Why don't the upper levels ever count?

I agree with you to a point. I think the lower level should be at least a 2x4 and the upper level at least a 2x2 for the upper level to count. A 1x is not nearly big enough to be counted.

Lets say you had a 3 level 2x4 cage and 6 female pigs. Technically that is a 2x4 per each set of pigs and so room enough (seperates cages), but what if all the pigs wanted to run laps on only one floor? That would cause a problem. In my opinion, it really depends on the situation.

I have a 2 storey cage, the bottom floor meets the requirements for 4 pigs, the top floor is the same size as the bottom floor and can be looked at as a bonus. I agree in that another floor de-clutters the bottom floor, however I strongly believe that the bottom floor should meet the requirements. There are reasons as to why I believe so, including arthritis. Old age brings arthritis (not in all pigs of course), older pigs tend to be more lazy too, and therefore they tend to stick to the bottom level.

wickedrodent said:

at least a 2x2 for the upper level to count. A 1x is not nearly big enough to be counted.

Click to expand...

I disagree somewhat because a 1x whatever can still hold hideys etc. to declutter the ground floor. But as a rule of thumb for what to count, I'd agree with the 2x2 minimum for counting an upper level.

pigsforlife said:

however I strongly believe that the bottom floor should meet the requirements. There are reasons as to why I believe so, including arthritis. Old age brings arthritis (not in all pigs of course), older pigs tend to be more lazy too, and therefore they tend to stick to the bottom level.

Click to expand...

That's a good point about the arthritis, but as you said they also get lazier at that point and probably don't want to run crazy laps all the time either.

Also, assuming that they're not all old at the same time, there will still be younger pigs making use of the upper levels.

I recently went from a 2x7 with a 1x2 loft to a 2x8, because it is easier to clean. I actually think it looks a lot more cluttered and there is less room. Before I had the water bottles and hay racks on the top floor, now it is in one corner of the bottom. I agree that a top loft is a nice bonus to remove clutter and free up room for laps. I have 4 sows and a boar.

Upper levels don't count because it's not continuous space. You may be adding space, but in order for it to be used, the continuity must be broken up. You break up the space on the bottom with the ramp, and the pig must take a detour to use the ramp to get to the additional space upstairs.

If you have a problem with things being too crowded with hidey houses and such, I'd say you probably have too many for the size cage you have. You can also put the hidey houses and food bowls in the center of the cage, rather than pushing them into the corner or on the sides, so that you leave the outer perimeter free for lap running.

Susan9608 said:

Upper levels don't count because it's not continuous space.

Click to expand...

I understand that, but I don't understand why 4 guinea pigs necessarily need more continuous space than 3 (for example). They need more overall space, of course, due to the addition of toys and hidey houses, and the need for there to be space to get away from another pig, but upper levels do help meet those needs.

It doesn't make much sense to me that 4 sows have plenty of continuous space in two separate 2x4's but not in two linked 2x4's. They don't lose that much space to a ramp. In fact, they technically have enough space in two separate 2x3's, but not in two linked 2x4's. They definitely don't lose a whole 1x2 worth of space in each cage from the ramp.

If you have a problem with things being too crowded with hidey houses and such, I'd say you probably have too many for the size cage you have.

Click to expand...

At the moment, I have only one pig in a 2x4. She has a hidey house, a hammock, a tunnel, a hay rack with a litter box under it, and 2 food bowls. It already feels cluttered to me, even with the hidey house and tunnel in the middle of the cage. Before I add another pig, I will definitely add an upper level to at least hold the either hidey houses or the "kitchen" area.

When I do that, even with the loss of a small amount of space to the ramp, the bottom will offer way more usable continuous space than it does now.

She has a hidey house, a hammock, a tunnel, a hay rack with a litter box under it, and 2 food bowls.

Click to expand...

That's an awful lot of stuff ... which is probably why it seems cluttered.

I think one of the other mods would be better at explaining the continuous space thing. When I did have guinea pigs, I never had any upper levels, so I'm not too certain of all the configurations and such. But the forum has always maintained that upper levels do not count because it's not continuous space.

