physcologists?? Well you must think you are.

citronsoul
09-24-05, 04:54 pm
well how can you prove they like HUGE cages??
mine are actully much bigger than that much its not a cc

Where's the proof they don't? The reason this site advocates C&C size recommendations is because of the visible difference that has been witnessed over & over again of the guinea pigs housed in them.

Slap Maxwell
09-24-05, 04:55 pm
I have the Iopedia book. Its one of the worst books I have ever read. I use it for anatomy references, otherwise, its not worth it's weight in paper.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 04:55 pm
Urm, here is a stange question for you all, are you all guinea pig physcologists?? Well you must think you are.
Even a small child can work out that your cage would be terribly uncomfortable to live in.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 04:56 pm
Where's the proof they don't? The reason this site advocates C&C size recommendations is because of the visible difference that has been witnessed over & over again of the guinea pigs housed in them.
kk fair enough but we all have opinions

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 05:08 pm
We all have our own opinions, well said.

I have seen some other breeders who arent the nicest people in the world, and will kill their pigs or 'stock' as they are known because they didnt do well at the shows have 4 pigs in similar size cages my boars live in. They are the sterotypical people you want to be getting at not me!

I currently have 50ish guinea pigs and non of them are showing any signs of stress. They have toys, food and water. I would consider themselves very lucky because I have taken guineas from the sterotypical breeders and given them a better life, well thats my opinion.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-24-05, 05:15 pm
We're not going round looking for breeders who keep their guinea pigs in terrible conditions just so we can scream at them. I just spotted your site over the Internet and thought it was a very small amount of space. So, since your here, we are trying to persuade you to give your pigs more room. We are just concerned for them. We aren't doing this to upset you. At the end of the day it is up to you. But at least we tried. Yes, we all have opinions. Sometimes its just right to *try* and change peoples' opinions, like in this situation. Because I just can't imagine how they can stretch their legs when they are in their hutches.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 05:19 pm
theres no need to be concerned about these pigs!!:important

guineapigqueen
09-24-05, 05:25 pm
Atleast I am on the internet, some breeder think taking about guinea pigs is crap and they used these animals for MONEY and kill them if they dont get it.

See you are just digging your feet back in saying "Because I just can't imagine how they can stretch their legs when they are in their hutches."

View these photos, would you see a sterotypical breeder doing this??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0759.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0929.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0928.jpg

ilovpiggiesthei
09-24-05, 05:30 pm
you treat your pigs wonderfully

Guinea_Gal
09-24-05, 06:02 pm
Are the cavies fenced in, or can they run anywhere? It's dangerous not to have an enclosure.

DocDolittle
09-24-05, 06:12 pm
It's time to face the music: It's been proven that guinea pigs enjoy bigger space; It's been proven that all guinea pigs, for the most part, even boars, enjoy company; It's been proven that keeping you're pigs out in the open in your yard like that it dangerous.

I have no idea where you got the idea that guinea pigs feel safer in small spaces. Do you realize that guinea pigs need time to run about and play with each other? The majority of pig owners on this site made C&C cages, and guess what: they've noticed a change for the better in their pigs. My boys used to drive each other crazy when I introduced them: because they had absolutely no room for themselves. How would you like it if your so-called "personal bubble" was constantly being invaded because you lived in your bathroom? But now they adore each other, to a certain extent. They're always playing and teasing each others, and they're constantly popcorning. They used to hide every time I'd visit them. Now they actually try to climb the grids when I pass. You're telling me they're unhappy?

And you only have single boars? Pardon my french, but that's a load of crap. How would you like only getting to see a giant who takes care of you and not seeing anybody else. I'm pretty sure that I would be unhappy.

And just the fact that you have that many sows outside at the same time, what would you do if you were distracted with one sow when an animal came and took anohter. I'm sure where you are you have at least one species of birds of prey and a few carnivorous mammals. Not all animals would be afraid of you if such a meal was at stake. If my boys are ever outside then I'm always sitting with my legs at least partially surrounding them, and I only have two!

So, even if you do think that you're doing a good job at taking care of your piggers, you're outnumbered. We have solid proof of our pigger's happiness.

Susan9608
09-24-05, 06:14 pm
Oh please - go defend your small cages some place else. You won't convince anyone on *this* forum that your pigs are happy and delighted to be living in what amounts to simply a toliet. You can argue till your fingers fall off from excessive typing, but, in the end, the pictures of your cages speak for themselves.

The pictures of your pigs running around outside are great - I imagine, for the pigs, it's a lot like the hour out in the yard that convicted felons get every day.

Also, no one dragged you here against your will. You *chose* to come on here and defend yourself. Had you simply ignored the original post and went about your business, this thread would have died out long ago. Instead *you* are the one attracting more attention, and thus more criticism, by your repeated posting and defenses.

No one on this forum owes you an apology for anything. No one has made personal remarks about you or insulted you in any way; no one has done anything except present the facts - that your cages are too small - and then express their opinions about those facts.

thecalders
09-24-05, 06:16 pm
Personally I think these cages look great...

If you are only looking to warehouse them to "eatin" size.


Honestly though, you are free to your opinions, and you should be free to voice them, but you must realize that this is a forum of those with very strong beliefs that biggies need A LOT of room. I find it amazing that you would actually recommend those on your page to visit Cavy Spirit and Cavy Cages and not get that.

That being said, I have to go clean out my own pets habitats.

Amanda

thecalders
09-24-05, 06:55 pm
Mind you, I am not at all insinuating that you are consuming your beloved piggies, honestly it is just that they are made with the needs of livestock in mind, not homes for pets.

You can tell yourself whatever you like to believe, you can tell your friends whatever it is you tell yourself you have convinced yourself of, and you can most certainly tell us whatever it is you tell yourself and your friends that you want to believe, but the truth is in the pudding. Plain fact is, these cages are build to house x amount of cavies in x amount of space, not with the best interests of the actual guinea pigs in mind. No matter how many "breaks" you give them to their confinement.

Is there worse out there? You be there is. If that allows you to sleep at night, then what do you care what we think?

jennawing
09-24-05, 10:00 pm
http://www.petplace.com:

Analgesics (pain medications) help alleviate abdominal discomfort. Gastroenteritis will cause gas production and intestinal bloating which can be very uncomfortable. The pain causes guinea pigs to become anorexic and lethargic. The lack of ingested food and activity causes an ileus (slowing or stasis of the gastrointestinal tract) which allows for an increased absorption of the toxins. Banamine® (flunixin meglumine) is a good non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drug (NSAID) that is effective for gastrointestinal pain. Opiods (butorphanol, buprenorphine) are also used.


Just so you didn't miss that- lack of ... activity is the cause of gastroenteritis- lack of activity due to too-small living quarters. Your pigs died because they could not move around. Enough said.

DocDolittle
09-24-05, 10:10 pm
Just so you didn't miss that- lack of ... activity is the cause of gastroenteritis- lack of activity due to too-small living quarters. Your pigs died because they could not move around. Enough said.

Well-said Jennawing!

Ly&Pigs
09-24-05, 10:29 pm
ilovpiggiesthei, hollypig, Gracie and GP Person. I want all four of you to know this. This site is VERY ANTI-BREEDING, and clearly you all are breeders, hence the small prisons you keep your pigs in. We promote cages of the minimum of 7.5 square feet for 2 pigs, cages that allow pigs good movement, cages that allow pigs to run around in, popcorn in, have plenty of room for hidey houses, toys and food dishes. I suggest you four go back to wherever you came taking your rubbish with you.

I can also say these four are individual people that one of them has dragged over here to defend their views and not one person with 4 names. You can defend each other all you want, but it will be a cold day in hades before you convince any of us that keeping a pig in a 2 sq. ft. cage is healthy, beneficial or right.

No one on this forum owes you an apology for anything. No one has made personal remarks about you or insulted you in any way; no one has done anything except present the facts - that your cages are too small - and then express their opinions about those facts.
Susan, I can't agree with your statement more.

lilipution1013
09-25-05, 01:25 am
Um whats wrong with those cages, mine are the same size. They have the recommended 2 square foot per piggie, as recommended by Seagulls Guinea Pig Compendium.

Are you serious? TWO SQUARE FEET? That would be like a human being living in a dumpster. Yeah, you have enough room for your lungs to expand, and maybe turn around, but what kind of miserable existence is that?

lilipution1013
09-25-05, 01:30 am
Atleast I am on the internet, some breeder think taking about guinea pigs is crap and they used these animals for MONEY and kill them if they dont get it.

See you are just digging your feet back in saying "Because I just can't imagine how they can stretch their legs when they are in their hutches."

View these photos, would you see a sterotypical breeder doing this??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0759.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0929.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/guineapigqueen/000_0928.jpg

Aww, frolicking guinea pigs. *Makes happy motorboat noises* Now THAT'S what piggies really need. I recently had to downgrade my poor girls to a smaller cage -- actually, two store-bought cages turned into one -- because I had to move to school, and had to leave the guinea pigs in the care of my mother, who was afraid she would break the C&C cage I built. To make up for the sudden decrease in size, she's been allowing the girls to run free around my room (with all cords and chewables removed, of course) to get their little piggy selves some exercise. If you're going to keep your pig in a jail cell and not let it run around, that should be animal cruelty. >(

Susan9608
09-25-05, 01:44 am
Very small cage with time outside? Like I said before, that scenerio greatly reminds me of convicts getting their daily hour out in the "yard."

It's great to give your pigs time outside their cage, but I don't think it can make up for life in a tiny cage ... not unless they are spending 12 or more hours *outside* the cage, rather than in.

lilipution1013
09-25-05, 01:50 am
Oh, yeah, and those hutches... they look like wood. Wood, which is porous, and absorbs guina pig urine which can (1) make it smell REALLY bad and (2) become a breeding ground for potentially dangerous bacteria. No wonder all your pigs died. They probably got infections... or were just too depressed from lack of space. The pigs in the photos on your site all look very small--I certainly hope that's because of the age they were when the photos were taken and not because of goldfish syndrome... y'know, how goldfish only grow to the size their environment can sustain. Put one in a bowl, it will stay small. Put one in a small lake and you get koi-sized goldfish. (That's not a medical term or anything, "goldfish syndrome," just a handy example.) With the fish, it's a matter of nitrogen balance and maintaining the nitrogen conversion cycle (and yeah, THAT is a technical term), but with pigs it would more likely be a result of minor infections stunting the growth, or too little stress on the bones and growth of the muscles as a result of strenuous activity.

lilipution1013
09-25-05, 01:52 am
I know Susan, and I wish I could do more. Their cage is still a good size -- about 6 sq feet -- but they don't like it nearly as much as their big home-made cage. My mother and I have discussed / argued over this quite a bit, and on my next trip home we're going to build them a better, sturdier cage.

... and this has nothing to do with anything, but there are two really cute raccoons in the dumpster outside my window! Hi Rocky, hi Arfer! (Arfer Raccoon).

Susan9608
09-25-05, 02:16 am
Oh Lilipution - I'm terribly sorry. I wasn't referring to you, which I should have made clear. I understand that sometimes circumstances create situations that are less than desirable. I was referring to the fact that this individual - GPperson - makes a general practice of keeping his/her pigs in small cages and letting them out for "yard" time; it seems that this is a lifestyle and not a necessity dictated by certain circumstances.

You have my apology - looking back, I see how condescending my previous post looks, since I didn't specify who my comment was directed at and why.

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 02:35 am
Here's my two cents. I am in the UK. I have been around guinea pigs more than half my life. The only person I have ever heard call a baby guinea pig a piglet is one of the 9 year olds in the class that I teach. Anyone that knows anything will tell you they are called pups.

About the gastroenteritis. I have never heard of a guinea pig catching this - it is very, very rare. Did you know it is also highly infectious? I take it you quarantined the individuals that were ill and scrubbed EVERYTHING (including yourself!). It is pretty obvious that you didn't if you allowed 25 of your guinea pigs to die from it. It is pretty obvious that you cannot cope with it and more will probably die in the future. You really should re-assess your hygiene practices (the floors look pretty messy - this could attract vermin).

Do you tell your owners of the piggies that you breed about the bone problems that Satin cavies have? Do you tell them that they might have to face expensive vet visits in the future?

I know you care, but I think you have taken on more animals than you have the capability to care for.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 04:13 am
single boars? I think you have been barking up the wrong tree!
I have 33 sows and 19 boars if you can do your maths that equals 52 guinea pigs!!
When you have boars from breeding you cannot house them with others because they will fight, I have 2 trios of non breeding boars and about 3 pairs of non breeding boars.

I know all about OD and My guineas are going to be tested!
I have the time and love to take care of all my animals, like I have said previously to all, stop being childish and writing things on your forum about people and confront them.

