Why do most cavy foods have menadione?

piggyluvr · Aug 27, 2007

It's not in premium dog or cat foods and not approved for human consumption, yet it seems to be used almost universally in guinea pig food.

Even the better foods like Cavy Cuisine have it. It is known to cause NUMEROUS health issues.

In all the forums I've visited I've never heard one person talk about this ingredient. I wonder if it's just not well known in guinea pig circles? If not, I'd really like to get the word out there and then people will be able to balance different factors and decide if the risk is worth it. Here's an excellent article that I reference often:

(broken link removed)

I'm planning to switch from Kaytee Timothy Complete to something that the store across the street just started carrying, Zupreem. This is THE first guinea pig food I've seen without menadione.

Here are the ingredients and GA for Zupreem Nature's Promise Timothy:

Sun-cured Timothy Grass Hay, Ground Corn, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dextrose, Calcium Carbonate, Flaxseed Meal, Salt, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Ground Vegetables (carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, and spinach), Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 18.0% min
Crude Fat 1.0% min
Crude Fiber 22.0% max
Moisture 12.0% max
Ascorbic Acid 500 ppm

It has slightly less fiber, but I give lots of Timothy hay and veggies, so they're getting plenty of roughage.

Here are the ingredients and GA for Cavy Cuisine:

Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Salt, L-ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Vitamin C), Limestone, Yeast Culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (tocopherol), Ascorbic Acid, Colloidal Silica, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Riboflavin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, Magnesium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Mineral Oil, Calcium Idodate, Potassium Chloride

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 14.00 %
Crude Fat (min) 1.50 %
Crude Fiber (min) 25.00 %
Crude Fiber (max) 28.00 %

Jennicat · Aug 27, 2007

Unfortunately, the Zupreem has a slew of other undesirable products instead of the ingredient that Oxbow is utilizing.

Sun-cured Timothy Grass Hay, Ground Corn, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dextrose, Calcium Carbonate, Flaxseed Meal, Salt, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Ground Vegetables (carrots, celery, beets, parsley, lettuce, watercress, and spinach), Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Also, looking at all the "ground vegetables", including spinach, I'd wonder what the Ca

ratio is in the food itself.

I think that your concern is a valid one... however, evaluating overall quality, I feel like feeding them a small amount of the vitamin K derivative vs. feeding them a huge amount of a low quality ingredients is a difficult ethical choice.

aqh88 · Aug 27, 2007

Two things to keep in mind. We are comparing here at least omnivores(many say dogs are complete carnivores) to herbivores. Their digestive tract and ability to use certain things especially vitamins made by bacteria in the digestive tract is considerably different. It may not be as much of an issue for pigs to digest menadione as dogs and cats.

2nd pigs are not suppose to be fed on mostly pellets whereas dogs are fed on mostly kibble. That is all many dogs eat and so they are constantly ingesting whatever is in the kibble. Pigs are only suppose to get around 1/8th cup of pellets a day compared to the several pounds of hay and fresh foods they can eat in that same day. These things may make up the reason why this ingredient has not been viewed as dangerous to pigs as it is to dogs and cats.

I'm not saying it's a great ingredient to add and if there is a better alternative it might be worth it to spread the word. There is no perfect pellet though. Pellets like oxbow and KM's are the closest you can get. There are many reasons some people feed pelletless diets just like there are many reasons some people feed dogs raw diets. The fact no processed pelleted or kibbled food is perfect is one of them. That's one reason hay and veggies are so important for your pigs. Pellets should only be there to provide nutrients that might be missing from the rest of the diet.

Ly&Pigs · Aug 27, 2007

Zupreem is a worse food than the timothy complete and the kaytee feed line isn't very good either. Too much corn and beet products and things like brewer's yeast.

When you look at ingredients lists, the first things listed are in the largest quantities. So in zupreem, the second, third and fourth ingredients are corn and beet products. I'd rather take a tiny bit of mendione in food than a majority of corn and beet products.

piggyluvr · Aug 27, 2007

Thanks for all the replies!!

I'm familiar with the ingredients being listed in order of their amount. But, I guess I'm coming from the viewpoint of dog food and with dogs it would be MUCH better to see corn or beet pulp in the ingredient list than wheat middlings or soybean hulls. So that is definitely a good thing to keep in mind.

As far as brewer's yeast not being a good ingredient- Cavy Cuisine has yeast culture; they're the same strain of yeast. In any case, Kaytee Timothy Complete doesn't have any yeast ingredient. Most of the ingredients in those two foods are very similar. Kaytee Complete does have two good ingredients that Cavy Cuisine does not have- yucca schidgera and probiotics. Of course it does have ethoxyquin, which is not the best preservative. The first ingredient in Cavy Cuisine is timothy grass meal as opposed to timothy grass, but with a piggy having unlimited access to timothy hay I don't see that as being a big issues. Overall, it looks to me that the two foods are equal quality.