Susan9608 said:

That's an awful lot of stuff ... which is probably why it seems cluttered.

Click to expand...

Well, what would you take out? The hammock doesn't take floor space, and she spends most of her time either in or under the hammock, or in the hidey house or the tunnel. Since she seems to like to hide a lot, that's why we have provider her with lots of places to do so.

Two food bowls are for her pellets and veggies, and the litter box allows us to keep her cage cleaner.

And of course since we have a larger-than-required cage, we do have the space to give her all this stuff and still give her plenty of space to zoom around, kicking litter everywhere. But when we add a second pig (soon, I hope!) I'd definitely want to add another hidey house and possible a separate food bowl if they were to fight over food etc.

But the forum has always maintained that upper levels do not count because it's not continuous space.

Click to expand...

I realize that; that's where I was starting from in this thread. And I've appreciated all the perspectives being shared here. And, not to be argumentative, but I don't find "we've always said so" to be a compelling explanation.

Well, what would you take out? The hammock doesn't take floor space, and she spends most of her time either in or under the hammock, or in the hidey house or the tunnel. Since she seems to like to hide a lot, that's why we have provider her with lots of places to do so.

Click to expand...

My 2x4 seems to get cluttered easily as well, Im upgrading to a 3x4 so they can have more room to run around the sides.

Unfortunatly im a perfectionist so the girls cage is always.. semetrical. lol. I have a litterbox that takes up the back 1x1 corner and the food dishes next to it in the other 1x1 section. The only hideyhouse in the cage is a big towel tent in the middle. The girls really don't like hiding very much and hardly ever used the actually hideyhouses after they had been here a month or so. The overall actual runnaround space is a 2x3 which feels way too small. It going to be great with a 3x4.

Instead of expanding up or out, you can always expand over. 2x to 3x. I don't find them hard to clean if you have them on the floor or on a table that you can walk around to at least 3 sides. I recommend this way more than I do going up. Upper levels are like cleaning 2 seperates cages which is much harder and time consuming. Its better to just keep a main ground floor.

And, not to be argumentative, but I don't find "we've always said so" to be a compelling explanation.

Click to expand...

I wasn't stating the fact that we've always said upper levels don't count to be a compelling explanation; I wasn't stating it to be an explanation at all. Rather, I was stating that yes, that's always been our official policy, but since I never used upper levels, one of the other moderators - who has used upper levels and therefore would be more familiar with them and their space issues - might be better qualified to comment.

I've been looking through the forum, trying to find a better answer for you. However, this statement:

Now, if the same 4 piggies all got along, and there were a ramp between the two levels, suddenly it is not enough space, and the bottom needs to be increased to at least 2x5.

Click to expand...

is what has me confused and troubled.

I don't recall the forum stating anywhere that in an already adequately sized cage having a ramp/upper level decreases the original size of the cage, necessitating making the bottom level bigger. Can you post any links to specific situations where this has been stated?

My understanding is that our rule of thumb is that in a cage that is too small, adding a ramp/upper level does not increase the cage size to an appropriate dimension. I can't find and/or recall anything stating that the opposite is true - that in an appropriately sized cage, adding a ramp/upper level decreases the original size.

If you can post links to threads/posts where that is stated, perhaps that would be helpful in clarifying.

I don't know how well I can explain this and hope that T will come along and explain as these are her creations.

Pigs by nature aren't climbers and many have a hard time using ramps. All ramps are not created equal either. Some are more narrow and longer and some are wider (1/2 grid wide or better), it all depends on what the user uses to make their ramps.

Pigs (especially younger pigs under a year old) love doing mad laps and popcorning all over the place. They need the "extra" room to do this. Being able to do full tilt laps in a larger space is easier than doing full tilt laps in a smaller space. It's like in racing. A 2 mile track is much easier to drive around than a 1/2 mile track. You can go faster and easier on the larger tracks vs. the smaller track.

