So angry

That really sucks BG. The poor cat. I always listen to Bob Barker and spay and neuter all my cats and dogs. If you do end up offering your vet funds, maybe you could only loan it to her? Make her sign a promissory note that she'll pay you back ten dollars a week or something. She should be able to come up with that, right?

Yeah but if something happens to my pigs before it is back then I am screwed. I feel just stuck between a rock and a hard place. She better take that cat to the damn vet.

Don't you wish you could just literally knock some sense into a person. One hit upside their head and then they'll do what they're supposed to. I really hope she takes the cat to a vet too. I wouldn't put yourself out and risk your pigs health though. Things will either work out that the cat will be fine, or it won't and she'll learn a very tough lesson. Maybe if the cat gets worse she'll rush it in to the emergency vet and have to pay more. Don't most vets allow you to set up a payment plan anyway? I find it hard to believe that if she was really concerned about the cat that she wouldn't find some way to get a hold of fifty dollars. I'll keep the cat in my thoughts at least.

OH MY GOD. Now I am really effing pissed. She jsut called and said there was a second kittne that she just found in the litter box-dead. Why why why why why would you not look around the friggin room after you found one dead one. I am so mad I am shaking. Plus she obviously has not gone to the vet yet.

I'm so sorry to hear about the cat. I hate it when stuff like that happens too. I have an emergency fund for taking my pets to the vet, just in case stuff like that happens.

Poor kitty. I hope despite her owners lack of care she turns out alright.

Having the kittens may take several hours. My cats had several litters. Tell your friend to find her cat and put her in a closet with some clean towels. If she can tell her to stay with the cat and pet her. My daughter was mid-wife to my cats giving birth several times before she was 10. The cat always came to get her and to go into her closet to have the kittens.

The cat will give birth, bite the umbilical cord and she should lick the kitten clean. If the cat doest eat the sac but leaves it on the kitten the kitten will die. Take a cloth and wipe the kitten clean if the cat doesn't clean it herself.

Some meowing is normal, woman groan, cats meow. I had one kitten get stuck on the way out. We called the vet and he said, just pull it out. I didn't have the guts to do that and I put the cat in a box and took her to the vet. He pulled the kitten out, it was dead as were the other kittens, he had to do a cesarean and he spayed the cat at the same time.

That's about all you can do if she won't take the cat to the vet. The cat will bleed some after the birth but it shouldn't be excessive. If she doesn't stop bleeding then you need to get her to a vet. But as when a human gives birth light bleeding continues for several days afterwards.

Stay calm!!!! That is most important. But get the cat confined so she won't be dropping babies hither and yon, if she hasn't delivered before she doesn't know what to do yet it is pure instinct. She probably thought she was having a bowel movement and had that kitten in the litter box. The bathroom would be okay, but a small dark place would be best because the kittens eyes although closed will be sensitive to light and it will be easier for the mom to keep an eye on them if they are confined.

Good luck! Nature should run it's course. There may just have been something wrong with the kittens.

BG I can so feel your frustration. I felt it while reading it. I cannot imagine taking chances with the cat and any kittens on not taking her into the vet. In my experience vets will work with you financially. Sometimes they do a credit check too. They were willing to work with me on an emergency situation with my dog, when she almost died as a puppy. AND my credit sucks. My mom ended up helping me with the amount of money they wanted down etc. But in an emergency, where there is a will there is a way. AND I cannot see why she would have one fixed and not both in the first place. Females do go into heat and drive you crazy meowing LOUDLY. If she was pregnant or had a human friend who was pregnant, I bet she would encourage Doctor care. And than having still births on top of that. Hello something is wrong. Whatever is wrong is out of her control and the vet needs to asses the damages. Maybe you could ask her what she would do or think if the shoes were on your feet. You were the one in her shoes, what would she expect you to do?

I so feel your anger and pain. It took something similar happening to my friend (though she took the cat to the vet at the first sign of a problem... already too late though) before she finally went and got all 12 of her indoor cats spayed and neutered (she takes care of some semi-feral outdoor cats too, but they're all fixed already).

I'm guessing the female wasn't fixed because it's so much more expensive to take them to a normal vet. Here in Florida, a vet fix costs $30+ for males and $80+ for females. We're lucky though - there are LOTS of low-cost 'fix n vaccinate' clinics in Florida. When my cat finally was out of heat long enough to get her fixed, it cost me $40 to get her spayed, along with all the important vaccinations and general health checkup. They even threw in some kitten flea stuff and wormer for free when I told them about taking in a stray kitten (helped that she came from a known feral cat community that clinic takes care of).

In my humble opinion, more low-cost clinics, and more public information on them, would help stop all these problems. It's also help if the pet owners took the initiative and did their own research... but that doesn't help if their aren't any available.