Cavy Cuisine
Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Salt, L-ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Vitamin C), Limestone, Yeast Culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (tocopherol), Ascorbic Acid, Colloidal Silica, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Riboflavin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, Magnesium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Manganese Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Mineral Oil, Calcium Idodate, Potassium Chloride

Kaytee Timothy Complete
Sun-cured Timothy Grass Hay, Wheat Middlings, Ground Wheat, Oat Hulls, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Cane Molasses, Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), DL-Methionine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ferrous Carbonate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Copper Oxide, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate,Dried A. oryzae Fermentation Extract (source of protease), Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite.

aqh88 · Aug 27, 2007

with dogs it would be MUCH better to see corn or beet pulp in the ingredient list than wheat middlings or soybean hulls.

Eh? Since when? Beet pulp I don't take much issue with although some people do so long as it's in limited amounts in food for omnivores or carnivores. Corn though is just as bad for dogs as it is for pigs. Maybe even worse. I'd much rather see wheat or soybean ingredients than corn. If I read an ingredients list and see corn I don't read any farther. I put it back on the shelf and keep walking. Now what or soybeans I'll forgive if they aren't too high on the ingredients list and most everything else looks good. They can still be a somewhat useful ingredient, are lower in carbohydrates than corn, and less likely to cause allergies.

Your missing somethings here and others you have wrong. Probiotics are not good in most cases. They can cause digestive upset and rarely if ever help a pig unless we are talking about seperate probiotics used specifically for treatment of illnesses. Adding it to a food they are fed daily in such a broad way(not even specific for pigs) does not help but can cause problems. Kaytee has alot more grains listed. If you look at oxbow the ingredients are much simpler meaning there are less other things and the timothy hay is included in a higher amount. Ethoxyquin is not in the least bit questionable like menadione but definitely know to be bad. It should be avoided as much as possible and most would feed no pellets before they fed one with ethoxyquin. That alone makes many people completely avoid kaytee.

Ly&Pigs · Aug 27, 2007

It seems you are trying to take what you know about dog food and trying to apply it to cavy foods. It just doesn't work that way. What may or may not be fine for one species doesn't mean it's ok or not ok for another species.
Have you seen this page regarding cavy pellets? Guinea Lynx :: Pellets

As far as comparing Cavy Cuisine and Kaytee, it's like apples and oranges. There is no way they are equal in any world. Cavy Cuisine and Cavy Performance are top of the line foods in the guinea pig world, Kaytee is no where near the top.

Piggersrule · Aug 28, 2007

Vitamin K comes in different forms. Vit. K1(Phylloquinone) is a natural form found in plants and leafy greens and cooking oils made from plants. Vit. K2 (Menaquinone)is also a natural form found in chicken liver, cow(beef) liver, egg yolks, cheese and soy products. Vit. K3 is known as Menadione is the synthetic compound form or manmade. Natural forms of Vit. K are fat-soluble and produced in the intestines. Vit. K3 is not allowed to be used as a supplement in human consumption because of the know problems associated with it. Pet food companies use the form K3 because it is cheaper to purchase and easier to store. Companies claim that it is more stable form than the K1 and K2 forms which is not true.

Piggersrule · Aug 28, 2007

Both Oxbow and KM use Vit. K3 Menadione in their pellets.

piggyluvr · Aug 28, 2007

aqh88 said:
Eh? Since when? Beet pulp I don't take much issue with although some people do so long as it's in limited amounts in food for omnivores or carnivores. Corn though is just as bad for dogs as it is for pigs. Maybe even worse. I'd much rather see wheat or soybean ingredients than corn. If I read an ingredients list and see corn I don't read any farther. I put it back on the shelf and keep walking. Now what or soybeans I'll forgive if they aren't too high on the ingredients list and most everything else looks good. They can still be a somewhat useful ingredient, are lower in carbohydrates than corn, and less likely to cause allergies.

Your missing somethings here and others you have wrong. Probiotics are not good in most cases. They can cause digestive upset and rarely if ever help a pig unless we are talking about seperate probiotics used specifically for treatment of illnesses. Adding it to a food they are fed daily in such a broad way(not even specific for pigs) does not help but can cause problems.

I agree with some of the things you're saying, but not what's quoted above. Beet pulp is a prebiotic and corn is at least a very digestible carbohydrate. Not that I would particularly WANT either of those in a dog food, but I would much prefer them to wheat middlings and soybeans.

Again with dog food, it's a GOOD thing to see probiotics in an ingredient list. It's also good for humans to have probiotics added to their diet, usually in yogurt. I've only ever heard of probiotics helping with digestive issues, not making it worse. Can you point towards anything with that info?

Anyway, the main point of my post is that menadione is still included in every guinea pig food I've seen, including the "best" one. It makes absolutely no sense for Oxbow to work hard at developing a healthy guinea pig food and then include an ingredient that's well known for causing health problems.

aqh88 · Aug 28, 2007

Corn is less digestible than wheat or soy. For example from: (broken link removed)

Digestibility depends on quality and type of grain used: rice (72%) is for example more digestible than wheat (60%) or corn (54%). Dogs can absorb the digestible carbohydrates from rice almost entirely, of the other grains about 20% are not absorbed. Indigestible fiber from grains contribute to intestinal health.

