Parasites Pesky flies and diatomoceous earth

HeatherFeather · Nov 2, 2009

I normally use fleece bedding for my 2 piggies, but I use woodshavings or chopped straw when I go on holidays for ease of use to petsitters. I had my boys on shavings from mid August, right through to Canadian thanksgiving, as I went away a lot during this time. I find the shavings to be a lot less hygenic, and that there are cracks in part of the coro where two layers overlap, and stuff gets wedged in there...and pet sitters don't take it out...ect ect.

Anyhow, this NASTY fly problem developed. These teeny little flies, smaller than fruit flies that hop like a flea. They're definately a fly though. Thousands of them. They seemed to be relishing any poops that were laying around, and damp areas in the corner. I don't think that they were breeding in my boys fur, but they were crawling all through it, and they both have VERY heavy coats (one is a coronet one is a silky).

Last weekend I switched back to fleece, cleaned out the bottom of the cage with vinegar and thought all my worries would be over. No such luck. The flies are still swarming all around the cage by the thousands.

So, I cleaned it all out again (normally I just change top layers of towels daily and the big bottom fleece every 2 weeks) sprayed the bottom of the cage with vinegar and rubbed some diatomoceous earth, maybe 2 tsps through the whole cage (7 X 3 L shaped c&c) into the cracks in the corners.

FOR THE SAKE OF THIS THREAD:If you don't know what DE is, please read up on it before making comment, so as not to clog the flow of this thread. There is LOTS of info online about it.

The type of DE I have is agricultural grade, and we use it all the time for our chickens, both in their feed and their bedding. I know a lot of people feed it to themselves as well as dogs, cats, sheep, alpacas, rabbits and horses for worm and fly control and as a mineral supplement. And I can certainly attest to the fact that it isn't doing any harm to the mouse population in our chicken coop!

I wasn't concerned about breathing at all, as the corners of the cage would be covered in the fleece once the boys go back in. And I didn't use too much, and rubbed it into a damp bottom I had just cleaned.

Anyways, I then decided to put some in their food, so that if the problem has gone into their bodies, that the eggs wouldn't survive, as I'm not sure what kind of fly this is or what its life cycle entails. I put in 1 tsp in a 1 gallon bucket of food. For our chickens we usually use a cup sized scoop in a large sized feed bag.

Then I groomed and bathed the boys, and gave them a haircut, and cleaned their grease glands so NOTHING can stick around their bums at all.

I returned them to the cage, turned on a space heater in the room ect....put extra blankets in their hides...and all seems well.

Then it occured to me that maybe they won't eat their food with the DE in it!!! I'm not sure yet, but I hope I didn't just sacrifice a month's worth of food....

Does anyone else have DE experience with their piggies? Or with these pesky flies?

Thanks in advance!

Heather=^..^=

bpatters · Nov 2, 2009

The DE that I use in my swimming pool filter comes with a big warning not to inhale it, and there's plenty of info on the internet about the lung problems it causes. I clean my pool filter out in the street directly over the drain to keep any animals from inhaling it after it dries, and wear a mask whenever I use it. So I wouldn't be putting it anywhere in my GPs' cage.

Besides, to kill an insect, they have to come into enough contact with it for it to dry out their bodily fluids, and I'm not sure how that would work with flies.

foggycreekcavy · Nov 2, 2009

It's doubtful that your pigs will ingest any of the DE.

You can try to trap the flies with a bottle of something sweet (I can't remember what, maybe wine? There's a thread about it over at Guinea Lynx).

It's best to have your fleece on top of your towels. That way, the moisture leaks through the fleece to the towels underneath, leaving the top layer relatively dry.

HeatherFeather · Nov 2, 2009

BPatters I will quote myself here

"FOR THE SAKE OF THIS THREAD:If you don't know what DE is, please read up on it before making comment, so as not to clog the flow of this thread. There is LOTS of info online about it."

For those who are trying to learn about organic animal husbandry practices and alternatives to using toxins and chemicals- there are several grades of DE available. The type used in swimming pools has the tiniest particles and is often not clean or contaminated with other things. BPatters is correct in stating that it shouldn't be used with humans or animals. This is NOT what I used. I used the agricultural grade, which has many many uses in organic pest control, including dusting animals themselves, food additive, bedding additive, cleaning product....Please read up on it if you care to learn more, there is a lot of information available.

FoggyCreeky: It appears that they are most definately eating their food. The nature of DE is that it sticks to things, so yep they are eating it. I feared that maybe it would taste off and they'd avoid it. And thanks for the advice on the bedding management, but this isn't really the place to discuss it. I'm not new to this; I know how to manage my many layers of fleece, flannel sheets, bath towels, hand towels ect.

For the sake of this thread, and the community learning experience, I am trying to have a conversation with others who may have experienced these flies (they look a lot like a fungus knat, anyone who has greenhouse experience would know those) and who may have use DE with their piggies. I am not questioning the practice of using DE (as organic practices have already proven it safe many many years ago).

A trap with sweet stuff eh? Ok, I've made one of those for fruit flies in my kitchen compost, and I did use red wine and it worked well. I'll set one up asap and see how that goes. There's some advice I can use! Thanks FoggyCreeky.

