Veg*n Companion animal foods - philisophical dilema

The difference between most animals and humans is that we're capable of making the choice to live without meat. As a hedgie owner it is your responsibility to give your hedgies their proper diet. They must eat certain things to stay healthy. I see no reason why you shouldn't buy the necessary foods to feed your hedgies, and see many reasons why you should. I don't think anyone would judge you poorly for it either.

If I were you though I would try to stick to fish and insects if at all possible. But I know nothing about hedgie care so I don't know if it is or not.

I often times think about the same dilemma for my carniverous animals.

I agree with PiggieMom. As humans, we can choose what we eat. We don't need to eat meat to be healthy. However, a lot of animals, like hedgehogs, need to meat to live, as you said. They can't decide not to eat meat anymore, and if you chose that for them, they could die. I think, that in order to be a responsible, hedgie mom, you should continue to feed your boys their natural diet in order to let them lead the best lives possible. As for the dog, I've heard about people having vegetarian dogs and cats, but I always wonder if that's truly healthy for them.

Anyways, what I would do is try to buy "organic/free range" animal food for your hedgies and dogs, or stick to fish. I'm sure they've got free range pet food somewhere! That way, you're still giving your animals the nutrients they need, but your trying to be good about the meat issue at the same time. Good luck!

I understand your hestitation about this. I do agree with what everyone has already mentioned. That is your hedgies diet, that is what it takes for them to remain healthy and live a long life, which is your job as their caregiver to provide.

I also would try to find out what your options are as far as getting their food, what they are in fact eatting, and what changes you maybe able to make to have a better conscience about feeding them.

I agree with The Queen about vegetarian dog and cats. I wonder about their health in the long-run. I do believe that both of these animals should be feed a meat source. I am also a vegetarian and have a cat and a dog, both feed a holistique diet with fish as the only meat source.

Are none of the nutritionally complete vegan feline diets commercially available sufficient for hedgies? If not, could you look into supplementing with nutritious animals who you are convinced are not sentient (for example, certain insects might not be but don't ask me)?

I think of this as more a family-ness issue than anything else. I'm not intellectually speciesist. If my cat or cavy's health was at risk, I'd kill a strange human, cat, duck, dog, bear, frog, horse, whoever. This is a rather narrow selfishness based on personal attachment, but it's so strongly wired (like self-defense) that I don't try to talk people out of it. I let myself indulge in it so long as I don't indulge in speciesism. If I were strictly "blind" utilitarian, I'd probably have to murder everyone I know, which would not be a good thing overall -_-

It's impossible to be a purist. I've been thinking about adopting a dog, and I know of no vegan heartworm preventive, but I'd use it for certain months anyway. I use prescriptions for my animals when they are sick, even if that supports the company that developed them by testing on animals. Hell, I don't even really NEED my own prescription, but I take it anyway, and it's in capsules (read: boiled hooves, bones, feathers...). I try to do less harm when that's a selfishly reasonable option. Otherwise, I do what my family and I want, and it really is hard to know how far to go.

As for giving advice, how can it hurt? It won't be saving any lambs or whoever to withhold advice from the HS, would it? Fostering is tougher, but I would try to find a minimally harmful way to help, and I hope you do find a rather harmless way, but this world is messy and many interests conflict all the time. Also, along with rescuing individual animals, maybe be involved in advocating against capturing and breeding--that helps solve both problems.

One book you might really like is Obligate Carnivore: Cats, Dogs & What it Really Means to be Vegan by Jed Gillen. It's not perfect, but it has a lot of ideas that might help think things through. Besides, I found it a fun (and often funny) read ^^

As for vegan cats and dogs, nutritionally complete foods have been done for decades with no deficiencies known so far. Dogs are much easier--you can fairly easily learn how to whip up a balanced veggie meal for a dog at home. Cats are a lot more difficult, and I strongly advise against anyone trying it unless they know tons about feline nutrition and have the resources to get reliable ingredients. With the commercially available products, there's nothing in particular to watch out for--at least, not any more than most regular, non-FLUTD commercial foods, as the normal veg stuff tends to be less acidic and cats can form struvite crystals in their urine after switching unless you monitor pH and adjust the food as needed.