Sawda
09-25-05, 04:21 am
Oh, yeah, and those hutches... they look like wood. Wood, which is porous, and absorbs guina pig urine which can (1) make it smell REALLY bad and (2) become a breeding ground for potentially dangerous bacteria. No wonder all your pigs died. They probably got infections... or were just too depressed from lack of space. The pigs in the photos on your site all look very small--I certainly hope that's because of the age they were when the photos were taken and not because of goldfish syndrome... y'know, how goldfish only grow to the size their environment can sustain. Put one in a bowl, it will stay small. Put one in a small lake and you get koi-sized goldfish. (That's not a medical term or anything, "goldfish syndrome," just a handy example.) With the fish, it's a matter of nitrogen balance and maintaining the nitrogen conversion cycle (and yeah, THAT is a technical term), but with pigs it would more likely be a result of minor infections stunting the growth, or too little stress on the bones and growth of the muscles as a result of strenuous activity.
You have just over stepped the mark.. your litterally saying she killed her pigs and that is not true, The owner is a very kind women who cares for her pigs, breeders breed because they love the animals! they are helping them by stopping Lethals, researching into OD etc etc
Also you spray the bottom and leave it to dry. the spray kills all germs and bacteria! seriously u lot need to think before you just say thiss sorta stuff, its not nice and its not fair.. its like your looking to have us come to back up our friends!
:mad: seriously.. this thread makes me feel sick how nasty it is :yuck:

Matt & Guins
09-25-05, 04:38 am
Again - pretty much as usual, I am not wanting to take any side on this situation.

All I can say is that this site really does get its nose out of joint when it comes across as website which is proven to belong to a breeder. Thats all the members need here to fule a massive argument and attack on breeders.

Basically, members here say "there is no good breeding" - so unfortunately any of those who disagree with that statment are not going to get anywhere - cause mods here are in charge and if they dont like what you're saying you will just get banned.

I'm sure that not all of the "anti-breeding" members here have their cavies in the 7.5 sq ft cages - before members start to attack others, I wish many of them would just look at how they take care of their own cavies.

In the end, this forum is anti-breeding, and any discussion on breeding/show etc etc should just be left to other forums - not even worth trying to defend it on here as its a losing battle.

SkinnyGuineaPig
09-25-05, 04:47 am
WOW you guys have to be EXTREMLY bored to be mocking someone that takes care of there piggies like she does.She is clearly talking about the available cages that are sold in pet stores,and if you guys opened your eyeballs and read clearly she says cages have to be low so the piggies have air circulation. If you would look at her guinea pig pictures,you can clearly see that her pigs are plump and look healthy and happy.And for the person who said she didnt even give them hay,well look at the picture in the shed,theres a load of hay on the ground.What also angers me is that you all seem to say that "commercial cages" are crap and only to get the C&C cage,and if you get something else its not good enough.I baugth a huge commercial cage and im more then satified with it.

It angers me how people can judge other people just by looks.She is a great person and she takes care of her piggies really well.Why dont you guys pick on someone who doesnt take care of there animals.There's millions of animals out there that arent well cared for,its discusting and RUDE. This is why i chose to be in the Pimms forum,theres is no bashing around on other members.

She was hurt by these comments,and they shouldnt have been said,cause there wasnt a reason for it,so people please get a life and move on !

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 04:50 am
Also you spray the bottom and leave it to dry. the spray kills all germs and bacteria! seriously u lot need to think before you just say thiss sorta stuff, its not nice and its not fair.. its like your looking to have us come to back up our friends!

It doesn't kill viruses, though. Not that viruses can be killed because they were never alive in the first place. ANYWAY! It is various viruses that cause gastroenteritis, and only the strictest of hygiene procedures would prevent the spread. Wood can rot, you cannot keep it truly clean.

Like Matt said, breeding is a sore spot on this site for obvious reasons. It's not that that is being questioned here - it is the housing conditions. I believe wooden hutches are inadequate. I'm not asking GPperson to agree with me. I had a wooden hutch at one point and found it exceptionally difficult to clean. The wood absorbed the pee (and hence bacteria), and no amount of disinfectant would get rid of the stains. If the stains are still there, the bacteria are still there. When you have a lot of cavies, is it really viable to leave it to dry completely before you put the bedding back in?

Out of curiosity, how have you helped in the research into OD and prevention of lethals?

Edit: This is all starting up again on other said website. Might be an idea to get this thread closed.

Sawda
09-25-05, 04:52 am
Lethals: Teaching people why it shouldn't be done and making sure we don't breed dalXdal or roan to roan
OD: Breeders world wide are having there satins X-rayed to help studies into OD, if we keep it up this way we may figure out a way yo prevent it

Edit: no one has multiple IDs, your getting worried because people are helping a friend!

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 04:54 am
Lethals: Teaching people why it shouldn't be done and making sure we don't breed dalXdal or roan to roan
OD: Breeders world wide are having there satins X-rayed to help studies into OD, if we keep it up this way we may figure out a way yo prevent it

Edit: no one has multiple IDs, your getting worried because people are helping a friend!

Good to know.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 04:55 am
I am in talks with the lady in with UK, Karen I think she is called and I am recording the satins guineas life, weighing them etc.
I will be having a constulation with a local veterinarian to see if he can x-ray some of them if not all.
I totally understand what you are saying about the hutches and wood, and this is why they are being replaced in the New Year. also with the smalled boar hutches they will be made larger to all cat litter trays so the wood doesnt rot.

EDIT: Well if you feel sorry for my guineas why dont you all send me a C&C cage for my guineas? would that make you happy? LOL

Rinoa
09-25-05, 05:03 am
I don't think there is anything wrong with wooden cages. Hmm somehow this forum is a bit biast being the CAVY CAGES forum. I am not a breeder but I don't have a problem with breeding as long as the guinea pigs are well kept after (i had to restrain myself from saying "piggies" due to the abuse i would recive for not using PROPER terms). By suggesting that it was her fault that all her pigies died, is just ludicrous. Who would ever want to go through that? GPperson is a saint to her piggies, and why would she even get that many if she couldnt look after them and WANTED them to die? who'd do that? Until I get a larger cage, mine are in wooden hutches at night, and a run at day. Which i don't see a problem with. They sleep mostly at night and active in day which is when they are runnig free (like GPpersons are) and they are fine about this. They never seem depressed. however I am upgrading later today, i don't see anything wrong with GPpersons arrangement. Why don't you stop assuming things, which iswhat you have all been doing (no hay..unsupervised..") before you find out the facts. You are so quick to flame. And why are you all so anti breeding? ITS A NATURAL THING GUINEA PIGS DO! Ok, so one or more of your guinea pigs die and soemone says its your fault? I had that happen to me. Its not nice. There is NO way you can 100% guarentee your guinea pigs safety. And hmm...so your guinea pig climbs out of its C&C cage...ITS YOUR FAULT YOU ARE EVIL GUINEA PIG OWNER!! hmm not so fair now is it?

kathrynj
09-25-05, 06:30 am
http://www.petplace.com (http://www.petplace.com/):


Just so you didn't miss that- lack of ... activity is the cause of gastroenteritis- lack of activity due to too-small living quarters. Your pigs died because they could not move around. Enough said.

Lack of activity is not the cause of gastroenteritis! How on earth did you manage to misinterpret that quote you used?
Ist of all I managed to locate it, in TREATMENT for ANTIBIOTIC ASSOCIATED ENTEROTOXEMIA IN GUINEA PIGS. It says that

Antibiotic-associated enterotoxemia is a condition in which the use of antibiotics results in a disruption of the normal intestinal flora. Pathogenic (disease causing) bacteria such as Clostridial organisms, overpopulate the intestinal tract and produce bacterial toxins, or enterotoxins, that cause blood poisoning and diarrhea.






<LI> Antibiotics are controversial. They are the reason the problem occurred in the first place, and yet they may help reduce the numbers of clostridial organisms which are producing the toxins.

Analgesics (pain medications) help alleviate abdominal discomfort. Gastroenteritis will cause gas production and intestinal bloating which can be very uncomfortable. The pain causes guinea pigs to become anorexic and lethargic. The lack of ingested food and activity causes an ileus (slowing or stasis of the gastrointestinal tract) which allows for an increased absorption of the toxins. Banamine® (flunixin meglumine) is a good non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drug (NSAID) that is effective for gastrointestinal pain. Opiods (butorphanol, buprenorphine) are also used.

My interpretation is that antibiotics cause this particular illness, and that analgesics are needed to control the PAIN which causes ANOREXIA AND LETHARGY. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
In short you are accusing someone here of causing this deliberately.

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 06:35 am
There is NO way you can 100% guarentee your guinea pigs safety. And hmm...so your guinea pig climbs out of its C&C cage...ITS YOUR FAULT YOU ARE EVIL GUINEA PIG OWNER!! hmm not so fair now is it?

Must be some talented pig that could climb/jump 14 inches. You are right. No-one can guarantee their pig's safety, but everyone can do their best.

This thread has lived long enough, it's just causing the usual trouble with people from the other site signing up merely to kick up a fuss. How petty. Can a mod close and move please?

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 06:39 am
Aww well this has all blown over my head now, I went to see my happy pigs and give them a big treat of fresh grass.
Hopefully you will all move on and get on with your own lives, and stop interfering with mine.
I never came onto this forum because I know it is against people like me a breeder and someone who shows their animals. When you are getting slagged off you dont sit around? well some of you maybe but I certainly dont.

EDIT: I never came here for this slagging match someone told me about it

kathrynj
09-25-05, 07:02 am
Must be some talented pig that could climb/jump 14 inches. You are right. No-one can guarantee their pig's safety, but everyone can do their best.

This thread has lived long enough, it's just causing the usual trouble with people from the other site signing up merely to kick up a fuss. How petty. Can a mod close and move please?
How rude. I certainly did not sign up specifically for this. This site used to be good and I recommended it. It is increasingly hard to do because of the attitude I see. I was a member before but lost my account, coz I just read and didn't post for too long. I have been the currrent user for at least 5 months.
I merely am pointing out a big misused misinterpreted quote.
There has been lots of name calling and innuendo in this thread. To you who say there is nothing to apologise for I don't want to be your freind, coz that's not how I treat people.
The person involved here is innocent, you have targetted her in this petty thread, while the REAL piggie neglecters and cruelty cases are still there.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-25-05, 07:06 am
if you guys opened your eyeballs and read clearly she says cages have to be low so the piggies have air circulation
So how comes she has some cages which are eye-level??

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 07:08 am
SHE???
I am here you know, my name is Emma or GPPerson.
I have plenty of ventalation in my shed.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-25-05, 07:11 am
Hopefully you will all move on and get on with your own lives, and stop interfering with mine.
You came here.

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 07:12 am
How rude. I certainly did not sign up specifically for this.

I'm sure you didn't. I never said you did. But there are others who have. Not just on this thread but on ones in the past as well.

Please can we agree to disagree. Time to live and let live.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-25-05, 07:15 am
I really think we should end this board. I didn't mean to upset. I just found your website and used that picture of an example of breeder cages. If I knew you'd find out - I wouldn't have put it there. I don't hurt peoples' feeling intentionally. Whoever told you that I posted it shouldn't have told you because it's obvious you're going to get upset about it.

kathrynj
09-25-05, 07:15 am
Oh I forgot my main point! My Cheeky-pooh could climb out of a cage that was 2 and a half cubes high.(we don't use inches here so I assume you were talking about cube sizes) He laughed at lidless c&c enclosures, that meant floor time for him. My first piggie Babe (pre C&C) could climb over the galv wire barrier, I guess about the same height(2.5 cubesapprox)
Maybe I have SUPER_PIGGIES

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 07:16 am
You came here.

Can you not read the same post you took that quote from?

I never came onto this forum because I know it is against people like me a breeder and someone who shows their animals. When you are getting slagged off you dont sit around? well some of you maybe but I certainly dont.

It was you who started this post! If you have a problem please dont gripe about it in *this* forum please confront the person, instead of slagging!

Emma

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 07:22 am
Oh I forgot my main point! My Cheeky-pooh could climb out of a cage that was 2 and a half cubes high.(we don't use inches here so I assume you were talking about cube sizes) He laughed at lidless c&c enclosures, that meant floor time for him. My first piggie Babe (pre C&C) could climb over the galv wire barrier, I guess about the same height(2.5 cubesapprox)
Maybe I have SUPER_PIGGIES

2.5 cubes??? Your piggy could climb nearly a metre? Eh?