So far this am, there is still a TONNE of flies inside their hides and crawling through their bedding-I can't figure out where they are all coming from since I took away the soiled bedding, groomed the pigs ect. A whole whack of them also migrated next door into our upstairs bathroom and were swarming on the mirror, the window and in the sink. Vinegar knocked them down and I wiped them up with tp and flushed em.

Heady · Nov 2, 2009

Heather, I'm going to be completely honest...I have no idea what DE is, but I'm reading about it anyway because I'm interested.

My post doesn't have to do with that, though...it has to do with the suggestion foggycreekcavy made and your response to that. I had a huge fruit fly problem, and like both of you, also used a bottle to catch them, however what I used in the bottle was vinegar. This is where my concern comes in. If these flies are similar to fruit flies where they're drawn to something, I was wondering if you using vinegar to clean the cage is why they're still hanging around?

I know I shouldn't have answered because of the DE thing, but I figured I would mention the vinegar thing, as it might be something to consider...

HeatherFeather · Nov 2, 2009

Oh man, that's brilliant!! I think fruit flies are attracted to vinegar. So maybe that's why they're sticking around. I would really like to know where they're coming from so I can break their life cycle. I thought that maybe their life cycle involved the piggies, and that they were coming from the poop even-but when I opened the lidded bucket that I keep the poop in (til I take it to the compost) there was none inside-so I guess not.

Thanks Heady. I think I'll go wipe down the exposed sides with hydrogen peroxide now (my other fav. disinfectant) and see if that does anything to take away the vinegar. I checked under the bedding and they aren't there. They're still swarming any new poops as of right now, and the pigs have had the DE for I guess...a little more than 12 hrs in their food now.

I don't mind at all that you posted-For the sake of education I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a debate on DE and organic management techniques as I felt that there would probably be a lack of informed knowledge on those topics in the forum. I think we all agree its nicer to see people learn and share than to debate.

So far nothing in the wine trap-I did find a tonne of them hopping around under the veggies in the veggie dish I laid out not less than 15 minutes before...

Heady · Nov 2, 2009

You are quite welcome!

Nothing infuriates me more than fruit flies, fleas, and roaches. Thankfully I haven't had a fruit fly infestation in a few years, so no use for bottles and paper tubes!

I can't really think of where they might be coming from, so I don't know what to tell you about that, but I like to use peroxide for cleaning too (it's GREAT to get stains out of carpet)!

This DE stuff is pretty interesting. I'm wondering if that's what my dad-in-law uses in his garden. He said he doesn't use pesticides, but he uses something.

HeatherFeather · Nov 2, 2009

UPDATE: flies are not swarming the new poos as of now!! I guess the DE got through their systems and its working. Pigs seem happy and normal, flies are still a flyin and hoppin all over-there are a few in the trap but not many.

HeatherFeather · Nov 3, 2009

UPDATE: Flies are gone!!! Piggies are happy and healthy. I will leave the DE in their food for one more week, then switch back to untreated food, so I did waste some food in the end.

Heady-DE is used in gardens all the time, it keeps all kinds of bugs away and is totally non-toxic. It is a very small particle though, and you don't want to just throw it all over, or 'dust' it. Its best to use a thin nozzled bottle like a ketchup squeeze to dispense it (often it comes that way). Sometimes the stuff sold in garden centres is ag. grade, sometimes its pool, they don't usually say. Its best not to use it with animals unless its ag grade OR food grade from a health store (which is expensive, I know several people who have eaten the ag. grade just fine).

I hope this info is able to help anyone with a flie problem in the future. After a little research, I believe that the flies are some kind of gnat. They do lay their eggs in poop, and their life cycle is very quick.

Heady · Nov 3, 2009

YAY for no more flies!!!

That's good to know about DE. I'm going to ask dad-in-law if that's what he uses. I tend to think he doesn't use anything at all, but his veggies are always so nice that I would think something is used to keep bugs at bay... When you say the ketchup bottle, is it a paste or still dusty like you mentioned?

HeatherFeather · Nov 3, 2009

still dust. You only use it with water when you're wiping down an animal pen, or adding it to whitewash for the inside of a stall or something. its really effective against slugs and worms and anything that crawls up plants-though i did use it effectively against a nasty red ant problem in my coop this year. I put it all around the areas where they were going, and around the nest, and they promptly moved out and relocated on their own, into the field. My son enjoyed watching the long lines of them carrying off their eggs and food when they moved.

Heady · Nov 3, 2009

I'm going to mention it to him, in case he's looking. He's very good with this kind of stuff, so he probably already knows, but it will give me an excuse to call him and chat

I wish I would have known about it when I lived in Cary!! We moved from PA to NC without coming down first to look at the apartment, and the lady on the phone said we would love living there, it's so nice, blah blah blah. The night we moved in, dad-in-law was with us because he drove the u-haul and there was a bug in the bedroom, so he came in and killed it for me, but wouldn't tell me what it was.