Here's a good site on veg cats and dogs: Home

And here you can learn about real life veg cats and dogs:

dotPhoto - View Album - Vegan Cats & Dogs
(broken link removed)

Thanks for your feedback everyone. I really appreciate the 'outside' opinion. For some reason I hadn't thought of just looking at fish protein-source cat foods so I'll have to start looking for one with the right balance. As for dog foods, I really don't have a problem with my dog going veg. He's already on a half veg, half not diet... there's lots of research which shows that dogs can very happily hav a veg diet. Cats are a bit trickier (being obligate carnivores and all) and I'm not in that situation personally so I haven't done as much research & am not super well-versed in that topic. As for the idea of moving a hedgie over to a veg cat diet I really doubt that would work since it's already so hard as it is to get a semblance of a good diet for them with a cat food mixture anyways.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts again; I really appreciate the encouragement!

I wonder why you think fish products would be morally superior to mammal/bird products. Fishes are often factory farmed as well, they die in very painful ways, and in the end they are all killed by humans. I also don't know if you'll find many quality cat feeds using fishes as the main ingredient, as they can be damaging to feline health (no clue about effect on hedgies, sorry). From a utilitarian standpoint, I'd prefer utilizing larger animals (beef cattle, blue whales if possible); from a painism view, it would be whatever animal could be sacrificed most painlessly (which might involve breeding and slaughtering animals myself).

Anyway, it is a tough situation, and no matter how it turns out, thanks for your hedgehog advocacy as well as your respect for other feeling animals.

From a utilitarian standpoint, I'd prefer utilizing larger animals (beef cattle, blue whales if possible)

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Ok, keeping an animal as a pet is wrong, hunting a dangerously endangered animal is ok?

How does that fit into your "Utilitarian" standpoint?

I can't even imagine how painful being harpooned and forced to die a slow and painful death would be. We nearly hunted these animals to extinction, we certainly could do it within a couple years if hunting blue whales was once again allowed.

As for Hedgie diet, everything I have read in a Google search, seems to indicate that they need a varied diet, no one food is good enough, and most cat foods, even with meat sources in them, will leave a Hedgie with Deficiencies. It sounds like they have not really cracked the Hedgehog diet yet, so it is sort of hit or miss, therefore taking in a variety of different foods is the best bet. These may include, a some brands of catfood, or a good Hedgehog diet, some meal worms(not too many), and a little bit of fruit and veggies.

I can't link any sites here, because they all seem to be somewhat pro breeder...

What I get from it, is that their needs are different then that of a cat, so just because a food is good for cats, does not mean it is going to be ok for Hedgies. Also, being such a landbased animal, with little / no exposure to fish in the past, I would question if they really could safely eat a lot of fish? Let alone hold it as the staple of their diet?

I really feel you gotta do what you gotta do to properly care for the Hegies that are already here. You don't breed them, in now way do you encourage the practice, so, the question comes down to, is it morally right to feed a hedgie meat as opposed to euthing it? Does the Hedgie or the food source have more of a right to live? Honestly, I think that is very much, a personal decision.

C&K said:

As for Hedgie diet, everything I have read in a Google search, seems to indicate that they need a varied diet, no one food is good enough, and most cat foods, even with meat sources in them, will leave a Hedgie with Deficiencies. It sounds like they have not really cracked the Hedgehog diet yet, so it is sort of hit or miss, therefore taking in a variety of different foods is the best bet. These may include, a some brands of catfood, or a good Hedgehog diet, some meal worms(not too many), and a little bit of fruit and veggies.
...
What I get from it, is that their needs are different then that of a cat, so just because a food is good for cats, does not mean it is going to be ok for Hedgies. Also, being such a landbased animal, with little / no exposure to fish in the past, I would question if they really could safely eat a lot of fish? Let alone hold it as the staple of their diet?

I really feel you gotta do what you gotta do to properly care for the Hegies that are already here. You don't breed them, in now way do you encourage the practice, so, the question comes down to, is it morally right to feed a hedgie meat as opposed to euthing it? Does the Hedgie or the food source have more of a right to live? Honestly, I think that is very much, a personal decision.