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 07:24 am
I really think we should end this board. I didn't mean to upset. I just found your website and used that picture of an example of breeder cages. If I knew you'd find out - I wouldn't have put it there. I don't hurt peoples' feeling intentionally. Whoever told you that I posted it shouldn't have told you because it's obvious you're going to get upset about it.

Think before jumping straight in. Some have as much feelings as others.
Why shouldnt people tell me? I have the right to know, I think your pals would do the same.
I admit that a few of my friends have signed up to stick up for me, but I bet you would do the same
Life is far TOO short(Its been a year since my Daddy died, 23rd) to squabble.

kathrynj
09-25-05, 07:35 am
2.5 cubes??? Your piggy could climb nearly a metre? Eh?
Yeah, no joke! Babe and Cheeky have since gone to piggiy heaven, however my Character(aptly named) has climbed to the top to greet me once, my neighbour saw him do it too, and she was amazed. I opened the lid and just scooped him up lil darling he is.

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 07:36 am
Yeah, no joke! Babe and Cheeky have since gone to piggiy heaven, however my Character(aptly named) has climbed to the top to greet me once, my neighbour saw him do it too, and she was amazed. I opened the lid and just scooped him up lil darling he is.

My Bonnie thinks she's a hamster sometimes, but she always falls over backwards when she tries to climb. Bless her.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 07:59 am
It doesn't kill viruses, though. Not that viruses can be killed because they were never alive in the first place. ANYWAY! It is various viruses that cause gastroenteritis, and only the strictest of hygiene procedures would prevent the spread. Wood can rot, you cannot keep it truly clean.

Like Matt said, breeding is a sore spot on this site for obvious reasons. It's not that that is being questioned here - it is the housing conditions. I believe wooden hutches are inadequate. I'm not asking GPperson to agree with me. I had a wooden hutch at one point and found it exceptionally difficult to clean. The wood absorbed the pee (and hence bacteria), and no amount of disinfectant would get rid of the stains. If the stains are still there, the bacteria are still there. When you have a lot of cavies, is it really viable to leave it to dry completely before you put the bedding back in?


I use this product below, my vet recommended it to me after the illness...
VIRKON S "the ultimate broad spectrum VIRUCIDAL Disinfectant"

"In independant tests proven effective against all 18 virus families affecting man and animals" http://www.antecint.co.uk/main/virkons.htm

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 08:06 am
I use this product below..
VIRKON S "the ultimate broad spectrum VIRUCIDAL Disinfectant"

"In independant tests proven effective against all 18 virus families affecting man and animals" http://www.antecint.co.uk/main/virkons.htm

There is a lot of debate in microbiology about whether or not viruses can be described as alive and hence be killed. They are just bits of DNA so they are not truly alive. I don't doubt that it "kills" some ("denatures" is the word that is better used), but only true, hygienic practice can help prevent the spread of viruses, rather than just slopping on disinfectant. I'm pretty sure (though I can't prove it without reading into it more) that this won't "kill" every virus associated with enteritis. Looks not too bad as far as disinfectants go.

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 09:08 am
I baugth a huge commercial cage and im more then satified with it.

You may be satisfied with it, but is your pig? I had the biggest commercial cage possible at the pet store, came at a cost of $100. I then upgraded to a 2x7 cavycage, which I bought for $35. The moment I put my boys in their together I noticed some thing, oh yes that's right: They were happy! Why don't you save yourself the trouble of arguing the big/small cage thing and go out and make your pig happier, make her a larger cage.

Oh yes, and about that singles boars thing, if breeding boars can't live together, then why don't you make them happier and stop breeding. I don't really care if you're breeding to help with genetics. Have you visited www.cavyspirit.com (http://www.cavyspirit.com)? The pig rescue near me has over a hundred pigs up for adoption. How about, instead of contributing the problem, you help and adopt some of the pigs. I know that even the UK has pig rescues, because there are several members on here from the UK. So don't say there aren't any around you. Oh well. Bottom line: Until we see piggers in bigger cages with enough space to run around then we won't be happy, and most of your pigs won't be either.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 09:19 am
You may be satisfied with it, but is your pig? I had the biggest commercial cage possible at the pet store, came at a cost of $100. I then upgraded to a 2x7 cavycage, which I bought for $35. The moment I put my boys in their together I noticed some thing, oh yes that's right: They were happy! Why don't you save yourself the trouble of arguing the big/small cage thing and go out and make your pig happier, make her a larger cage.

Oh yes, and about that singles boars thing, if breeding boars can't live together, then why don't you make them happier and stop breeding. I don't really care if you're breeding to help with genetics. Have you visited www.cavyspirit.com (http://www.cavyspirit.com/)? The pig rescue near me has over a hundred pigs up for adoption. How about, instead of contributing the problem, you help and adopt some of the pigs. I know that even the UK has pig rescues, because there are several members on here from the UK. So don't say there aren't any around you. Oh well. Bottom line: Until we see piggers in bigger cages with enough space to run around then we won't be happy, and most of your pigs won't be either.

Although my pigs are not in a cc they are really huge hutches which my dad made!! i would love to make a cc but can not find cubes any were?!

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 09:22 am
Where do you live? If there is a target or walmart near you, I'm positive they have them. If not, you might want to ask someone from where you are where they got them. Re you from the UK? I know Piglet has a C&C, perhaps she has some suggestions.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 09:30 am
Yes i do live in the uk! But every where i look there just do not seem to be any!!
But my hutches are very large! But i really want a cc !!
:D

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 09:36 am
I suggest that you post on the UK board and ask if anyone had found cubes near you. That's probably your best bet.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 10:13 am
O rite thank you very much! Will get straight to it!

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 12:54 pm
Basically, members here say "there is no good breeding" - so unfortunately any of those who disagree with that statment are not going to get anywhere - cause mods here are in charge and if they dont like what you're saying you will just get banned.
The moderators do NOT ban anyone without good reason. Just because I or the other mods don't like what someone says does not mean we are going to ban them. There are rules on this forum and if those rules are broken, that will get you banned but not stating your opinions.


And why are you all so anti breeding?
Have you not even noticed that this site is run by a RESCUER. A person who takes in breeder dumps as well as owner surrenders. Maybe you all need to read the Cavy Spirit website in depth and learn something about this site.


How rude. I certainly did not sign up specifically for this. This site used to be good and I recommended it. It is increasingly hard to do because of the attitude I see.
This is in the kitchen where heated discussions belong. If you cant' stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! If you don't like our forum, simply leave.

Now I have some warnings to issue.
Sawda-We don't use chatspeak on this forum. So you are getting a warning not to use it anymore.
SkinnyGuineaPig and GP Person-We don't use foul language/curse words on this forum. You are both getting warnings not to curse anymore.
ilovpiggiesthei-No chatspeak and post properly using proper capitalization and punctuation. This is a warning to do so. I suggest you read http://cavycages.com/forum/announcement.php?f=27&announcementid=7
which are this sites posting rules.

As for closing this thread. No, I won't simply because this thread is in the kitchen where heated discussions are allowed. If T wants to come along later and close it and/or move it to the mod forum, that is at her discretion.

Sawda
09-25-05, 01:05 pm
.
Sawda-We don't use chatspeak on this forum. So you are getting a warning not to use it anymore.

w00p! Go me! i got a warning!

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 01:12 pm
w00p! Go me! i got a warning!

Sawda please behave. The forum rules are as stated so will you stick to them!
Also i know i am knew but have some respect for others please!!

marcrox
09-25-05, 01:16 pm
Now luckDO NOT ever accuse emma of being cruel :censored: u obviously do NOT know emma and sawda! Emma would never!I cannot believe wat little :censored: you are OMG i am so Angry:mad:
U make me sick
Thanks,
Marc


w00p! Go me! i got a warning!
Woo hoo go u sawda

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 01:23 pm
Are you aware at how much shame you put the human race to. That's a very sad reaction and makes you look to be just about 2 years old. Ly just said these rules and you just mentioned the f-word. Wow, you really are a sad litttle person, aren't you?

marcrox
09-25-05, 01:27 pm
Yes i may be sad well accually im 24 so get your math right !:weepy:
Im so sad! and also i couldnt give a :censored: bout the rules!
Now bubuye!
Litle child

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 01:27 pm
Yes you sad person . You act about 2 years of age!I can not understand people like you. I mean how dare you .You sad kid!

Piglet
09-25-05, 01:28 pm
You're so pathetic - can you not stand up for yourself or someone else without swearing? Can you not read? No swearing thank you very much. Now you really do sound irresponsible.

Sawda, "woot, go me". WOW, is like a warning the best thing that you have received in your life?

marcrox
09-25-05, 01:30 pm
Look i dont care! really get this into ur head and stop calling me a kid!

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 01:30 pm
I'd just like to point out that about a quarter of the members here(including myself) are still in highschoo, and have better grammar than you, Marcrox, a 24 year old.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 01:30 pm
That's ok because Marc has crossed the line and will be banned. I will NOT tolerate this behavior. My ban button is at the ready for anyone else who wants to cross the line, especially those that have received warnings.

Sawda
09-25-05, 01:31 pm
Sawda, "woot, go me". WOW, is like a warning the best thing that you have received in your life?Besides my pigs..proberley :)

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 01:31 pm
You're so pathetic - can you not stand up for yourself or someone else without swearing? Can you not read? No swearing thank you very much. Now you really do sound irresponsible.

Sawda, "woot, go me". WOW, is like a warning the best thing that you have received in your life?

Stand Up for myself???
Urm, I have been replying since I heard about this.
I am keeping well out of the swearing.
I my have said slagging a bit to much thats what this is.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 01:31 pm
You're so pathetic - can you not stand up for yourself or someone else without swearing? Can you not read? No swearing thank you very much. Now you really do sound irresponsible.

Sawda, "woot, go me". WOW, is like a warning the best thing that you have received in your life?


Yes swearing is very wrong! As i am a christian this sickens me!:eek: And how dare you be so utterly rude to these people .

Piglet
09-25-05, 01:31 pm
I highly doubt he's 24. Who in their right mind of that age would act like this?

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 01:34 pm
No he can never be 24!
Although i do not know him i really dislike this person!:(

daftscotslass
09-25-05, 01:34 pm
Stand Up for myself???
Urm, I have been replying since I heard about this.
I am keeping well out of the swearing.
I my have said slagging a bit to much thats what this is.

She was referring to Marc, not you. He took it too far.

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 01:35 pm
Stand Up for myself???
Urm, I have been replying since I heard about this.
I am keeping well out of the swearing.
I my have said slagging a bit to much thats what this is.

Just to correct this indescretion, I do believe that Piglet was talking about Marcrox, you're 'friend'.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 01:37 pm
Just to correct this indescretion, I do believe that Piglet was talking about Marcrox, you're 'friend'.

My friend??? I would never let it go this far, maybe someone else told him.
I am 21 years old I know what to say and when to say it.

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 01:39 pm
My friend??? I would never let it go this far, maybe someone else told him.

Sorry, he just said that he knew you and started swearing and letting his mouth run wild.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 01:43 pm
Would anyone else like to be banned along with Marcrox? This is the kitchen and to repeat myself from earlier, heated discussions are allowed and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, but when you start cursing out members, you get banned. I will under no circumstances put up with that type of behavior. Post with some maturity whether you are a kid/teen or adult or this thread will get shut down and moved.

I would take my warnings seriously as I already have one banning under my belt today and will do it again if you push the behavior over the line.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-25-05, 01:44 pm
Emma is a lovley girl and loves her pigs!She take igood care of her pigs!

Sawda
09-25-05, 01:58 pm
Peace...at last *sarcastic grin*

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 02:01 pm
The original discussion is not whether Emma/GP Person can or cannot take care of her pigs, it's about the size of her cages. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on whether she is or is not a good caretaker. I know she is a breeder by her own admission and while I am personally totally against breeding, I can't stop her from doing it, none of us can. We can point her to places to read why it is not good to breed but I wonder if she would even listen or bother to read sites we give her.

This thread started over a website a member here found that uses small breeder block hutches that are less than 1/3rd of the size we advocate here at cavycages. I want to point this thread to a link to a photo of cages that a rescuer uses for her rescue pigs. This idea could be adapted by anyone that has many pigs, be it breeder or non-breeder. These utility shelf cages are worth looking at. http://www.cavycages.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=912&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 02:05 pm
Marcrox, your ploy at rejoining was a sad attempt. I caught you and rebanned you.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 02:12 pm
The original discussion is not whether Emma/GP Person can or cannot take care of her pigs, it's about the size of her cages. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on whether she is or is not a good caretaker. I know she is a breeder by her own admission and while I am personally totally against breeding, I can't stop her from doing it, none of us can. We can point her to places to read why it is not good to breed but I wonder if she would even listen or bother to read sites we give her.

