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just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, are you not killing an animal every time you dont fertilize an egg, by not breeding, you are basically just killing it a lot earlier

You cannot kill if life hasn't even started yet.

Sparky said:

just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, are you not killing an animal every time you dont fertilize an egg, by not breeding, you are basically just killing it a lot earlier

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Even the right to lifers believe conception starts with fertalization, not ovulation. If we fertalized every existing egg we'd be very overpopulated.

Sparky, why do you have to say that? That is total bushwa.

Thank you Piglets Angel.

Sparky, in my opinion, 90% of everything you say is total crap. The other 10% is is just plain pathetic.

Sparky, people typically tolerate others playing devil's advocate because they bring up legitimate points. I think what you said is nonsense because egg/sperm and animal are not synonyms for a reason. Trust me, not every ejaculation or egg of yours or anyone else's deserves a name, the world is already overpopulated.

Sparky said:

just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, are you not killing an animal every time you dont fertilize an egg, by not breeding, you are basically just killing it a lot earlier

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When making a joke like this, it's common practice to use a smiley or something like that so that people know your statement is not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh, do go talk to someone who wants to listen to your crap. Sorry, but I'm getting sick of people joking about key issues.

Edit: In reply to Sparky, of course.

Sparky, you are wrong. An egg is a cell containing DNA that can replicate, however, until it is fertilized, it just tremains a cell with DNA. Yes, it is a living cell, but it is not an independent being.

It's not fair to blame breeders for every dog/cat/animal that is put down. The overpopulation is a result irresponsible people that refuse to get their pet spayed or neutered. I don't think that breeders frequent animal shelters to drop off the unwanted animals no one wants to buy. However, of course, if the option of buying from a breeder was not there then certainly more people would adopt.

Just my two ¢

People are overbreeding. There are many irresponsible breeders that just sell to anyone including pet stores. They do not screen, or educate, or take returns, or spay/neuter the animals they sell. People see the cute puppy in the pet store window, then just dump them because of their landlord or when they start tearing up their house, or when they have a huge vet bill due toi poor breeding, etc.

I have seen many older animals dumped at a shelter when they were of no use anymore i.e. too old to breed including a beautiful 14 year old golden retriever, unspayed. They don't even bother to take care of the animal in their retirement years.

There is a local rabbit breeder that is trying to dump her stock because she is retiring. Made enough money off her rabbits I guess, but won't take care of her stock like a 'responsible' breeder. There are also a bunch of chihuahuas sitting in another nearby shelter, all confiscated from a backyard breeder. They were poorly bred and sickly.

I dunno. You might say Sparky's got a point. After all, that's the basis of one of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Yay for anti-contraception.

And honestly, from a totally atheistic/agnostic, Ishmael-influenced point of view, humans suffer from overpopulation and overbreeding. Lots of povery-stricken people who can't help how they live, children living their entire childhood years in an orphanage...

Now, I'm not saying that breeding for the sake of breeding is good. No way, no how - totally anti-animal-mills. But seriously, if animals were no longer bred AT ALL, then everything would become extinct. Domesticated animals still exist because we're keeping them here. If a species' way of life works, it lasts. If it doesn't, then it disappears. Not reproducing means disappearance. I agree that the breeding of animals can be wrong, but it has to happen in order for the species to exist. Not breeding guinea pigs means they will not exist anymore.

I understand th erisks that humans and animals all face when it comes to reproduction. I would never breed any of my animals, ever. However, unless those risks are taken, then species will cease to exist. For guinea pigs, it will end up in death 20% of the time, but, unfortunately, it has to happen or there won't be anymore guinea pigs. Fortunately, if this does happen, this doesn't upset any great balance of nature since they're domesticated, and thus, not part of any food chain (except for Ecuadorians who, I'm sure, can find another source of protein).

My pigs are so cute. They're all munching on romaine and popcorning ^.^

So, I suppose if you're a hardcore super-Catholic, then you could say that prevention of breeding is the same as killing. But only if you're a hardcore super-Catholic.

Except that it is part of the human condition that there will always be bad people, criminals, mass-murderers, dishonest / unethical politicians, small-animal breeders, etc. They're not going to disappear altogether. That argument has been made and refuted many times, read some of the past threads.

Also I don't think that is true, even catholics practice birth control, it's called "abstinance". The same way we seperate bulls and sows.

I'm not going to get in a religious discussion, but being evil/bad/flawed is not a part of human nature. It's just a consequence of the Taker culture. If humans were innately messed up, then they wouldn't have made it. They'd have disappeared like the passenger pidgeon, the dodo bird, several sub-species of tiger, and the list goes on, and on, and on.

True, Catholics practice abstinence. I hadn't thought of that. What would the Catholic viewpoint be on sterilzation?