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(emphasis mine)

I really appreciate what you're saying here, C&K. It basically summarizes my concerns. You're very accurate in saying that hedgie nutrition is a very contentious subject, and one of my biggest problems is that the majority of well-informed advice one can get out there is actually FROM breeders. What's called "hedgehog" food in pet and pet supply stores is, frankly, garbage. It's completely not based on the physiology of the African Pygmy hedgehog, but more a mutation of the diet of a European hedgehog and considered quite harmful. Cat food is also (you're very correct here) not a perfect solution, but with the correct protein, fibre and fat ratios it's considered the closest decent base food currently available. As I mentioned earlier, I can supplement with some fruits and veggies as well as freeze-dried mealies and crickets, but it's more of a "best of many evils" situation.

Your last statement just hits the nail on the head for me. I honestly could never again get a hedgie (much as I love them), with the exception of rescuing/adopting one... and there are few out there looking for adoption... since I really struggle with the question, but in the meantime I'm doing the best I can to give them the happiest, healthiest lives possible... which at this moment means supporting an industry I really don't agree with. <sigh>

I empathise wholeheartedly. We had a hedghog living in and around our back garden a few years ago, and with it coming up to winter time - it was looking too small to survive. The books I got from the library said to feed bread and milk (both I know to be bad! - and ammended the books...ssshhh!)

I checked out the local pet shop, which sold tinned hedgie food - including meat and insects - which I didn't buy. It didn't feel right - but this was a wild hedgehog - not a pet.

Unfortunately that year, there were no fewer than 3 road-kill hedgehogs in my street (a cul-de-sac), so I fear my wee hedgie perished anyway. As an organic gardener, I appreciate the frogs and thrushes, and hedgehogs who help eat the slugs and snails in the garden. I'm not sure how our European hedgehogs differ to your one - but this does appear to make up a fair bit of their diet (including worms, other insects and fruit too) I don't have any answers - just wanted you to know I appreciate the dialema! I think YOUR last line sums things up - you are doing the best you can to give them happy and healthy lives.

Well Weatherlight, you could always get meds in liquid form by passing the animal product capsule. Almost all meds come in liquid form. The ones that don't are not gel caps. It's a bit of a sacrifice since the liquids tend to taste nasty but it's the price to pay for our animal friends.

C&K,

Murdering one animal (regardless of its taxonomic classification) is taking fewer lives than murdering dozens of animals. Is harpooning one animal really so much worse than boiling others alive, hanging them upside down by a leg and slitting their throats, suffocating them to death, killing with rapid decompression, etc?

Lydia,

If you feel that it is ethically superior to take in homeless hedgies and feed them animal products, would you consider putting the resources into raising, fattening, and slaughtering your own hedgie food? I know someone with a snake from before they were vegan, and not wanting to support pet stores, they breed their own gerbils, care for them well, befriend them and play with them, let them live a while, then feed them to the snake. I don't think I'd enjoy doing that, but if it's better than the pet store conditions, it is doing less harm.

Sabriel,

I could also go with tablets, as those usually have fewer by-products. I don't know if demanding purity is the best use of my money, though. Even if it were, I'm not motivated enough (kind of like filtered sugar).

Murdering one animal (regardless of its taxonomic classification) is taking fewer lives than murdering dozens of animals. Is harpooning one animal really so much worse than boiling others alive, hanging them upside down by a leg and slitting their throats, suffocating them to death, killing with rapid decompression, etc?

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It's no better, but either is driving a dangerously endangered animal into extinction. Or is that your plan? To eliminate animals so we can't enslave them?

Weatherlight said:

Lydia,

If you feel that it is ethically superior to take in homeless hedgies and feed them animal products, would you consider putting the resources into raising, fattening, and slaughtering your own hedgie food? I know someone with a snake from before they were vegan, and not wanting to support pet stores, they breed their own gerbils, care for them well, befriend them and play with them, let them live a while, then feed them to the snake. I don't think I'd enjoy doing that, but if it's better than the pet store conditions, it is doing less harm.