The more pigs you have, well they all need their little areas of the cage to hang out in.

In the past at various times I've had different cage configurations. I've actually had a cage that was a 1x2 smaller than what it needed to be and I've seen the difference in space myself. A couple years ago I had an almost 3x6 (it was 1x1 short of being a full 3x6) with a 2x2 upper kitchen and a half level 1x3 loft. My 7 girls were happy in this cage. They had tons of room to explore, room to run laps and were overall more happy. My two foster pigs had been adopted out and then I decided to move the rest of the girls from the bedroom back into my living room so they'd get more attention but didn't have the room to build that large of a cage. So I built an L shaped 2x6. A 1x2 section was dedicated to being a hay room.

Even though I only had 5 pigs at this point, they didn't seem as happy in this cage. Moppy stopped doing her full tilt mad laps. Their hideys, toys, dishes and things took up room in the cage. Well the lady that had adopted my fosters couldn't take care of them so she ended up returning them to me so I was back to 7 pigs with a cage that was large enough for 5 but not large enough for 7. I decided to build a loft to make the extra space because I had no room to expand the other cage. The loft I built was 2x5. I moved some of the hideys upstairs and the food dishes. The ramp took up about a 1x1 space on the bottom. Moppy still didn't do full tilt laps in the cage anymore. She would do laps when she was out for floortime though.

Even though the pigs had more room on the main level of their cage and a nice large loft, they still weren't as happy as they had been with the larger main level cage.

So there is a difference between having a larger main level vs. a smaller main level plus upper levels.

If you've read the homepage, https://www.guineapigcages.com, there are reasons listed on why larger is better.

I will do a copy/paste of something off the main page of GPC.

Pet store-sized cages are glorified litter boxes. Should any animal be forced to live in a litter box? We think not. Does 7.5 square feet sound like a lot? It's not really. It is only 30" x 36". In the grander scheme of things, it is still a very small environment for your cavy. Exercise and exploration space are very important for their long-term health and happiness. Cavies need enough room to do "full-tilt laps." Upper levels should not be counted in providing the minimum square footage. In fact, ramps used to provide access to the upper deck usually take away from downstairs exercise space and count against square footage.

Click to expand...

Susan9608 said:

I've been looking through the forum, trying to find a better answer for you. However, this statement:

PhoenixFeather said:

Now, if the same 4 piggies all got along, and there were a ramp between the two levels, suddenly it is not enough space, and the bottom needs to be increased to at least 2x5.

Click to expand...

is what has me confused and troubled.

I don't recall the forum stating anywhere that in an already adequately sized cage having a ramp/upper level decreases the original size of the cage, necessitating making the bottom level bigger. Can you post any links to specific situations where this has been stated?

Click to expand...

You misunderstood what I was trying to say.

A 2x4 is adequate for 2 sows, but not for 4.

If you have two stacked 2x4's with no ramp in between, they are two separate 2x4 cages, each adequate for 2 sows. So you can have 4 sows total in the two cages. (Indeed, you can have 4 sows total in two stacked 2x3 cages according to the guidelines on this site.)

But if you have a ramp, then it's considered only one cage with an upper level. Since the bottom is still 2x4 and 4 sows need a bottom level of at least 2x5, adding the ramp makes the pair of 2x4's suddenly inadequate for the 4 sows.

Now, obviously, when you have a ramp, all 4 piggies could congregate on one level, which would make that level temporarily more crowded than it could ever get when the two 2x4's (or 2x3's) were separate cages, each containing only 2 of the sows at any time. But if they felt crowded, they could always go to the other level. By adding the ramp, you do lose a little floorspace, but you might also be able to consolidate some things and not have duplicates of them (such as hay racks, litter pans, food bowls etc) which would save space overall.

To me it is not logical that two separate stacked 2x3's are considered adequate for 4 sows, but not two ramp-connected stacked 2x4's.

I misunderstood - thanks for clarifying.