This thread started over a website a member here found that uses small breeder block hutches that are less than 1/3rd of the size we advocate here at cavycages. I want to point this thread to a link to a photo of cages that a rescuer uses for her rescue pigs. This idea could be adapted by anyone that has many pigs, be it breeder or non-breeder. These utility shelf cages are worth looking at. http://www.cavycages.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=912&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

I enjoy breeding and showing and would take not of your sites because I do take animals in to be rehomed if their owners dont want them.
I will agree to disagree.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 02:26 pm
If you are willing to read some sites, I would like to point you to our main page here which is www.cavycages.com. Read why we advocate larger cages with a minimum of 7.5 sq. ft.

http://www.cavyspirit.com/breeding.htm
http://www.cavyspirit.com/responsiblebreeder.htm
http://www.cavyspirit.com/hollister.htm (the hollister story makes me cry)
http://guinealynx.info/healthycavy.html

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 02:48 pm
Well I will take these websites into consideration.
Can you please close this post so others dont start abusing this forum again.

salana
09-25-05, 02:56 pm
GPperson and friends, I believe you are getting seriously bent out of shape over "name-calling" and "innuendo" that aren't really there. I also think you are not showing yourselves as very mature. People who can rationally discuss and disagree about something do NOT feel the need to invite a handful of their friends to praise their character and slam the other side. This discussion is only peripherally related to breeding and I'd like everyone involved to remember that: the issues are entirely related to housing (cage size, cage material, yard time, cagemates). While this forum is anti-breeding, it is more concerned with proper housing. It just happens that breeders and substandard housing tend to go together.

GPperson, a few suggestions about your boars: larger cages really do help boars get along. And while not every combination of two boars in your herd will work out even with more space, I'm willing to bet that with more space and more hidey houses, more boar pairs would work out, even among your stud boars. I have a boar pair that occasionally gets to play (individually) with spayed sows. Then they go back in their 2x5 C&C together and snuggle.

guineapigqueen
09-25-05, 03:22 pm
I have 2 trios of non breeding boars and about 3 pairs of non breeding boars.
I have recently introduced two ex-breeding/showing boars and they are getting along great.
I think they are like humans some get along some dont.
I dont like seeing my boars on their own and as i have stated before I am getting some new hutches made and these will be larger insize so litter pans can be added and mesh dividers, so these unruley boars can still have company.

EDIT: regarding http://www.cavyspirit.com/hollister.htm poor Guineas, why life they must have lead. I would like to say that my pigs are in better hands than them.

cavy_lover
09-25-05, 05:00 pm
Just a quick question Gp person...have you ever actually tried a C & C cage? Members here on this forum have tried large hutches small hutches e.t.c and have then experimented with C & C cages and found they are much more benificial to their pigs well being in general. Prehaps to see for yourself where our perspective on this issue is coming from? Maybe you could build one yourself? Just for 2 pigs or prehaps one. If you see no improvement what so ever, you can resort to your hutches and I wont comment any further.

I just think that members here have tried both alternatives huctches and C & C and have found C & C cages are so much better. If you try it you will see the argument from both points of veiw.

SkinnyGuineaPig
09-25-05, 05:41 pm
You may be satisfied with it, but is your pig? I had the biggest commercial cage possible at the pet store, came at a cost of $100. I then upgraded to a 2x7 cavycage, which I bought for $35. The moment I put my boys in their together I noticed some thing, oh yes that's right: They were happy! Why don't you save yourself the trouble of arguing the big/small cage thing and go out and make your pig happier, make her a larger cage.

I know my piggies love that cage,it's 4 feet in leinght and 2 in wideness,we payed it 150$ and they were move then content.,So please stop dissing people's cages because there not a C&C cage.Starting to really piss me off with all your crap people.Leave GPperson alone and get a :censored: life,theres things way more important then picking on someone who has no reason to be picked on.This is why the world is so corrupted with violence,because of people like the people that braught GP person down MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Slap Maxwell
09-25-05, 05:57 pm
Stop acting like a hypocrite and take your own advice. We don't care if your cage is a C&C or not, just as long as it meets minnimum size requirements and it is safe and in the appropriate location. So please, do the research.

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 06:38 pm
Starting to really piss me off with all your crap people

Ly politely asked that the swearing stop on this thread, and you blatantly ignored her request. In my opinion, that's rude and unneeded, and shows shows just how immature you are.


Leave GPperson alone and get a :censored: life,theres things way more important then picking on someone who has no reason to be picked on

Actually, I have a life. I'm in 4 choirs, cantor at my church, take voice lessons, am in the school plays, and musicals, am on the speech team, drama team, and science club. So really, I don't need to get a life, and you saying it to me is complete hypocrisy because you're the one with nothing to do, apparently, because you continue to respond.


This is why the world is so corrupted with violence,because of people like the people that braught GP person down MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, how did I corrupt the world? By trying to improve animal welfare and the quality of pigger's lives? I'm sorry, I'll have to stop that, won't I?

smoot
09-25-05, 07:00 pm
The world is "corrupted with violence" because some people want to improve the lives of guinea pigs? The world is corrupted because instead of listening to some advice, people get all bent out of shape and decide that they need to declare war on a bunch of people they don't even know. Instead of choosing to ignore someone's opinion (and that's all it was, an opinion), they choose to go onto a forum that is all about roomy cages to support housing guinea pigs in what I would consider tiny spaces. What good could have possibly come out of this, except to instigate a huge argument? And to what end? To defend one person's honor against a bunch of people you don't even know?

I'm glad we're peaving you with all our "crap". Maybe you can find another forum that will happily accept and encourage people to keep quiet and ignore things that they think are wrong. THAT's what makes the world corrupted - people seeing bad things happen and not doing anything about it.

p.s. I think Ly&Pigs does an excellent job of moderating, as always. Thanks for being level-headed and trying to educate people, something that we all should be doing. I am a lowly cavy slave and am entitled to lose my temper occasionally. :D

EDIT: Doc beat me to the "corrupt because we're helping guinea pigs thing?" !

kathrynj
09-25-05, 07:41 pm
If you go to the beginning, it was an attack on gpperson, no advise was offered no politeness at all. Heck she didn't even know about it so how could you be giving her advise?
Now don't get me wrong I'm all for big as poss cages, and love the c&c 's but gpperson is not harming her piggies, I don't believe she ever gave you the dimensions of her cages.
I've seen far too many photo's of piggies in big plastic tubs and the like to know that their is education needed in this area.
A pm to gpperson may have achieved a lot more than the upset that has been the consequence.
I don't agree with the language either, please everyone speak nicely.

Percy's Mom
09-25-05, 07:59 pm
If you go to the beginning, it was an attack on gpperson, no advise was offered no politeness at all. Heck she didn't even know about it so how could you be giving her advise?
Now don't get me wrong I'm all for big as poss cages, and love the c&c 's but gpperson is not harming her piggies, I don't believe she ever gave you the dimensions of her cages.

Unless I'm missing something, it was never an attack on GPPerson. If you want to call it an attack, it was on the woefully small cages in the pictures (that apparently can no longer be accessed) from the link in the initial posting.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 08:14 pm
SkinnyGuineaPig-Warning number 2 for profanity. There will be no more warnings. Curse again on this forum and you will be banned as well.

kathrynj
09-25-05, 08:22 pm
Unless I'm missing something, it was never an attack on GPPerson. If you want to call it an attack, it was on the woefully small cages in the pictures (that apparently can no longer be accessed) from the link in the initial posting.
Page one
docdolittle calls her a ignorant fool
piglet calls her selfish
guineagal and guineagurl suggest she is more interested in winning and money than joy of gp's
rubypiggie wants to jam her in a closet
sagwa bets she doesn't have time to feed and water definately not 5 mins

Now at this stage no advice is in sight heck she isn't even aware of it. This is not helping your cause guys. It is actually hindering it, you are getting people offended, then say 'we only gave advice'. It's bullying.

DocDolittle
09-25-05, 08:31 pm
Actually, several people, including myself, have given her links to several sites for information, and many people have tried to inform her on these things. Frankly, I do think that it's ignorant to keep a pig in a tiny, non-ventilated cage. This is my opinion, and hopefully it's many other's too, because it just is not safe. And no, this thread didn't start as an insult, the started of this thread was strictly speaking about the cage sizes, it then escalated into an argument over care.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 08:36 pm
Kathrynj, why are you continuing to drag stuff up when it was finally stopped. Let go of it and focus your attention somewhere else. GP Person agreed to agree to disagree with us regarding the care of her pigs. Geez, let it go already or we will be right back to the same stuff that was going on before. I personally am tired of it.

x0PiggyPerson0x
09-25-05, 08:51 pm
I know I haven't said anything but I have been following along with the conversation and I agree with Ly. We've had our arguments and I think everyone just needs to say we agree to disagree and bury the hatchet. We may never be able to change GPPerson's views, but I don't quite think that just because her cages don't meet the size we all agree it should be does not mean she's a bad person or she treats her pigs badly.

Now, I'm not saying anyone accused her of that, and I'm not trying to start anything back up again, but hopefully everyone will takes Ly's advice and just drop it.

Ly&Pigs
09-25-05, 08:55 pm
I am talking about agreeing to disagree about the care of her pigs, not the housing issue. The hutches are too small in my opinion but it looks like GP Person is trying to remedy that situation by providing her pigs larger spaces even if they may not meet cavy cages recommended sizes. If anyone has suggestions to add for housing, then by all means post them.

x0PiggyPerson0x
09-25-05, 08:58 pm
Okay, sorry if I was confusing.

kathrynj
09-25-05, 10:49 pm
Kathrynj, why are you continuing to drag stuff up when it was finally stopped. Let go of it and focus your attention somewhere else. GP Person agreed to agree to disagree with us regarding the care of her pigs. Geez, let it go already or we will be right back to the same stuff that was going on before. I personally am tired of it.
I'm not continuing to, I am drawing attention to some misunderstandings. Didn't someone say this was the kitchen? Isn't this the place?
Ly why are you singling me out, I am the only one left discussing this all by myself am I? No.
Please close the thread if you are tired of it.

Sawda
09-26-05, 12:35 am
You can't get chloroplast there.. also i have dogs and cats so i am not allowed a c&c

Sawda
09-26-05, 12:40 am
Stop acting like a hypocrite and take your own advice. We don't care if your cage is a C&C or not, just as long as it meets minnimum size requirements and it is safe and in the appropriate location. So please, do the research.
Well.. hypocrite or not i am not taking advice from you...
my pigs have hutches which they can run around in, one is in a run and closed at night... they run and popcorn..

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 01:20 am
You can't get chloroplast there.. also i have dogs and cats so i am not allowed a c&c

You can't get coroplast where? The UK? Funny how I'm in the UK and managed to make a C&C cage.

I particularly like the shelf idea that Ly posted. I would, however, be concerned about how to keep them warm in the winter in such a setup unless heating is provided.

Gracie
09-26-05, 03:32 am
There have been alot of accusations thrown around in this thread and I think those of you who have accused my friend have been very unfair and cruel. You have NO RIGHT to judge a person just by looking at a photograph.

With regards to my friend making herself a new user name, maybe she has but does that really matter??? You have been rude and cruel and I assume that you have blocked her previous names and in so you have not given her the right to defend herself. Some of the other people who have joined and say that they know her, truly they do know her very well, so she might have made one extra name to be able to defend herself but she hasnt made lots of names to enable her to post under loads of different titles, she isnt like that.

After reading the latest replies on here, I have noticed that the original person who posted the thread hasnt made an apology, do they not think that they should????

Lastly, I run a guinea pig rescue from my home and have done for over 5 years now. I have had 100's of guinea pigs through my door, some in good condition some in terrible condition. Guinea pig welfare is highly important to me and if I felt that something wasnt quite right with my friends guinea pigs I would very kindly speak to her, even though she is at the other end of the UK to me, I would offer help and not be judgemental.

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 03:58 am
That's what this is all about. Someone posted pictures of cages that most people on here would not approve of and would like to comment on. From those pictures, it is hard (well, for me, anyway) to tell that she cares, considering the cage I have for my guinea pigs is much larger (and my original pet store cage was larger, too), and the rescue I know locally has larger cages for the 60-something piggies that she owns. It's not hard to make the cage larger. This is not a personal attack on GPperson, it is a suggestion how she could perhaps make the lives better (note here I say better not "good" - no-one at any point suggested mal-treament). Read the original post. All they state is that the cages are small. They are in my eyes. I wish I could own and rescue cavies. I choose not to because I know I can't provide the space that they deserve.