The last of my dogs I had spayed and neutered, I took them to a low cost spay neuter clinic. I was a nervous wreck especially since I did not know the vet. After meeting the vet I felt a little better and than I thought to myself, if pets were dying on them everytime they did a spay and neuter they would be out of business. Also being a vet, they really do not want animals to die on them, so I felt more assurred after organizing my thoughts. Also if you research, many places will take donation if you do not have enough. You just have to call around and find them. Like I posted before, if there is a will there is a way.

I'm eagerly awaiting news about the kittens

How is your friend and her cat today? Did any kittens survive? Do you know what her plans are for the kittens after they are weaned? She needs to start making plans now before they are too old and she has to give them away.

I have not talked to her yet today. She is at work right now and i will be at work later. I will update when I hear something.

I would have spayed the cat asap, even if the soonest possible was after pregnancy was apparent.

I know of someone who adopted a dog who developed a chronic medical condition requiring $8000/year in veterinary care. I know of some rescues, even, who will spend thousands out of their own pockets to save ill/injured animals pulled from shelters, not even their own furkids. I'm not that selfless, but my partner and I do put away a few thousand in case something comes up, and I would sell off all my stuff, beg, borrow, live off ramen, or do whatever else I could to make sure my dependents are cared for.

Comparing those angel rescuers to irresponsible murderers like her who won't even spay or take a dying baby mother cat to a vet for $50 makes me ill. Likely if the mom or any kittens make it, they'll be dumped at a shelter with no surrender fee where they are put down or some kind-hearted rescuer pulls them...and perhaps pays thousands out of their own pockets to improve their health.

Or maybe she will sell or "give away" those kittens, some of which will be promptly dumped at shelters, collected for vivisection, put outside to get run over or mauled by strays, used as bait for dogfighters...and some of which will survive and breed their own litters of abused and/or homeless cats.

Taking in a cat without being able to afford quality food, vet care, etc is like having a baby without the means to feed him/her or take him/her to a hospital. Having your cat breed without being able to afford vet care is like raping your young teenage daughter until she is impregnated without helping her through her pregnancy or labor at all. It is horrific.

Well I guess that puts it in the harshest light possible Weatherlight.

There were only two babies, both died before my friend knew the cat had had the kittens. She did take her to the vet and thankfully and her cat is fine. There was no question about her keeping her cat, she care for her cat and it is an unfortunate experience that has made her realize that she needs to do something about spaying her animal. As for the kittens I was personally going to make sure they were adopted out to good homes. I actually had a few prospectives in mind. I guess when I originally posted I was just frustrated and angry with her lack of planning. After she knew the cat was pregnant she should have made arrangements then, not waiting until the last possible minute, which obviously was too late. As for the money issue, things are tight for everyone around here. When she got the cats a couple years ago they were in much better financial shape. Now it is not so much. Again I am more angry because they should have been putting something away in case of emergencies like this. Murderers? Not really. More along the lines of manslaughter due to extremely poor planning. At least now she can learn from her mistakes.

So to update, her cat is okay, has seen the vet, and will be kept under lock and key while the front door is being opened, until she is spayed. That should happen within the next few weeks.

Did you read the other posts in this thread Weathlight? Or did you just gloss over most of the thread where it is extremely clear that the pregnancy was a tragic accident and both of the kittens died? Yes, when BabyGrl started the thread, she was irate with her friend, but there is absolutely no reason to try and equate the cat's owner with a murderer or rapist.

Should she have had a vet fund set up? Without question. Should she have spayed the female either before or at the same time as the male's neuter to avoid this situation? Of course she should have. But, did she breed her cat on purpose? No. It was an accident. Cats run out the door and do things they aren't supposed to, and unfortunately when it happened this time, a cat got pregnant and had two kittens that were stillborn or died shortly after birth.

Perhaps she made the wrong decision and should have gone hungry for a few days to get her cat to the vet. That's certainly your opinion and may even be fact, but there is absolutely no call for your attitude and analogizing a forum member's friend as a murderer and rapist.

Some "accident" (and some "friend"*). You don't deliberately refuse to spay your cat without planning for pregnancy unless you're extremely stupid or know nothing about cats. I can't believe that this person actually expected the cat to have a 0% chance of pregnancy. What's next--she also thought her cat is immune to pyometra and breast cancer? Give me a break. I'm stupid, but not THAT stupid. To answer your question, I read every post, but it was only posted that there were no more than those two babies after I posted.

Manslaughter rather than murder, then. Same thing to the kittens. I'm just glad there were no more still inside her or anything, and at least the poor mom did end up seeing a vet.

If I were well-off two years ago and had a cat then, she would have been spayed (as soon as she was 8 weeks old or about 2 - 3 pounds). If life threw me some bad cards that were beyond my control, I would not then bring a new baby home knowing I couldn't care for her.