I guess I should just bow out of this at this point, because this is where my inexperience shows. I've haven't seen many cages where the upper level was the exact same size as the lower level and the lower level still had enough space to accommodate the pigs. Most of the time, when the upper levels are the same size as the cage below, the lower cage not only has a large ramp, but also has to have some support posts in it, in order to hold up the weight of the large second level. Perhaps that's why 2 ramp connected 2x4 cages aren't considered adequate.

I hope CavySpirit will come along and voice her opinion. Ly's already given hers about different levels ... maybe VJ and Salana and PM could help, too.

Sorry! I hope you find an answer.

To me it is not logical that two separate stacked 2x3's are considered adequate for 4 sows, but not two ramp-connected stacked 2x4's.

Click to expand...

Take those two stacked cages apart and put them side by side and open them up. Then you have not a 2x3 but a 2x6. A 2x6 is the recommended minimum main level floor for 4 pigs. So by stacking them, you are taking away lap running and exploration space.

It's like us humans living in a home. Larger homes are better than smaller homes. We wouldn't like to have a bedroom the size of most bathrooms. We like living areas to be large enough to accomodate our furniture and have room to comfortably move around in. A 2 story human home provides more space for us, but if the downstairs only contained room enough for 1 bedroom and a living room, that wouldn't really be beneficial for us. Most human homes have larger main level spaces than 2nd story spaces. I know if I had a 2 story home, I'd want most of my living space to be downstairs so I wouldn't have to constantly climb the stairs to go upstairs to use a kitchen or bathroom.

I guess in essence, the same principle apply to pigs.

Ly&Pigs said:

Even though I only had 5 pigs at this point, they didn't seem as happy in this cage. Moppy stopped doing her full tilt mad laps.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Ly.

I think it is a great example of why bigger is always better, which I don't dispute. I'm just questioning whether smaller with a loft is always "inadequate".

But I think what Moppy experienced had nothing to do with the adequacy of the space for a certain number of pigs. I think it was more of a minimum lower deck size for her optimal happiness, which in her case was a 3x6 (which may have been influenced by her getting used to running laps in such a space) regardless of how many pigs she was sharing with. But what I'm suggesting is that if you'd gotten 5 more pigs (when you had the 7 pigs in the almost-3x6 plus small decks), and changed your two little upper decks to a complete almost-3x6 upper deck, to avoid cluttering the main floor and to make additional "spreading out" space, and taking care not to place the bottom of the ramp in the way of the usual lap path, she (and the other pigs) would likely have still been happy with that 3x6 base, and still been able to use it for mad laps, even though a 3x6 alone would be wholly inadequate for 12 pigs. (Of course, it would have been a pain to clean!)

The size of the base certainly does matter, which is why it should never be allowed to go below a certain minimum. My point is that once you have a good sized base, I'm not convinced that it hurts to add more pigs without enlarging the base, as long as you add spreading-out space upstairs.

I think the insistence that all of the space be on the lower level prevents otherwise great piggy parents with floor-space issues from keeping as many pigs as they might otherwise keep happy and healthy.

I don’t think we are questioning what an ideal setup is. What would be ideal for my own living quarters is a 4 bedroom 2.5 bath house with separate formal dining room and finished basement with a gym home theater pool table and bar. What myself and my girlfriend actually live in and is acceptable is a 750sq/ft one bedroom apartment.

When ideal is not an option and people had to live in an apartment they stack the units one on top of another. Each unit is had an acceptable amount of living space and is self sufficient. I can easily live out my life in my unit and when I want to go visit my neighbor I do have to get off my lazy but and walk downstairs. If I lived in a house id just have to go out my front door and not deal with stairs.

Or even single family homes allot of times have all the bedrooms upstairs. You could put all the houses upstairs and have haylofts water bottles and a feed dish on both floors with the bottom being mostly open. You could even put the hayloft under the ramp to maximize your freespace on the bottom floor.

The original poster has 4 sows and the minimum and acceptable amount is a 2x3 for two and she is building her "apartments" within a 2x4 space so even with the space taken up by the ramp there will be two full 2x3.5 units that can be fitted with everything each pair needs. When they want to visit one or both can go up or down and if it becomes a crowded they can go back home.