I don't think any apologies are owed, not by any means. Particularly from the original poster who never said anything personal or detrimental at all. I have photos on my profile and at various other places online. People are free to say what they see fit about them. If they don't agree with me well, that's not my problem now, is it? If you put a picture online, you can't expect that people will not have any views on it whatsoever. Are you actually telling me that you look at a photo, and don't ever pass judgement on its contents? Rubbish. The only people who owe an apology are the ones who have behaved so appallingly, swearing on a forum that is comprised largely of young people. Children, even.

Gracie
09-26-05, 04:05 am
Oh you reckon do you.

Well let me put you straight on this matter.....and hell if i get banned then its your loss not mine.

My cages are a minimum of 2 sq ft and they are boar cages and they are breeders, they also have wire dividers between each cage so they do have company. If I didnt have these wire dividers between them, I would then have a blood bath on my hands; Is this really want you want me to have happen......I dont think so.

This is very obviously an American site and although I am not saying that all American residents who keep piggies talk out of their backside and think that the sun shines out of their :CENSORED:.

YOU BLOODY LOT DO....YOU ARE HYPOCRITES.....RUDE....ARROGANT.....AND AS FOR C&C CAGES I WOULDNT TOUCH THEM WITH A BARGE POLE....THEY ARE NOTHING BUT DANGEROUS WITH THEIR OPEN WIRE SIDES AND I HAVE SEEN MANY PIGS HOUSED IN THEM THAT HAVE SUFFERED BROKEN LEGS WHERE THEY HAVE GOT CAUGHT MOVING AROUND. GIVE ME A WOODEN STURDY BUILT HUTCH ANYDAY OVER THAT COMPLETE :censored:!!!!!!

GO BANNED ME NOW......BLOODY HYPOCRITES....I DONT GIVE A DARN.

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 04:13 am
You have no right to call anyone on here a hypocrit:


they also have wire dividers between each cage


THEY ARE NOTHING BUT DANGEROUS WITH THEIR OPEN WIRE SIDES

It's not my fault you and your friend cannot accept constructive criticism. Yes. My loss, I'm sure.

Gracie
09-26-05, 04:29 am
you have no right to insult my friends cages.

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 04:34 am
I don't understand your logic. You can comment on C&C cages in an insulting manner. I quote:

"AND AS FOR C&C CAGES I WOULDNT TOUCH THEM WITH A BARGE POLE."

But we're not allowed to comment on your friend's wooden hutches? Less of the swearing and typing in caps. If you want to make a point, do it in a more adult manner.

pegs mum
09-26-05, 04:45 am
I have to agree with Gracie, you are all horrid rude arrogant people - I also don't care if I get banned this has to be the most dispicable guinea pig site I've ever visited and I don't intend coming back. You are all horrible and nasty people to pass judgement on things you have no idea about - it's cruel and it's sick. There are probably 2-3 people who are terribly terribly upset because of all the hurtful things that have been said, well I hope you're all pleased with yourselves - you should be ashamed.

You don't love guinea pigs, you love yourselves. This is tantamount to bullying, you are all cowards and I hope you're proud of the damage you've done.

Horrible people, horrible site

cavy_lover
09-26-05, 05:02 am
You can't get coroplast where? The UK? Funny how I'm in the UK and managed to make a C&C cage.

I particularly like the shelf idea that Ly posted. I would, however, be concerned about how to keep them warm in the winter in such a setup unless heating is provided.

You can buy cuddle-cups and make Gp pockets or cosies with fleece inside. The Gp's crawl into these during winter and are kept quite warm:)

As for other comments made I refer to my earlier post. If you have not personally tried C & C cages and only hutches you cannot judge as to whether which is better. Members on this forum have tried both alternatives and have found C & C much more benificial. None of my Gp's have ever been injured in their C & C cage. I urge you to try a C & C cage for at least one or two pigs. Im sure members here will help you with any questions as long as you ask them in a civilised manner.

Cavycages is about guinea pig welfare in regards to housing issues. If you disagree with the site please do not post insulting opinions and just quietly leave. Thankyou.

CavyKind
09-26-05, 05:40 am
Lastly, I run a guinea pig rescue from my home and have done for over 5 years now. I have had 100's of guinea pigs through my door, some in good condition some in terrible condition. Guinea pig welfare is highly important to me and if I felt that something wasnt quite right with my friends guinea pigs I would very kindly speak to her, even though she is at the other end of the UK to me, I would offer help and not be judgemental.

Aaaaah yes, another breeder with a convenient little sideline of running a guinea pig rescue :yawn:
Sorry, but that wont impress many people on here or those genuinely involved with guinea pig welfare.

Let's hope that when you "rehome" your "rescue guinea pigs" you don't advocate tiny wooden cages in a shed?

Barbara

thecalders
09-26-05, 07:25 am
The cage grids are designed to make "boxes" with tops, you can modify a c&c to keep a top on it. You just have to be a tiny little bit innovative in the design for a door or two so you can get the piggies out.

I am sure if you asked many members would be proud to show off there c&c cages that where designed with this problem in mind:D



You can't get chloroplast there.. also i have dogs and cats so i am not allowed a c&c

x0PiggyPerson0x
09-26-05, 07:28 am
Indeed thecalders! I made my own cage with a top because of one very curious cat and a large dog. I just made it out of the grids with two swinging doors for very easy access.

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 07:36 am
This is very obviously an American site

This site was started by an American citizen, yes, but we have members from all over the UK (even Northern Ireland, but I think that's just me), the US, Australia, and Asia. There are members in Italy, Slovenia, Malaysia and Germany, many of whom have had great difficulty finding materials for C&C cages but haven't give up.


THEY ARE NOTHING BUT DANGEROUS WITH THEIR OPEN WIRE SIDES AND I HAVE SEEN MANY PIGS HOUSED IN THEM THAT HAVE SUFFERED BROKEN LEGS WHERE THEY HAVE GOT CAUGHT MOVING AROUND

I suspect that these are wire bottomed cages your pigs got caught on. With tiny gaps. And the cages big enough to move around in. How else could a cavy get his tiny leg stuck in a 2 inch gap?


You don't love guinea pigs, you love yourselves. This is tantamount to bullying, you are all cowards and I hope you're proud of the damage you've done.

Oh really? So we bend over backwards and even occasionally injure ourselves all because we love ourselves? We go to the extreme effort of making our pigs feel happy, loved and comfortable for our sake? We support rescues and shelters brimming with unwanted, unloved, injured, abandoned and petrified animals because we love ourselves?



You can't get chloroplast there.. also i have dogs and cats so i am not allowed a c&c


I have dogs. I have an enclosed C&C. I see no problem there.
I got my correx (another name for coroplast) from a sign makers who delivered it for free to my door.

JiggityJig
09-26-05, 07:42 am
I kept my first pig in approx. two square feet for a time, and tried to convince myself that it was adequate.

Can the pig LIVE that way? Clearly.

Can you LOVE your pig and keep it that way? You could delude yourself into thinking so.

Can a pig be HAPPY living that way? As happy as you would be living in a small prison room, with only room to turn around, where you could never get away from the overwhelming stench of urine. Oh, the wardens give you fresh air by letting you stretch your legs out in the courtyard every day? yes, well, that's better than nothing, but the misery of eating and sleeping, year after year, in those horrific conditions, surely overshadows it.

I converted to C&C cages quite reluctantly, and offered myself every excuse as to why I shouldn't upgrade. I'm not even as adament about the suggested square footage as most of the members here are. But simple human decency and the most basic powers of observation tell you that two square feet isn't enough for anything over the size of a mouse.

I also doubt the ability to treat pigs numbering in the double digits as individuals and beloved pets, but that's another can of worms.

x0PiggyPerson0x
09-26-05, 07:44 am
Well said both of you. I would add on but I can't really think of anything to say that hasn't been covered... :)

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 07:52 am
Being a 10 inch long pig in 24 inches of space is not my idea of being loved and cherished. And for 10 years living like that, I'd have nothing better to do than wheek at whoever walks by, which is what makes the pigs seem happy. In fact, they are bored out of their minds because they simply haven't got a social life for most of the day.


My cages are a minimum of 2 sq ft and they are boar cages and they are breeders, they also have wire dividers between each cage so they do have company. If I didnt have these wire dividers between them, I would then have a blood bath on my hands; Is this really want you want me to have happen......I dont think so.


Try telling this to people who keep 3, 4 and 5 boars together in one cage. You will find that, seeing as how the cage is big enough for all of them, they get on perfectly well.
Yes, you would have serious problems if you introduced your boars to each other by removing the dividers, but have you thought why? The size of the space they are in is the issue here - they don't have enough space to run away and hide from all the other guys.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 09:15 am
Hey Cavy-Cool-Crazy, you forgot Canada! How could you forget Canada!?

I also doubt the person who said they bought a 2X4 foot petstore cage for $150. Lina's tiny cage came to me with the price tag on. It was $125. Now with inflation and the economy the way it is that same cage is probably $150.

That and I have never seen a 2X4 cage in Ontario in a store. A custom cage for sale sure, but not a pet store cage. Also is that the outides lip of the tray or the inside usable dimention? What magical part of Ontario did you say you lived in again?

Gracie
09-26-05, 09:29 am
Being a 10 inch long pig in 24 inches of space is not my idea of being loved and cherished. And for 10 years living like that, I'd have nothing better to do than wheek at whoever walks by, which is what makes the pigs seem happy. In fact, they are bored out of their minds because they simply haven't got a social life for most of the day.



Try telling this to people who keep 3, 4 and 5 boars together in one cage. You will find that, seeing as how the cage is big enough for all of them, they get on perfectly well.
Yes, you would have serious problems if you introduced your boars to each other by removing the dividers, but have you thought why? The size of the space they are in is the issue here - they don't have enough space to run away and hide from all the other guys.

The size is not important here,although I will state that not all guinea pigs are 10" in length and where do you get off assuming that they are.

The boars that are house seperately are that way for a reason, they are breeding boars and they do fight badly when housed together. If I put all my breeding boars together in one large cage, no matter how big it was they would all fight, I know this to be true as I have tried putting them out on the grass in a 6ft x 4ft pen and they still fight. I personally am not going to subject my guinea pigs to fighting just because people like you say they should be housed together. I mean whats more cruel, letting them fight or giving them company by using a wire divider so that they cannot rip each other apart and believe me I have seen the results when people have let this happen.

Yes you probably have members who keep their boars together. I too have young boars housed together and these are very happy, BUT they are not yet used for breeding. Do your members with boars housed together breed them??????? Probably not as you say ALL your members are anti breeding.

Um my mind wonders.......what would you so called guinea pig lovers do about getting guinea pigs in say 10 years time if all us breeders were forced to stop breeding??????

My answer is, you wouldnt have any guinea pigs left to buy as they would die out.


With regard to the person who replied to my message about the harm done to guinea pigs by the wire type cages you all use........My guinea pigs are not the one that have suffered broken legs, it is the guinea pigs that have come via my rescue that have had the broken legs.

Whilst I am mentioning my rescue, they person who said :mad: "oh yeah another breeder calling themselves a rescue on the side" :mad: I will have them know that I started the rescue over 5 years ago, long before I started breeding guinea pigs. I now have a very good reputation and many of my customers, whether they are adoptees of rescues or purchasers of young guinea pigs I have bred myself, come back to me for holiday boarding as well.

Surely if they were not happy with my set up they would not come back. So please dont insult my rescue with calling it a side line, it is far from that and if you want further confirmation about my rescue status I am sure my adoptees will be willing to supply references. As would the RSPCA who very frequently pass people onto me when they cannot help them theirselves.

You all obviously like the c&c cages, but maybe thats because you all keep them inside as well. Where as mine are housed outside in a large shed that is well ventilated and has lots of natural light. The c&c cages just arnt suitable for these living conditions and this is of course apart from the fact that they are dangerous to the guinea pigs themselves.

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 09:37 am
No, you are right. Not all are 10" in length. Pups are a bit smaller. Soem pigs have grown to be one foot in length when they can stretch out. I merely said this as an example.

[QUOTE=Gracie]Um my mind wonders.......what would you so called guinea pig lovers do about getting guinea pigs in say 10 years time if all us breeders were forced to stop breeding??????

We can NEVER get breeders to stop breeding pigs completely, but we are determined to convince them to breed responsibly. Therefore, the breeding pigs would be looked after properly throughout their entire life and the overpopulation of pigs would be reduced hugely.


The c&c cages just arnt suitable for these living conditions and this is of course apart from the fact that they are dangerous to the guinea pigs themselves

Dangerous? How? Explain it to me please.

Susan9608
09-26-05, 09:38 am
To all of you so against C&C Cages .... you don't *have* to use a C&C cage to give your guinea pigs adequate space. I tried C&C cages for awhile, had a variety of different difficulties with them, so I constructed something else, that, while not being a C&C cage, still meets the space recommendations of this site.