Most research and opinions I've read agree with that and place corn amongst the worst and hardest to digest of all grains.
Carbohydrates are also a bad thing in most any pet food from dogs and cats to guinea pigs and horses. Fats are much more easily digested and form a better energy source than carbohydrates. A diet higher in fats and very low in carbohydrates actually leads to less weight gain than a diet low in fat but still high in carbohydrates. This actually makes most dog foods marketed for weight loss worse than normal dog foods for improving your pet's weight because they replace high fat ingredients with grains high in carbohydrates. It actually has the opposite effect your looking for. While carbohydrates have their purpose for most pets you want the lowest possible carbohydrate level possible and that means avoiding grains that are too high in carbohydrates. Overall corn has very few good points and lots of bad so it would be better to not see it used in any animal feed that I can think of. Even livestock do much better without it.

Now back to the menadione. I don't think we're going to solve this here and now. You can try emailing oxbow and see what they have to say about it (broken link removed). KM is also good about hearing opinions and voicing her reasons for choosing a particular ingredient over others (broken link removed). It may be that the risks of menadione are less to pigs than the risk of having no vit k and the other forms are not useable in pellets for one reason or another. Such things you'd have to take up with a manufacturer to find out the truth. Then we would be best off trying to hunt down research or scientific studies done on herbivorous animals that have a similar digestive tract instead of applying opinions from it's use with carnivorous and omnivorous animals to guinea pig pellets.

piggyluvr · Aug 28, 2007

aqh88 said:
Corn is less digestible than wheat or soy. For example from: (broken link removed)

Most research and opinions I've read agree with that and place corn amongst the worst and hardest to digest of all grains.
Carbohydrates are also a bad thing in most any pet food from dogs and cats to guinea pigs and horses. Fats are much more easily digested and form a better energy source than carbohydrates. A diet higher in fats and very low in carbohydrates actually leads to less weight gain than a diet low in fat but still high in carbohydrates. This actually makes most dog foods marketed for weight loss worse than normal dog foods for improving your pet's weight because they replace high fat ingredients with grains high in carbohydrates. It actually has the opposite effect your looking for. While carbohydrates have their purpose for most pets you want the lowest possible carbohydrate level possible and that means avoiding grains that are too high in carbohydrates. Overall corn has very few good points and lots of bad so it would be better to not see it used in any animal feed that I can think of. Even livestock do much better without it.

Gah, I know those things. I read the dog food project frequently and belong to the forum.

I realize that dogs utilize fat better than carbohydrates. I didn't actually say anything about fat. And I also know that grains are not a good ingredient for dogs. I was simply saying that IF I was looking at ingredient lists with corn, wheat middlings and soy, I'd pick the one with corn. On the myths page it doesn't say anything about soy being more digestible than grain. Also, I'd choose corn over wheat because wheat is a high gluten grain and corn is gluten free.

I definitely believe in grain free foods for dogs. Right now I'm feeding Wellness CORE and planning to switch to Orijen.

Piggersrule · Aug 28, 2007

I read an article stating that Vit.K3 menadione is very harmful to people but hasn't caused enough problems in animals to discontinue the use of Vit.K3.

aqh88 · Aug 30, 2007

I was trying to say why there was no reason to pick corn in a dog food over anything. Or actually in any animal food at all. I still see no reason. The only purpose corn has is a high carbohydrate load but we don't want that. Despite the lack of true gluten corn still causes more allergies and digestive upset. Corn is still poorly digested compared to all grains and soy. Compared to most grains you'd need around 4 times as much corn to get the same useable nutrients. While low grain content is good if I had to choose between grains I really would choose wheat over corn anyday in any animal feed. Soybeans most definitely. In small amounts they can be a good source of vitamins and minerals and help create a healthy coat. Back when we would have our own feeds mixed at the mill we would purposely request soybean meal added but the mills no longer do small orders like that. The only exception would be for celiac disease but then I'd go grainless before I'd use corn based products. It has no merits.

Here's some menodione info but I cannot find any studies done on live guinea pigs so still can't say it applies to pellets.
Effects of 2-methyl-1,4-naphthoquinone (menadione)...[Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch Pharmacol. 1989] - PubMed Result

(broken link removed)
From what I've read I would say menodione is easily affected by biological processes and hormones or chemicals found in the body. Making it either harmless or potentially dangerous depending what exactly happens to it. Could make it harmless to pigs when digested normally(not injected into part of a heart like the studies). So far I can't find anyone who can claim to know exactly. Menodione is a big question mark on both safety and potential danger. Noone seems to have any solid proof for either side of the argument.

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Why do most cavy foods have menadione?

piggyluvr

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