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Woah woah woah... let's back it up a little here! I started this post because of the fact that I really don't feel that it's in anyway "superior" to kill any animals! That was the whole point in the first place of my "philisophical dilema". I'm a little taken aback by your accusatory tone here, since I can't see anything in what I've written which could possibly give you this impression, and your analogy of breeding gerbils and feeding them to snakes seems a little left field for me. I fully agree that life is life and that's WHY I'm HAVING a dilema! Do I starve and kill the hedgehogs in my care or those which could need homes? Are you suggesting that I mis-treat them by feeding them food which will make them sick and cause them to die, or that I take them to the vet and say "euthanize my hedgie - I can't morally support the fact that he's a biological insectivore"??? I'm a little confused at the tone of your response and feel it's excessive in this context.

fourbwabbys,

I don't care one way or the other about "species." It's just a category that humans came up with. What I do care about is sentient beings. If one is murdered, that is wrong, whether humans call only two other beings the same species, or two thousand, or two billion. The only time species conservation is important in itself (rather than to protect members of that species) is to create an outcome where less harm is done to other sentient beings affected (by being in the same ecological system), in which case one is using members of the endangered species as tools, useful for their species-specific traits, to help the other animals.

Lydia,

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. I thought you concluded that it's best to continue caring for your hedgies and perhaps taking in more who need homes in the future, and this involves using animal products. You are unhappy about supporting the industries you do now to use those animal products. A partial solution might be to remove yourself from these industries and do it yourself, the best way you can. The animals would still end up bred for food and dead for food, but instead of the suffering they would receive at the hands of the meat industry, they'd have a better existence at your hands.

So what animal rights matter untill it's inconvient for you Weatherlight? How noble.

Human rights also. I'm selfish, not speciesist, and certainly not noble

If you could send me enough money that my family would stay reasonably secure and I could continue to help out some other sentient beings while getting custom meds to avoid a bit of boiled bone (which I'm quite sure my insurance wouldn't cover), I'd be glad to request a different form.

Custom meds? I can't swallow pills and therfore can't use gel caps. So I either get a foul tasting liquid or a normal pill to crush (also foul tasting). Or what I prefer to do most is use herbal remedies when possible. They tend to cause the least side effects for me.

None of these options cost me more. And my Dr.s have never had an issue helping me with that.

Weatherlight said:

Lydia,

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. I thought you concluded that it's best to continue caring for your hedgies and perhaps taking in more who need homes in the future, and this involves using animal products. You are unhappy about supporting the industries you do now to use those animal products. A partial solution might be to remove yourself from these industries and do it yourself, the best way you can. The animals would still end up bred for food and dead for food, but instead of the suffering they would receive at the hands of the meat industry, they'd have a better existence at your hands.

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Okey dokey - Here's the deal; Hedgies = ~400g. Hedgies eat maybe 2 tablespoons of cat food per day (plus veggies, mealies, etc.)... this means that it's really hard to buy a small enough bag of food that it won't go bad by the time we're finished it, as it is. I live in a townhouse and can't raise cattle, sheep, fish or any other animals here... I certainly don't have the facilities to slaughter them even if I did. Your reference to raising and feeding gerbils still perplexes me, because (as I said) I've got hedgehogs.

Not only would a live gerbil scare the crap out of my hedgehogs; they're half the size of a hedgie and they certainly wouldn't become dinner. Barring any of the above issues, I can't kill animals (except earwigs, mosquitos and flies that are trying to eat me... shudder); I even gently capure and release moths, spiders, beetles and other insects in my home. Hence my whole dilema in the first place. Your solutions mentioned really aren't solutions since they're completely non-applicable. The closest I could come to breeding animals for consumption would be with the mealworms, and frankly drying by being freezedried is probably not as unpleasant as being chewed up... and it's not exactly a huge slaughterhouse industry of majorly sentient creatures, I don't get how breeding gerbils to feed to my hedgies would be a more ideal situation. Like I said in my previous post (I feel like i'm repeating myself repeating myself), this is about the lesser of many evils - not about ideal circumstances.

Honestly I feel you are on the right track. If you are concerned you could always try to find cat food made from free range source, or at the very least and organic source. There are some really good high meat organic cat foods like Wellness. Some pet supply stores will even give you a free sample to try out to see if your hedgies like them.

Bottom line is your hedgies need meat to live and cat food is the most complete source that you can physically provide. I think you are doing a great job looking after your hedgies' dietary needs.