If you look at the photo gallery, there is a section called "Alternative Cages." There are many, many examples of people's cages that are *not* C&C cages, but still meet the minimum space recommendations.

The excuses for not giving your guinea pigs the space that they need - you have a dog and cat so C&C cages won't work; C&C cages are dangerous (I cannot fathom how you got that idea); and that the C&C supplies aren't available - seem pretty pathetic to me. If you're handy with tools or even just a little creative and *willing*, you can create some great cages that give your guinea pigs adequate space.

Sawda
09-26-05, 09:42 am
I have dogs. I have an enclosed C&C. I see no problem there.
I got my correx (another name for coroplast) from a sign makers who delivered it for free to my door.

My dogs and cats would knock the cage off the side. its not worth the risk of finding them mangled up one morning.
Also new pet store pigs will proberley be scared. In the wild, predetors would attack from overhead. Getting the pigs out from overhead can panic them.. im not saying it will when there settled.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 09:45 am
Guinea Pigs shouldn't live outside in a shed, they should be inside with thier loving owners. I don't know how I could give my 5 all the attention they need if they were outdoors. I frequently pick up a pig and watch TV or surf the net with them. I hate quarantining my pigs as it means I cannot walk about the house with them, but I'm sure my boar (who has sired a litter before I adopted him. There was a mix up and he was left in a pen with his sisters and mother.) will be very happy to have an older buddy to show him how to be a boarly boar (he is quite the wimp, poor little man)

You must have quite small pigs if your pigs are not at least close to 10" in length. Lina the foster skinny pig, is very tiny. She is 800g when she is not stressed at she sometimes drops to 760g when stressed. (We are working on her social skills). Her body is 8" in length and her head is approx. 2" so she is about 10". So either all you have is pups or your pigs have really really stunted growth patterns. Maybe you should look into a better feed and more veggies.

Sawda, you must have giant cats. My cats could not move my 3X6 if they wanted to. Heck I have a hard enough time moving it and I have 120lb more bulk at my disposal then my cats do.

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 09:49 am
My dogs and cats would knock the cage off the side. its not worth the risk of finding them mangled up one morning.
Also new pet store pigs will proberley be scared. In the wild, predetors would attack from overhead. Getting the pigs out from overhead can panic them.. im not saying it will when there settled.



That's why you use cable ties to make it extremly secure. No dog could snap 5 cable ties off a corner if you went to the trouble of preventing it.

You put the cage on a table rather than on a floor. That way you don't scare them by 'swooping down' on them and the dog doesn't get to knock the cage off. If the dog continues to get at the pigs cage, then you stop the dog getting in. Simple as that.

Pet store pigs are just as scared as pigs from breeders and pet mills.
All pigs are terrified when you first bring them home - it's in their nature! You have the honour of building up trust in them, and you do this by careful movements and planning.

Susan9608
09-26-05, 09:50 am
I really don't understand what is dangerous about a C&C cage. The spacing on the cubes is large enough to prevent a guinea pig from getting his foot stuck in it, while small enough to prevent him from getting his head stuck in it - therefore, I'm confused how guinea pigs are breaking their legs on these cages.

Also, the construction instructions on this site show the coroplast box placed inside the cubes, rather than the cubes being placed inside the coroplast box. So again, I'm confused how these guinea pigs are getting to the cubes to break their legs in the first place.

Again, as I said in an earlier post, giving various reasons why C&C cages won't work is a pretty poor excuse for not giving your guinea pig adequate space. There are many, many alternatives, if you're only *willing* to explore them.

Sawda
09-26-05, 09:51 am
Trust me, my dogs would find a way..
We have a table which we are getting a cage to put on but its not a c&c. its atleast your limits.. i will get pics asap

Myspoiltpiggies
09-26-05, 09:52 am
You can't get chloroplast there.. also i have dogs and cats so i am not allowed a c&c
I ordered ALL the materials for my cages. Correx, grids, cable ties... There are places that deliver to ANYWHERE in the UK. It may cost a bit, but it is worth it. If you want me to give information about the shops I bought my stuff from, contact me:)

I also have a dog and a cat... doesn't mean you can't have a C&C cage. You build a lid for it. There are a few with lids in the Galleries:)

Sabriel
09-26-05, 09:52 am
I have 2 divider walls where there is no Coro box. This allows the pigs to see each other and sniff each other better. I have never seen a foot or any part of my pig, get caught in a grid. Are you maybe thinking of chicken wire or hardware mesh where a nail could get snagged?

salana
09-26-05, 09:56 am
I have a lethal white and I don't think he's quite 10" long when he stretches out. Interestingly, he's never been injured by C&C cages, not even the two he's lived in that had shelves, and you'd think a blind and deaf pig would be at the most risk for these hypothetical injuries.

My other pigs are all 10" long or more.

But I obviously only love myself, not my pigs. This is why, in an apartment that really isn't all that huge, I have a 3x5 and two 2x5s. This is why I have a 2-year-old lethal white. Mmhmm. Well. I obviously don't care anything for my pigs. I mean, I probably treat them like commodities, making them pop out babies to enhance my poor self-esteem. Oh wait.

As far as breeding, let's reiterate this...I have two intact boars that have played with spayed sows. There has been humping and butt-licking. How is this any different to those boars than mating with an intact sow? And yet they get along. Personality is everything!

Also, Gracie, I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you a warning for swearing. Just because I'm American doesn't mean I don't know "bloody" is a swear word in the UK. There is of course the mass of personal insults you've leveled quite indiscriminately at all of us, but...I'll be nice and only warn you for swearing.

Sawda
09-26-05, 10:01 am
I would never neature or spray a pig.. its just something i couldn't do.. i'd be worrried sick

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 10:04 am
Anaesthatizing a pig is no more dangerous than doing so to a cat. Getting a boar neutered is less risky than spaying a sow, but both aren't as dangerous as you might think.

I understand how you feel, but if you go to an experienced vet you should find that your pig will be home within a few hours.

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 10:24 am
I would never neature or spray a pig.. its just something i couldn't do.. i'd be worrried sick

I take it you mean "neuter" and "spay". My female just died after being spayed. She had hugely cystic ovaries that made her pull out her own fur and mount her cagemate, making both their lives miserable. When they operated they also found a tumour in her uterus the size of a golf ball. She lived for 4 days afterward. Are you seriously telling me that if you had a sow with serious medical problems like that, you wouldn't have her spayed if her life depended on it?

thecalders
09-26-05, 10:28 am
I would never neature or spray a pig.. its just something i couldn't do.. i'd be worrried sick

Yet you have no problem with breeding sows? I don't understand, with all the potential risks it just does not make any sence at all. And I am very sure that you "know what you are doing" and that you take all the possible procautions and steps possible to try and prevent fatalities, perhaps you have yet to experiance loosing a sow or babies. However, the fact remains, according to higher placed people within the ACBA there is a 20% chance that the sow will die if breed.:eek:

However, as for your dogs and a C&C cage, I can see your point, in that only you know how resourceful and determined your dogs can be. Hearing you are making a new cage is encouraging, I don't think anyone here disproves of anything but a C&C cage, it is just they advocate there usage for most people as an economical and handy way to build large cages. The most imporrtant factor is cage size, not building materials.lol

Gracie
09-26-05, 10:56 am
Dangerous? How? Explain it to me please.

:expressio Um I think I mentioned this before, broken legs from the wire sections that they are made from.

I have seen many guinea pigs that have suffered broken legs due to these cages and before you say they probably had wire bottoms, they had solid bottoms.

I have seen many people change back from c&c cages and similar designs to the conventional hutch made of wood.

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 10:57 am
A 1 cm thick leg broken in a 2" gap?

I don't have problems with wooden hutches as long as they are a decent enough size. Other than the fact that one of my pigs got infected from sniffing and chewing a wooden hutch, I see few problems.
Cubes and Coroplast are simply my first choice because they are so easy to build on and alter compared to wooden cage/hutches.

Gracie
09-26-05, 11:02 am
A 1 cm thick leg broken in a 2" gap?

Yes thats right. I have seen the results from these wire sections that are used.

If you are wondering how this can happen its simple. The guinea pigs are running or popcorning around and the leg gets caught in the gap. Quite simply a broken leg results, normally at the ankle joint which is the worst one to repair.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 11:03 am
That is impossible! I can see them brusing a leg but not breaking one. What is there to get stuck in? It's like saying I broke my arm by stcikung it out a window and smacking it off the side. It wouldn't break. It would hurt, but it would be fine.

And even if a freak accident did happen why don't you just make higher coro sides instead of putting them back in a tiny cage?

Edin: Running involes feet being close to the ground and popcoring is usually done in the middle of the cage. How did you pigs get their legs over the coro again?

cavy-cool-crazy
09-26-05, 11:06 am
If you are wondering how this can happen its simple. The guinea pigs are running or popcorning around and the leg gets caught in the gap. Quite simply a broken leg results, normally at the ankle joint which is the worst one to repair.



Not in a 2 inch gap. If they were in a big enough C&C then they shouldn't even hit the sides, let alone manage to get their leg through and hit it at such a force that the bone snaps.

Gracie
09-26-05, 11:14 am
Hey look ive seen the results from these cages and i dont like them. If you do fine but im not going to keep going round in circles with you waiting to find out if you think this sort of thing happens.

It does happen and ive seen guinea pigs that it has happened too.

Lets just leave it at that.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 11:20 am
1 person vs How many happy C&C owning people? I think you just want an excuse so you cen sleep well at night with your pigs outside in dinky cages.

Ly&Pigs
09-26-05, 11:37 am
I am adding to Salana's warning to Gracie, we don't shout at members on the board nor do we curse at them. You aren't being banned, but merely warned. If you continue to step over the line with more cursing and shouting then you will be given a 2nd warning. If you fail to heed the 2nd warning, then it can result in banning. We are not the cruel heartless people you are making us out to be. If we didn't love our pigs, we would NOT be so dedicated to them, giving them large spaces so they can run about freely and not be stuck in a tiny toilet of a home.

Breeding and rescuing do NOT go hand in hand. I just don't see how someone who is a breeder adding to the pet overpopulation can call themselves a rescuer unless they are trying to justify their breeding.

Do your members with boars housed together breed them??????? Probably not as you say ALL your members are anti breeding.
I can't say every single member on this site is anti-breeding, but the majority are. The site and forum in of themselves are anti-breeding.

Um my mind wonders.......what would you so called guinea pig lovers do about getting guinea pigs in say 10 years time if all us breeders were forced to stop breeding??????
My answer is, you wouldnt have any guinea pigs left to buy as they would die out.
While it would be nice if all but those rare responsible breeders would stop breeding, that is not likely to happen anytime soon. You know those responsible breeders who breed to better the line and are not out for their own pleasure and gain in breeding. There are also always going to be accidental pregnancies. I have even heard of cases of boars supposedly having been neutered but went on to sire accidental litters because their neutering failed.

It is very rare that a pig ever has gotten hurt in a c&c cage. If you don't want to use a c&c, then by all means don't but at least give your pigs living space that is bigger than a toilet. Would you like to live in a bathroom your whole entire life?

daftscotslass
09-26-05, 11:47 am
Hey look ive seen the results from these cages and i dont like them. If you do fine but im not going to keep going round in circles with you waiting to find out if you think this sort of thing happens.

It does happen and ive seen guinea pigs that it has happened too.

Lets just leave it at that.

I am more interested to know the source of this incident and who it happened to. Did you use C&C cages and have this happen to you? Or did you just make this up to back up your story? I believe, having had piggies in both situations, that having them inside and in a C&C cage makes them happier, healthier animals. I certainly won't watch one die of pneumonia again after living in a hutch in the (unheated but I put a heater in there in the winter) extension of my old house. I learned the hard way, and I really hope you never have to.

CavyKind
09-26-05, 12:06 pm
I would never neature or spray a pig.. its just something i couldn't do.. i'd be worrried sick

I recently had to have a previously rescued sow spayed because she had very large ovarian cysts. Thankfully she recovered well and was soon back with her boyfriend Toffee...a lovely neutered boar.
I don't spay routinely, only for health reasons, we have a good vet and so if it's essential, as in this case, I have to go ahead.

I do neuter rescue boars if they don't like other males. I have neutered routinely too. Why?
Quite simply because they have a much better chance of finding a special forever home if they have been castrated. There have been times when I have had so many unwanted adult male guineas...due to people (like you) breeding, I felt it was the only option.