I think we have all established what would be ideal is a 2x6 or larger. But when you simply don’t have that space you have to make compromises. I’m sure they might be a bit happier in one larger open space, but I doubt they would be unhappy having to climb down stairs to visit there piggy friends.

Allot of people have come up with reasons why a larger one level is ideal but none so far that I have seen explaining why two 2x4 is unacceptable and will have a negative effect on the piggy’s instead of just less of a positive.

Ly&Pigs said:

It's like us humans living in a home. Larger homes are better than smaller homes. We wouldn't like to have a bedroom the size of most bathrooms. We like living areas to be large enough to accomodate our furniture and have room to comfortably move around in. A 2 story human home provides more space for us, but if the downstairs only contained room enough for 1 bedroom and a living room, that wouldn't really be beneficial for us. Most human homes have larger main level spaces than 2nd story spaces. I know if I had a 2 story home, I'd want most of my living space to be downstairs so I wouldn't have to constantly climb the stairs to go upstairs to use a kitchen or bathroom.

I guess in essence, the same principle apply to pigs.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't think this analysis really works. I used to live in a one-story 1000 square foot house (with 5 people). It was pretty tight. I would have said that 1000 sq ft was the minimum amount of space that was adequate for our family (though I'm sure many people live in much less space!) We would have all been thrilled if we had even a tiny upstairs to hold a couple of bedrooms (so the 3 kids didn't have to share) or a small office space (to get my husband's office out of the kitchen). And I can tell you in an instant, that I would have taken a 2-story house with 700 sq ft on each floor in an instant, even if the only bathroom were upstairs. (I have a lot of friends whose only bathroom is upstairs -- it seems to be a semi-standard duplex design around here -- and while not the most convenient, it's hardly a big deal while everyone in the house is young and able bodied.)

So... I don't really think the people argument works. Like pigs, I wouldn't be happy with 100 square feet on each of 20 floors, but once a floor has any usable space, I think it absolutely all counts for most people.

Ly&Pigs said:

Take those two stacked cages apart and put them side by side and open them up. Then you have not a 2x3 but a 2x6. A 2x6 is the recommended minimum main level floor for 4 pigs. So by stacking them, you are taking away lap running and exploration space.

Click to expand...

Sure, a 2x6 would be better than a 2x3 for 2 pigs also. But the 2x3 is considered adequate for 2 pigs even though they don't have that much lap running and exploration space.

If you take 4 pigs that have been in pairs in 2x3's and put them into stacked 2x4's you're not giving them as much lap-running space as a 2x6, but you are giving them more lap-running space than any of them had in 2x3's. And you're giving them more exploration space, and more total space to spread out, than a 2x6.

So, if you have 4 pigs together, they each need to be able to run larger laps than they needed to run when they lived in pairs?

This is my dilemma. I have 3 sows. 2 are in a 2x4 cage and 1 is still in quarantine. Now, in my apartment I have room for a 2x4, maybe a 2x5 but that is really pushing it. There's a chance I'll get a fourth sow in a few months from a friend who has an accidental litter. Now, this is how I see my options.
1) I can do a 2x5 for the four of them, possibly with a little 1x2 or 1x3 coming off the side to add a bit more space. This is possible in my apartment but leaves very little room for me to walk around, etc.
2) I can do stacked 2x4s, with two sows in one cage and two sows in the other. This is waaaay easier on the floor space for me. However, it means the two groups never really get to live together, except for floor time. Now if I were to build a ramp to connect the two levels, why does that second cage suddenly not count? Is it because guinea pigs naturally want to be lower and will hang out on the lower level more often? I just get confused, because without the ramp, you get adequate space but with fewer friends, and with the ramp, you get technically more space, yet somehow less space, and more friends.

that said, I don't know nearly as much about piggies as the mods here. And maybe the girls would be okay living apart if they got to have floor time together every day.