It's written into animals' DNA to reproduce. I'm not going to say that "animals need to experience motherhood" or any of that B.S. because that's giving hte piggies far more advanced emotions than they're capable of experiencing. But it's written into every living creature's DNA to pass on its genes.

They forbid sterilization. Other than abstinance, a married couple can also practice 'rhythm' as a form of birth control (abstaining on certain days during the month). But this type of birth control is not very effective.

Every culture has produced bad people, just as every mythology has villians. Whether you believe it's part of the human 'soul', part of nature, or part of (any) culture in existance, you can't deny there are bad people out there. My point is just that the former argument about wiping out breeders altogether (and driving pigs to extinction) makes no sense since there will always be bad people like breeders out there.

"every sperm is sacred" .. man I love Monty Python.

Ah well, I breed egyptian spiny mice. I do not sell, give away, trade, or anything them... as I am still fairly new to them (only owned them for about 5 years now, breeding 4) and there is a severe lack of CORRECT information out there. They are also very often bred without care of temperament, socialization, anything, by those who do claim to be breeders.. and the others aren't even licensed to breed them and yet they still sell them. They require a USDA license unless you own 3 or fewer breeding females. that means females of ALL species you own (cat, dog, degu, spiny mouse) that are not spayed.

I probably shouldn't defend myself, as I know this is a very heavily rescue-influenced place (I've done and helped rat and mouse rescues many times.. I can say now that I could NEVER breed domestic rats or mice.. there are far too many out there in horrible conditions, and rats can have as many as 15-20 babies, and breed at only 5 weeks of age.. mice younger and more prolific). However I will say sometimes breeding is necessary to ensure healthier lines, with better temperament, better ..well.. all-around pet. I am not knowledgable with cavies so I'm sorry if it does not apply to them...

Spinies are still very much wild animals. I've been working on temperament with my guys, documenting who's mated with who, who was born, what genes they carry (I have three different mutations), their temperament, health, and what they died from and how long they've lived. I maintian a SMALL colony of around 20 spinies, seperated in different enclosures for different reasons, and there's a 20 gallon long with some young males I keep in my bedroom so I can better watch them constantly, as they've developed some tail biting (common in spinies sadly.. it's a learned trait as well as hereditary it seems..) and they were direct desendants of an older spiny who recently died at 4 1/2 years.

not defending myself... I believe in going to rescues before breeders, and breeders before ..well.. everything else.. then pet stores as a last resort. then again I have a giant pouched rat that took me 5 YEARS to track down a baby of... I do know after my ferret passed away last year from adrenal disease (he was a rescue, died the night after his surgery from throwing a blood clot) that I want to look into a GOOD breeder with VERY healthy lines... as I don't know if I could ever go through that again.... I spent almost 1000 dollars and tried doing everything right, and of course it went wrong. although it'd be many years and lots of research on breeders before ever even remotely deciding on getting them again..

I don't know.. sometimes it's nice knowing there are decent responsible breeders out there working on improving their lines.. those who will STOP an entire line if a genetic problem arises, or if tumors crop up. those who track and have tracked their lines for decades past, and keep in contact with everyone who's ever gotten a pet from them. Yes, they exist.. although I don't know if they do with cavies, once again... as I said before I'm a rat person at heart and I do know a VERY select few absolutely wonderful individuals who breed rats.. I only wish to be like that... spinies are far from being perfect, especially when it comes to temperament, but every step in the right direction is a wonderful one..

just for the record: spiny mice have between 1-3 babies per litter. I plan out between 2-3 litters per year, depending on how many are born. The most I've ever had in a litter was 4, and that was once.... the least? I've had MANY consisting of only 1 baby. I believe the small litter size makes it far easier to do what I'm doing and keep all offspring, to monitor everyone's progress. best time to breed them is at 1 year of age when all their qualities show...

I currently have one female satin cream (she carries both agouti and cream and it shows... the cream made the red the agouti color disappear, but she has the tipping of an agouti... common result in crossing the two) who is by far the sweetest and most wonderful spiny I've had yet.. she'll be a year old in October and that is when she will be paired with my lone satin agouti male who has a fairly decent temperament. Yes, she is not "show quality" in the sense that she is a "bad" version of cream.. but her personality and temperament is by far the most wonderful I've had so far... this is actually going to be the only mating I have planned this entire year because I'm pregnant myself, and due in Sept., heh... and I know I won't have any time to spend on properly socializing other litters with a baby, but I do want this litter to happen, and be the most spoiled and best that I have.. it's a special event for me, sorry....

If anyone wants to see them, I'd love to post their photos... Lucy's my sweetie..

and this is probably just one big stupid worthless post as well, but being 19 weeks pregnant and not being able to take my paxil does that to me so bear with me.

I think you sound very responsible in your breeding tactics. I would LOVE to see pictures of all your animals.

I don't think I've ever seen a spiny mouse. Sure, that'd be cool! *runs off to google it*