Barbara

Susan9608
09-26-05, 12:11 pm
I, too, am interested in exactly how a guinea pig broke his leg in a C&C cage. The spacing of the bars in the cubes is simply too far apart to allow a guinea pig to get their leg caught in one. I also don't see how a guinea pig got close enough to the cubes to get his/her leg caught in it ...

But even if that incident actually *did* happen - which I doubt - it's a pretty pathetic excuse for keeping your pig in tiny cages. If you don't like the C&C cages, why not make something else that is of adequate size? If you look at the photo gallery, there is a whole section dedicated to "alternative cages" that are *not* C&C cages, but still meet space requirements.

salana
09-26-05, 12:19 pm
I would never neature or spray a pig.. its just something i couldn't do.. i'd be worrried sick

I was worried sick that Suzi and Cuddles would have die in immense pain from burst ovarian cysts. I suppose perhaps that doesn't concern you as much.

So how does a pig popcorn over a 6" or more coroplast side, stick their leg in the grid, and manage to break it? Obviously it can't happen in ordinary running as the coroplast sides are higher than 99% of guinea pigs are tall. Can you provide a picture of the pig or pigs that have done this? Who owned them?

Slap Maxwell
09-26-05, 12:56 pm
That is exactly what she thinks. I have NEVER heard of this ever happening.

You are trying to falsely justify why you keep your pigs in cramped little litter boxes.

CavyKind
09-26-05, 01:14 pm
Whilst I am mentioning my rescue, they person who said :mad: "oh yeah another breeder calling themselves a rescue on the side" :mad: I will have them know that I started the rescue over 5 years ago, long before I started breeding guinea pigs. I now have a very good reputation and many of my customers, whether they are adoptees of rescues or purchasers of young guinea pigs I have bred myself, come back to me for holiday boarding as well.

Really....
I have been actively involved in guinea pig rescue since 1989...and believe me, I've met many breeder/rescuers in my time. There's never been one I'd "work" with...all simply a waste of time.

One breeder/rescuer, like you, claimed they took in for the RSPCA..when I contacted our local branch...they'd never heard of them !
Another claimed to be a responsible breeder and rescuer...but cheerfully supplied the local large petstore chain with their unwanted baby guineas.
Excuse me if I haven't much time for you. And I'm afraid that goes for my "general animal rescue" friends.

Barbara

Piglet
09-26-05, 01:21 pm
Thank you salana for stating the obvious - the coroplast sides!!! Most people make their sides at least 6 inches high. How is it that their legs can get stuck? Please inform me :)

JiggityJig
09-26-05, 01:22 pm
You know, I really don't like the combative nature this forum sometimes takes on, either, and it kept me from joining for a long time, in fact.

But this:



My dogs and cats would knock the cage off the side. its not worth the risk of finding them mangled up one morning.
Also new pet store pigs will proberley be scared. In the wild, predetors would attack from overhead. Getting the pigs out from overhead can panic them..


I'm sorry, this is nothing but blatant excuses, and lame ones at that.

I used tons of zip ties, and my cage is more than sturdy enough. I have a cat and a LARGE dog, and they don't bother it at all, but if they tried, it is nestled between two larger shelves where they couldn't push it off.

You sd. you were getting a large pet store cage and putting it on a table. Why will your other animals bother a C&C cage, and not a petstore one?

To further address your "concerns", my cage has two stories, and both open from the FRONT.

I looked all over the net looking at examples of cages when considering what to build. To be honest, I too was resistant to building a C&C cage at the time, and I probably would have used any excuse not to. But not on any site or in any post did I ever find anyone who even suggested dangers with C&C cages. However, by all means, exercise some ingenuity and build (A LARGER!) one out of other materials.

I'm usually up for playing devil's advocate, and most often end up sort of rooting for the underdog, but really, Emma and friends, you girls have made absolutely no case for yourselves. Whether you leave this forum and refuse to better the lives of your pigs is up to you, but at the very least, you should stop trying to "defend" your choices, because it just makes you look sillier and sillier.

Piglet
09-26-05, 01:23 pm
Yes, I did call her selfish in a previous post but am I not right in saying so? Could someone please tell me how the pigs are benefiting from giving birth? Why is GPPerson breeding the pigs? The only reason I can think of is for her own pleasure. That is my opinion

LeapOfFaith
09-26-05, 01:27 pm
I worked at a radio station where the control room was about 6'x10'. The control board, scheduling computer, spot/music computer and CD racks reduced the usable space to about 4'x7'. Doing a 5-hour shift for four years in that room was not fun. The old 15'x15' control room overlooking Mobile Bay was much nicer. I can't stand feeling confined, and I can imagine how guinea pigs would feel in a small cage for more than 5 hours a day.

Piglet
09-26-05, 01:29 pm
Exactly - a lot of us have seen the difference in pig behaviour with our own eyes. My room recently got decorated and the pigs are living in a temporary 2x2 cage. They hate it and I can tell. They're longing to be back in there roomy 2x4 (I will be building the new cage this week) So bigger cages ARE always better. Isn't that just common sense, eh?

Ly&Pigs
09-26-05, 02:13 pm
I want to say that I only have 3" coroplast sides on my main level and 4" sides on the upper levels and NOT once have any of my pigs ever gotten hurt from popcorning or just running and playing.

Piglet
09-26-05, 02:15 pm
Come to think of it, my outside play pen has no coroplast on it. Just bare grids - not once have they had an accident in over a year.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 03:11 pm
My coro is the same as Ly&Pigs with the addition of 6 grids that do not have coro at all. 3 divide Kero from the girls. Not having coro made it easier for him to interact with his ladies. I also didn't put coro on one side of Lina's loft so she can see the other pigs better. She is really short and had I added coro there she would not be able to see much.

I have never seen any of my pigs get caught up in the grids. And Kero isn't too bright. If something stupid can be done he finds a way to do it. He has too much time on his hands without a cage mate.

DocDolittle
09-26-05, 03:25 pm
First things first, the most shocking thing I saw in this thread was that a breeder also called herself a rescuer. In my opinion, this comment in it's self was an insult to rescuers everywhere. So you're telling me that you add to the pet overpopulation, but then you also take in pigs? You aren't a rescuer, you're a selfish breeder who's trying to ease your mind because you feeling bad that millions of piggles are killed each year because there are already too many pigs being bred! Wake up!

How did the guinea pig break it's leg? By getting it caught in a grid? So you're telling me that the guinea pig stood directly up against a grid and threw itself at the grid? I find that immensely hard to believe.

Your breeding boars can't live together? That's your reason for not improving their life... here's an idea: stop breeding! I'm sure that your boars would rather have a buddy then be forced to live alone in small cages.

That brings me to another point: how do the legs of the boars get caught in the dangerous C&C cages and they don't get caught in your wire dividers between the pigs? That's a load of hogwash.

And no guinea pigs in the next 10 years? Oh please, what a load of rubbish! Guess what, guinea pigs will never go extinct. Anyway you look at it, there will always be more accidents, more people who just wanted their kids to see the miracle of birth, more people who want a copy of the momma, and more people who, like you, refuse to listen to people like us, who try to improve animal welfare on a daily basis, and visit animal shelters to help and adopt, and can visit that shelter without looking into an animals eye and deluding our selves to seeing that breeding is okay.

And lastly, what you said about this being an American forum, as people have stated, we have hundreds of people from around the world, including your beloved UK, here. And frankly, the Americans who run and moderate this site will do more to further animal welfare in the next month then you will in your whole life.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-26-05, 03:31 pm
First things first, the most shocking thing I saw in this thread was that a breeder also called herself a rescuer. In my opinion, this comment in it's self was an insult to rescuers everywhere. So you're telling me that you add to the pet overpopulation, but then you also take in pigs? You aren't a rescuer, you're a selfish breeder who's trying to ease your mind because you feeling bad that millions of piggles are killed each year because there are already too many pigs being bred! Wake up!

How did the guinea pig break it's leg? By getting it caught in a grid? So you're telling me that the guinea pig stood directly up against a grid and threw itself at the grid? I find that immensely hard to believe.

Your breeding boars can't live together? That's your reason for not improving their life... here's an idea: stop breeding! I'm sure that your boars would rather have a buddy then be forced to live alone in small cages.

That brings me to another point: how do the legs of the boars get caught in the dangerous C&C cages and they don't get caught in your wire dividers between the pigs? That's a load of hogwash.

And no guinea pigs in the next 10 years? Oh please, what a load of rubbish! Guess what, guinea pigs will never go extinct. Anyway you look at it, there will always be more accidents, more people who just wanted their kids to see the miracle of birth, more people who want a copy of the momma, and more people who, like you, refuse to listen to people like us, who try to improve animal welfare on a daily basis, and visit animal shelters to help and adopt, and can visit that shelter without looking into an animals eye and deluding our selves to seeing that breeding is okay.

And lastly, what you said about this being an American forum, as people have stated, we have hundreds of people from around the world, including your beloved UK, here. And frankly, the Americans who run and moderate this site will do more to further animal welfare in the next month then you will in your whole life.

She does take in pigs

Sabriel
09-26-05, 03:32 pm
Isn't Treen a British mod? She's not on here all the time now, as she has a lot to do, but she is a mod and she is from the UK.

DocDolittle
09-26-05, 03:39 pm
She does take in pigs

You think that matters? She also makes more homeless ones.

Piglet
09-26-05, 03:48 pm
"She takes in pigs" - That's only half the story, isn't it? At the same time GPPerson breeds them. What is the point in that? She can't really call herself a rescuer in my opinion.

ilovpiggiesthei
09-26-05, 03:52 pm
ok im not arguing

Piglet
09-26-05, 03:56 pm
That's fine with me - I didn't post so that I could start another slanging match. I'm just telling you the story. BTW, are you from the UK?

ilovpiggiesthei
09-26-05, 04:01 pm
DO U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH US BRITS

Piglet
09-26-05, 04:05 pm
I see you've edited your post - don't want me to F off any more. Nice :)

Actually missy, I'm from London myself. So no, since I'm British my self I don't have a problem. Get the facts straight first before blabbing.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 04:06 pm
You think they could have improved their spelling when they edited, eh?

ilovpiggiesthei
09-26-05, 04:11 pm
Oh i awfuly sorry please forgive my chriastien self!
i bow!

Sabriel
09-26-05, 04:13 pm
We don't want you to bow, we want you to learn how to write. I can hardly read your posts now.

Myspoiltpiggies
09-26-05, 04:17 pm
I'm a Uk-er too... you seem to think all of us are Americans:confused:

DocDolittle
09-26-05, 04:35 pm
Oh i awfuly sorry please forgive my chriastien self!
i bow!

I love how you feel the right to f my good friend Piglet here off, when just a few pages back I believe you said, " Yes, do stop swearing, I'm offended as I'm a christian." And by the way, with worse grammar than that. Please do refraid from swearing, especially whilst being a hypocrite, and learn how to capitalize and punctuate.


Yes swearing is very wrong! As i am a christian this sickens me!:eek: And how dare you be so utterly rude to these people .

Ly&Pigs
09-26-05, 06:30 pm
ilovpiggiesthei-you are getting warning #2 here for shouting (all caps is considered shouting) and for cursing even if you edited it out.

For your information, we do not have anything against Brits or anyone from any country, however, many of us do have problems with breeders.

twofinepigs
09-26-05, 06:45 pm
I'm fanning flames here, no doubt, but I just have to express my confusion. How could one start with rescue and then go on to breeding? It makes no sense at all.

I don't do either one, but I have read many stories of the rescuers. "Took in a pregnant sow." "Two pregnant sows." "One sow, probably pregnant, severe mites." It goes on and on. Too many pigs, too much neglect, too few homes. The care, the expense, the worry, the work, are all staggering. How could one really do this and then turn around AND BREED GUINEA PIGS?

In fact, I don't think you can. It doesn't make any sense at all. I can't believe someone doing the type of rescue I read about, the type that treats each pig as a valuable individual, could possibly breed as well. Nope.

lilipution1013
09-26-05, 06:54 pm
I'm fanning flames here, no doubt, but I just have to express my confusion. How could one start with rescue and then go on to breeding? It makes no sense at all.

I don't do either one, but I have read many stories of the rescuers. "Took in a pregnant sow." "Two pregnant sows." "One sow, probably pregnant, severe mites." It goes on and on. Too many pigs, too much neglect, too few homes. The care, the expense, the worry, the work, are all staggering. How could one really do this and then turn around AND BREED GUINEA PIGS?

In fact, I don't think you can. It doesn't make any sense at all. I can't believe someone doing the type of rescue I read about, the type that treats each pig as a valuable individual, could possibly breed as well. Nope.