*This topic hit a little too close to home for me. My parents-in-laws are irresponsible (although nice and, in some ways, truly good people) drug addicts who neglected both children and cats for a long time. We spent a few thousand dollars on them, buying them food, toilet paper, cat food, cat litter, etc and even took their cat Max to the vet for them and paid for it ourselves several times, because they would blow their welfare money the first day of the month and have nothing for vet bills. They got the worst quality crap kibble from the dollar store, and even would sometimes not budget for that--once we went to sleep early and woke up the next morning to frantic phone calls saying the cat hasn't been fed for a day or so and would we please give them cat food--so that's when we started buying cat food for them. When they wanted a new kitten, they promised to change, to be responsible, to make sure they had the means to care for both cats, etc so we tried to be supportive. Instead of giving them stuff for free, at that point we started lending them money instead (including a $500 emergency surgery for Max) and it totalled about $1800 that they never paid back (and while we were quite well off by most standards, making about $30k/year, we did have ourselves, our own two cats, and the rest of the needy animals in the world to think of). After getting some strong and true advice from a friend, I told my partner for the last time that this enabling has got to stop, we can't keep throwing our money away on them while they throw their money away on drugs secure in the knowledge that he would give them anything they asked. He paid for one last vet trip (the new kitten, Baby, had pulled her shoulder) and then told them that was it, start saving up, we weren't giving them any more money. Of course they didn't listen. Then one day his mom came over with one cardboard carrier, and one old plastic carrier with no door put on its back in a cart (her idea of safe transportation). When my partner, figuring she was just begging for money again, didn't open the door, she opened the cardboard carrier and threw Baby on the walkway outside of our apartment. He realized she was dumping the cats here, opened the door, took Baby inside, and looked in the plastic carrier, which she said Max was in, but it was empty. She left. Figuring Max had jumped out on the way over, he and I walked around the neighborhood around the route she had probably taken, calling for him. Finally we gave up and went to their place, where his dad and sister were watching TV in the living room, and learned that Max had jumped out while still in their apartment and was hiding under the bed. The next day, we surrendered Baby to the only area shelter we found open on Sundays, a large kill shelter. We cut off contact with my partner's family after that. We liked them, we understood they were who they were and hadn't had perfect lives themselves, we knew they needed help, but we just couldn't deal with it any more.

And FYI, I think it's unfairly judgemental for people to look down on rapists and murderers and the like. I think actions are horrible, but people are not, no matter what actions they commit. Murdering a human and knowingly neglecting kittens to death are both terrible actions. People who murder other humans and people who neglect kittens to death are not terrible people, although I certainly hate the harm that their actions cause.

Anyway, I meant no offense to BabyGrl, I just hate cases of animal abuse.

I don't really think she knowingly neglected the kittens to death. The problem was that she did not know. She had called the vet and the vet said that everything sounded normal. Even though I felt she should have taken the cat in after a few hours of what be believed was labor, her vet said that it could take up to two days. So she put the cat in the bathrrom with a nesting box and waited. The cat had the kittens in the middle of the night. Maybe she should have neglected herself and not slept but the reassurance from her vet made her feel comfortable enough to do so. She awoke and dicovered the kittens dead. She tried to rub them in a towel back to life but it did not happen. She certainly should have taken the mother cat directly to the vet that morning but she waited until later.

And she is not stupid. The cat she had growing up was terrified of being outside. Why would she ever assume hers would go out? Thats not how it had been in the past. The other cat has no interest in going outside and niether did this cat. Until the one time she got out. And when she escaped my friend said to me "damn it she is not spayed, if I had thought this would happen I would have done it." You say it is unfair to be judgemental to rapists and murderers yet in the beginning of the post call my friend stupid. So you can be judgemental about someone and call them stupid?

While our society has this huge prejudice against stupidity, I use the word more in frustration than anything. There's nothing wrong with being stupid, really--just if you're too stupid to responsibly care for another being, don't make one dependent on you! How many times had this cat been in heat before? And if she developed pyo, would your friend have said "if I had thought this would happen I would have spayed her" then also? What about mammary or uterine cancer? Why didn't she spay the cat once the cat came back in?

She needs to listen to you more and find a better vet -_- I can't imagine that any truly concerned vet would tell her to just hope for the best for two days before coming in. I also get pissed at the actions of many vets who push declawing, claiming it's a perfectly harmless procedure, vets who demand hospitalization knowing animals at their hospital are not monitored, vets who claim toxic substances are perfectly fine for animals, etc etc. I've also been too trusting with vets in the past; I don't blindly trust any vet any more. I'll look up stuff on my own, look up their license, ask for second or third or fourth opinions if it's something that seems serious and I'm not sure about their recommendations. I know for sure if I were pregnant, I wouldn't just twiddle my thumbs and take the word of a doctor who said nothing was wrong. I'd be making sure the fetus/es was/were healthy all through the pregnancy and get professional help at the first hint that something was wrong (and if I were expecting twins or triplets and the first baby was stillborn that would be a very BIG hint).

I am glad the momma cat got to the vet and she is fine. I am also glad your friend has made the decision to have her spayed. I could understand your frustration in your first post and I am very glad your friend turned herself around.