He flew back to NY and I was on the phone with him telling him that the apartment was INFESTED with roaches, and he said that was a roach he killed that night, but didn't tell me because he didn't want me to freak out.

A few months later, there were these tiny, tiny black ants that I didn't notice at first, but while I was sitting on the couch, I started to feel tons of bites, and looked down and the carpet by the patio door and my leg had hundreds of these ants all over. I lifted up the carpet that was against the patio door and realized that there was some concrete broken against the outside of the patio door and the concrete that was under the carpet was broken, so these ants were coming inside that way. Since I had a lot of roach traps and spray, I put one under the carpet and sprayed the broken concrete under the carpet and outside. That took care of most of them, but not all.

That place was such a dump...I could go on and on about it, but thankfully now we live here where the exterminator isn't some kid with an aerosol can and we have no bug problems.

Also, thank you for telling me and teaching me about DE! I know that that probably wasn't your intention when you started the thread, but I love learning about anything I can, and I find that it's easier for me to have someone experienced teach me something, rather than me reading on my own!

***EDIT*** I forgot to say, I bet that was SO cool watching the ants!! I've never seen that sort of thing before, but I do love watching ants (if they're outside) as I find their way of working fascinating!

HeatherFeather · Nov 3, 2009

Hey, great, np, I'm glad that you learned something new. I don't post on here too often, as I'm put off by all the bickering, and don't see enough learning. I guess its mostly a young crowd though

I dunno if DE would work for roaches-its not really something you want to use in any great amount in the house-I used 2 tsps in all, and one was rubbed into the cage corners and one was mixed in food that's mostly in a bin then will be eaten.

Its natural alright-its an ancient soil from pre dinosaur seabeds where billions of tiny sea creatures called diatoms died, and the soil is the remains of their shells. Under a microscope its really sharp, so it works by cutting the bugs bodies, or making them itchy. Its not sharp to big animals like mammals though, feels more like a soft powder, like talc. But you don't want to breathe it...so its mostly used outside, or for eating.

I'm lucky we don't have roaches here, its too cold for them.

Heady · Nov 3, 2009

Some of the bickering is unnecessary and seems to be posted just to get a rise out of people...but there are times I find myself sharing my own thoughts about it.

At first it seemed like a young crowd! I felt out of place, but then I started finding others, and that made me feel more at ease

I felt like nothing could combat roaches, unless I sprayed them directly with that roach killer. It was so gross...I would walk into my kitchen at 3 a.m., turn on the light and some ran but most stayed and it looked like they were hung on the walls like Christmas lights...just sprinkled all over. Even thinking about it makes me want to cry (I cried ALL the time while we lived there because no one would do anything about it). Ick.

That's so interesting to know! I read a bit about it, but apparently didn't get to the part about the seabeds. I think I read that it dries out the insect's exoskeleton and that kills them?

I worried about moving to a warmer climate because of that, but in this apartment, we haven't had any bug issues. I think it's because they actually take care of apartments here.

Biscuit · Nov 3, 2009

HeatherFeather said:
I guess its mostly a young crowd though

Probably not.

Ly&Pigs · Nov 3, 2009

HeatherFeather said:
I don't post on here too often, as I'm put off by all the bickering, and don't see enough learning.

Heady said:
Some of the bickering is unnecessary and seems to be posted just to get a rise out of people...but there are times I find myself sharing my own thoughts about it.

Off-topic Notice: Let's please get back to the original poster's topic! If you want to continue this off-topic discussion, please start a new thread.
Thank you.

Sugar&Ellie · Nov 3, 2009

You're questions have probably already been answered but, I wanted to let you know a few tricks I used whenever I would get fruit flies (even though in your case they don't sound like fruit flies).

We would either use Malt vinegar, apples, in a bowl covered with saran wrap with holes poked into the saran wrap, or rotten apple cider. Usually they would flock to it and they wouldnt be able to get back out of the saran wrap so breeding couldnt flourish.

For cleaning, I think you should use plain old diluted soap and water. Hot water will eliminate most smells, urine, stains and flies will not be attracted to something that has no smell.
Hopefully you get rid of them because if I were you I would be going mad!!

Heady · Nov 3, 2009

Sorry again, Ly!

Sugar&Ellie said:
We would either use Malt vinegar, apples, in a bowl covered with saran wrap with holes poked into the saran wrap, or rotten apple cider. Usually they would flock to it and they wouldnt be able to get back out of the saran wrap so breeding couldnt flourish.

This seems much easier than the bottle thing I've done before. It was always a pain having to roll the paper up just right and tape it to the rinsed out soda bottle with an inch of vinegar at the bottom. I bet if next time I use your method, I would catch more of them! Do you poke the holes with something small, such as a tooth pick? I know it would have to be big enough for them to get in, but small enough so they don't get back out...

vllasher · Dec 16, 2009

I've been taking care of my son's piggy while he is away at school. We have developed a terrible fly problem; I think there are actually at least 2 kinds. I thank you for this thread I found it very helpful. I believe that our flies came from the timothy hay we use. I think there were eggs in one of the bags we bought; and the rest is history. They are all over the house, so I will be trying DE as soon as I can get some.

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