I don't understand it either. Obviously guinea pig breeding -- whether for sale or for show -- must be at least somewhat lucrative or people wouldn't do it. Rescuing? Not so much with the moneys. I can understand breeding your own personal piggies, not for sale or for show, but for the pitter patter of pup feet and maybe... I don't know... continuing the bloodline of the animal you love? I had thought about letting one of my pigs have babies, but after reading about the damage it can cause to a sow who's not of the right age, and the high risk of pregnancy and delivery, and of course remembering what happened to my hamster (she was pregnant when we bought her, unbeknownst to everyone, and became sullen and mean after giving birth) decided against it. If I could be guaranteed that my little girl would come out okay, and so would her babies, and I could continue to provide for them the kind of life which makes them happy, well, maybe I would.

But breeding in bulk for show or sale... that makes me sad. Even if they were in the most wonderful environment possible, a piggie paradise, the physical effects of multiple litters on the sow would add up. How would I feel, as a young woman, if my uterus was being used for someone else's profit?

Sabriel
09-26-05, 07:40 pm
Rescuers also tend to hear the pitter patter of little feet. I'm sure most rescues have a pregnant sow come through thier doors at one point.

If someone wants to see the miracle of life so badly they can foster a pregnant animal. I'm sure the rescues wouldn't mind some help once and a while.

Susan9608
09-26-05, 07:44 pm
If someone really wants to see the miracle of life, there are videos you can watch of human babies being conceived, developed, and then delivered. In my opinion, if you're interested in viewing the miracle of life, it would be a lot more beneficial to see the miracle of human life, as opposed to the miracle of guinea pig life. I think that TLC's program, "A Baby Story", also shows babies being delivered, if you don't want to rent those kind of videos.

Sabriel
09-26-05, 07:51 pm
There was a really good video I watched in Grade 8. They show the same video at the Ontario Science Center in the Human Body section if you are there. Heck the whole human body section is educational.

I'm sure they show similar videos and have similar exibits at science centers across the continent.

lilipution1013
09-27-05, 12:38 am
Human births freak me out. I just figure, when my time comes to have kids, I'm not going to actually be able to SEE what's happening, and that's the way it was intended. I've seen some videos in my sexuality and health classes that scared the bejeezus out of me. But from what I've heard, animal births are relatively ... um... clean? Smooth? Easy? I don't know how to describe it. Plus there aren't any screaming women or scarey medical devices. But that is all rather off-topic.

Sabriel, that's a good point about fostering a pregnant animal. I worked at Petco (I know, evil evil, but I was in desperate need of money) and saw too many pregnant hamsters in the quarantine cages, all of whom were in need of good homes. No pregnant guineas, thank goodness. Most of them were adopted out after they gave birth and had weened the babies, but the babies themselves were then sold! AND some of them turned out to be pregnant as well because they weren't sexed and separated early enough. So sad.

Sabriel
09-27-05, 06:28 am
If nature intended women not to see other women's births then it wouldn't have made women such good midwives. There is nothing un-natural about seeing someone else giving birth.

Now if it's not you cup of tea then that's a whole different story. But don't blame nature. Women just cannot give birth alone. It's the way we are built. Walking upright has it's costs. So does having a large brain. We just happen to be the unlucky (or lucky depending on your point of view) mammals that have babies with huge brains while woman have smaller birth canals. With animals that walk on all fours there is more room down there for the birth canal and the offspring, though they can fend for themselves quicker, have smaller brains.

I wouldn't know about cleaner either. The babies still come out full of blood and birth fluid. Besides, humans don't eat the placenta, you'd have to watch the gp eat all of them. Yucky as that is, it's the way nature works.

But if you would rather help animals then humans then that's great! :) We have a lot of human midwives and doctors. Maybe not enough yet, but more then we have helping the animals.

pegs mum
09-27-05, 07:07 am
I would just like to clear something up; pimms pages DO NOT promote breeding, they meerly support any piggie owner be they breeder, pet owner, showers, rescue whatever. They don't judge members like they do on here and I for one think this place is disgusting. I have never met such a big bunch of arogant twisted idiots.

If you were interested in guinea pig welfare you would be concentrating on their happiness more instead of hurling insults at people you don't know. I expect this kind of behaviour from my 7 year old but not grown adults - all of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

And while I'm there I might almost mention the fact that the moderators on here are also a big bunchy of idiots because this topic should have been closed a long time ago, before the mud slinging started. Or is that the ethic around here?

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE - you're a bunch of morons and none of you are capable of showing a little humanity to your fellow human beings so god help your pets

cavy-cool-crazy
09-27-05, 07:25 am
If you were interested in guinea pig welfare you would be concentrating on their happiness more instead of hurling insults at people you don't know. I expect this kind of behaviour from my 7 year old but not grown adults - all of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

We are concentrating on the happiness and welfare of all cavies. The words on all these forums on Cavy Cages are spoken out of extreme concern and love and none are intended to insult anybody. Why would this whole discussion have started if we weren't concerned about them - the size of the accommodation is paramount to the general wellbeing of cavies, and we came across hutches which weren't of the minimum standard expected nowadays.


BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE - you're a bunch of morons and none of you are capable of showing a little humanity to your fellow human beings so god help your pets

If you want to take it like that then fine, there is nothing we can do to convince you that we mean otherwise. But everything we say is out of the intense passion we have for all guinea pigs in this world, not just our own beloved pets.

Sabriel
09-27-05, 07:28 am
Funny, I find that most members posts have been more eloquent then yours. And many of us don't resort to yelling or petty insults (I for one have never called anyne on here a moron) I find it's people like you who come on and make a fuss that are immature. I don't feel the compelling need to prove myself to people I don't even know.

We are just a bunch of people who are passionate about cavy welfare. Cavies are happiest when they are in big cages not popping out babies whenever their owners feel the need.

If people should not be judged by their actions then what should they be judged by? Their words? Actions speak louder then words. I have un altered males and females living in my house. I have never had the temptation to put them together. My pigs mean more to me then that. I would not risk their lives for some foolish desire to see little babies. Your members, by your own admission, do risk their cavies' lives. And I for one will judge a person based on how they treat their animals, thank you very much.

Percy's Mom
09-27-05, 07:43 am
If you were interested in guinea pig welfare you would be concentrating on their happiness more instead of hurling insults at people you don't know. I expect this kind of behaviour from my 7 year old but not grown adults - all of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

And while I'm there I might almost mention the fact that the moderators on here are also a big bunchy of idiots because this topic should have been closed a long time ago, before the mud slinging started. Or is that the ethic around here?


Can you say hypocrite? In one paragraph you say that we should be concentrating on our cavies' happiness instead of hurling insults at each other, and in the next you're calling the mods "a big bunchy of idiots". Take your own advice and don't act like a 7 year old.

There is a reason these kind of discussions are in the "Kitchen" part of the forum. They get heated and passionate and often times people get a bit rude without thinking about it. If you read the first page of this section of postings, it CLEARLY says "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen!" I can certainly see where someone might not want to read postings that escalate to the level of passion and drama that some of these do, but if you've been warned that things might get ugly, you have absolutely no place to complain. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Cavie Cove
09-27-05, 08:07 am
I'm not going to say what i think about what everyone has put but I'm going to be throwing a BIG brick into the works now sorry!

The only thing i disagree with is the way some people are reacting to breeders who do take in rescue guineas aswell as their own.

My hutches are the same as GPpersons.
BUT they have been vetted by our local RSPCA only because we offered to take in any rescue guineas they had in. Now our hutches or "breeding blocks" as some people call then were givin a clean bill of helth so to speak by the RSPCA and now we have in any guineas that the RSPCA have in and they are very very happy with out set up so that must mean they are happy with th sizes of the hutches musn't they?
Yes I breed guinea pigs but the rescue ones always come first.
As for the amount of guineas I have I darn't say how many because I don't want to hear what people will think. Lets just say its more than GPperson.
anyway this is my set up. Some may like but i think ost will not but that doesn't bother me as everyone is entitled to their own but please nothing too bad--i am excpecting some comments fair enough--. Just remember the RSPCA is very very happy with the hutches and set up.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/gerbily/shed045.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/gerbily/shed046.jpg

After reading all the different comments I am shaking just writing this.
As for boars living together some are lucky some arn't just because they are breeding doesn't always meen they won't get along as I have 4 pais and 2 trios living together all have been put with sows at some point.
If you wish to make a nasty comment or have any concerns over the well been of any of my guineas please don't hessitate to E-MAIL me with any comments or concers.
BUT i can see all you'r conserns and worries about breeding guinea pigs as we have seen this many times through just some of the rescues we have in.


Kirsty

Sabriel
09-27-05, 08:13 am
Instead of breeding why don't you use all that space for rescues? Why breed at all? Why add to the problem? You obviously know there is a need for homes for these animals, why take them away by making more? I just don't get your people. You hurt more then you help!

Cavie Cove
09-27-05, 08:16 am
If we have lots of rescues I do slow down the breeding so to speak I breed because I like breeding them thats the only way i can put it but we do also SOMETIMES have guineas that go to a pet sho to be sold BUT we check the shop to make sure its heathy and clean and they even give us any guineas they have in if they are in a bad way. and yes i know what it sounds like! bad! but that way healthy and fit guineas are going to new homes not ill and dying guineas.BUT I don't breed purly to give to the pet shop. How is it adding to the problem? If anything we are helping by taking them in and finding them good loving homes

Cavie Cove
09-27-05, 08:24 am
And also its very rarley we get in any rescue cases

Cavie Cove
09-27-05, 08:46 am
there are a fair few guineas there that ARE rescues that we have had in but we have kept for one reason or another it is quite rare that we do find them homes.We must have atleast 30 guineas-not to mention the ones who have sadly gone to Raonbow Bridge- that we have had in rescued and kept over the 2 years we have been doing the rescue side that we have kept.
We often have guineas from the local animal aution even if its to just get them besacuse they need putting to sleep --as has happened before-- because of the state of them and quite often you will see sows at barly 10 weeks old pregnant!! this we hate!! many a time we have had to help rescue sows to give birth. So quite a bit of that space is taken up with rescue guinea pigs.

Sabriel
09-27-05, 09:07 am
There is no need for breeding. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could fill that shed of yours 4 times over. You know pigs are in the area. You create them. Do you really think all those pigs you sold will stay in loving home forever? It doesn't matter how pretty they are.

Stupid people exist everywhere. I have a beautiful abbyruvian in my bedroom waiting out his quarantine right now. He came into the shelter as a stray! He's gorgeous, but apparently someone didn't want him anymore and they just let him go outside. So it's going to be me who bathes his dry fur, fixes up his spur and watches his broken tooth. It'll be me who gives him his liquid vitamin C just in case, and it'll be me who gives him a forever home.

I don't care why you breed. You are part of the problem. You are aware of the problem. You are not doing anything to fix that problem, so quite frankly I have little respect for you.

Cavie Cove
09-27-05, 09:11 am
Thats fine by me like I said all to there own.
I don't care that you have no respect for me but hey maybe if you did and saw what we do you just might maybr, i'm not sayying you would.
To be honest I do care that the RSPCA respect what we do for them so hey we have the aproval of a top animal resce in the UK so thats all we need.
I really don't mind what you think and i can't change the way you feel.

C&K
09-27-05, 09:18 am
So you are talking about pigs being put to sleep in your area, and breeding at the same time... Nice. So you rescue a few lots, why not rescue them all?

You consider snake food a good place to end up? I am not saying all piggies at petshops end up as bait, but common, you breed, then find the solution to let some other for profit organization rehome your babies, and say this is a good thing?:eek:

I may be misinterpreting this:



there are a fair few guineas there that ARE rescues that we have had in but we have kept for one reason or another it is quite rare that we do find them homes.We must have atleast 30 guineas-not to mention the ones who have sadly gone to Raonbow Bridge- that we have had in rescued and kept over the 2 years we have been doing the rescue side that we have kept.


Are you saying that you can't find homes for the rescue piggies, and instead you are putting more on the market? It hurts my head. But it may be my misunderstanding...

As for the RSPCA being "happy", it does not mean they are up on newer standards, or it may be that they are satisfied that the pigs are clean, fed and watered, most rescues sacrifice space not because it isn't important, just that they need to squeeze in a few extra animals. No one would argue that keeping a dog in a standard rescue kennel for years would be a good thing, however for the short term, it is better to save 10 dogs in cramped quarters then 1 dog in luxury.

C&K
09-27-05, 09:21 am
So it's going to be me who bathes his dry fur, fixes up his spur and watches his broken tooth. It'll be me who gives him his liquid vitamin C just in case, and it'll be me who gives him a forever home.


Just a quick question Sabriel, did all four nails on his front paws get trimed while at the shelter? They missed Barbies outer toes. *Ouch*