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Bellebelle
07-02-06, 10:32 pm
I know this probably sounds odd, I'm asking more out of curiousities sake then anything else.

If you were able to get eggs that came from spoilt brat chickens, that live free range but have their own mini chook mansion and don't live with a rooster, in other words the best kept chooks you could find would you eat the eggs?

I just suddenly started wondering that LOl. I'm a vegetarian and i live on a farm (well basically a pile of acreage with moos, chooks and an old labrador) and our chooks have a great life. I've been considering going vegan for a while but that means getting around Mum who believes protein is an essential part of the diet. Eggs are protein and since our eggs come from our chooks, its not supporting the cruelty at all is it? Eggs and cheese are the only animal products i eat now, My whole family drinks soy milk so well yeah.

Thanks
Emma

TipiDancer
07-02-06, 10:38 pm
That is an odd question. But no, I would not. Because that chicken would un-doubtedly be devistated to lose their baby. I'd rather let nature take it's course and let the chick hatch. Like an egg should be used for in this world. Now wouldn't it suck if you just gave birth to a child and someone came up and ate it? That's atleast what goes on in my head.

Percy's Mom
07-02-06, 10:45 pm
Interesting theory Tipi, but that only works if they have a rooster and there is a chance that the eggs were fertilized. If they only have hens, then your analogy doesn't work. It is an animal byproduct though, so if you wanted to be a vegan, you wouldn't eat an egg, no matter how well the hens were treated. Your mother is right, Belle. Protein IS essential to your diet, but there are a lot of vegan options for protein if you do your research.

TipiDancer
07-02-06, 10:48 pm
Thank you PM. I was told that some vegetables have protein in them. Is this true? Other than that I stick with the vegan pups (vegan hotdogs).

Percy's Mom
07-02-06, 10:51 pm
Beans, whole grains, legumes, and soy all have protein. I'm sure some vegetarians will come along with more answers to the "vegetarian protein" question.

Bellebelle
07-02-06, 10:58 pm
Oky doky thanks. So vegans are against eating any type of animal/animal by product not just the cruelty that takes place when they are commercially farmed?

Emma

TipiDancer
07-02-06, 10:58 pm
Yes, thats it. I knew I had it at the top of my head. The magical fruit (even though it isnt a fruit). BEANS!

Percy's Mom
07-02-06, 11:09 pm
That's correct Belle. Vegans don't eat or use any part of any animal. That also means no wool, leather, or feathers.

x.n.d.x
07-02-06, 11:16 pm
Hey, this was just a thought, but can a vegan use a down feather blanket or pillow?
~x.n.d.x

Percy's Mom
07-02-06, 11:19 pm
That would seem pretty evident to me since down is the soft undercoating feathers of a goose or duck, and a vegan wouldn't use anything that comes from an animal. No, I wouldn't imagine that a vegan would use anything with down. If it is an animal, part of an animal, or made by an animal, you will probably NOT see a vegan using it.

x.n.d.x
07-02-06, 11:30 pm
Ok, thanks. I'm not vegan, or planning on going vegan(just vegitarian is fine with me :)) but I used a down blanket at my friends house the other day and was thinking about it.(the whole "would a vegan use it" thing)
~x.n.d.x

Tatalp
07-03-06, 09:37 am
Well, xndx, I don't think a vegan would mind using that, because it doesn't really support the use of animal's feathers for blankets, because you're not buying one of making your friend buy one. Of course, I prefer being "freegan" to being vegan. "Freeganism" is when you don't buy animal products, but if one was being thrown away, you would use it(Like if your friend didn't finish their milkshake, you would finish it).

TipiDancer
07-03-06, 09:39 am
Well, I'm a vegan and I still wouldn't use any down animal byproducts.

Sabriel
07-03-06, 06:15 pm
I'm vegetarian, but I don't feel bad about using things the animal has shed. I have no guilt using fallen feathers in my art and for writing utensils.
I would never pluck a feather, but I figure if they shed it they really don't need it anymore. I've also seen people knit with shed dog and cat hair. I wouldn't mind buying a product that contained shed fur.

I am sure the animals really don't mind if we use things they don't need anymore.

C&K
07-18-06, 11:01 pm
This is an interesting topic. I agree with Sabriel, that if an animal has no use for it anymore, why not?

As for down, generally isn't it collected from the whole chicken industry? I am not so sure the whole vegan thing would ever fit with using down.

I find the thought of using happy chickens eggs interesting. I think Emma, that the thing you need to consider most, is what you and your family are comfortable and happy with. Don't be so conerned with achieving a label.

Sometimes I think that some people take this whole thing too far, it gets to a point where it isn't about not supporting the animal industries, or personal beliefs, but rather, aquiring some sort of moral badge of honour. (Of course, this is not always the case, I am not saying every vegan is like this!)

Most vegans would not consider eating a chickens egg because the whole egg industry is disgusting and filled with cruelty. Even free range is not cruelty free in the commercial market.

If you have happy chickens, with dud eggs, I think by all means you should not feel a whole heck of a lot of guilt. You could tell people that you are vegetarian, and would be vegan, however since you have cruelty free chickens who lay eggs, you do eat those because mom makes you and you know they come from healthy happy chickens! As for cheese, do you have soy cheese available? The whole dairy industry is also pretty nasty. Many more concerns with it then with chicken eggs from a hobby farm for me!

On the other hand, don't overcompensate with eggs, as they can be very high in colestorol and not very good for you. Try to look into other meat alternates, and how you could fit them into your lifestyle. That recipie thread here looks very yummy!

Jordyandkerri
07-20-06, 04:25 pm
Eggs are not healthy, regardless if they come from a factory farm hen or from a country-side belle. No matter the circumstances, natural death or so on, there's no way to justify eating anything from an animal.

Lydia
07-20-06, 05:39 pm
If you have happy chickens, with dud eggs, I think by all means you should not feel a whole heck of a lot of guilt.

I really hope this doesn't come across the wrong way here; I'm not trying to sound off-colour, but as paradigm shift I thought I'd just mention (in general not specifically in response to C&K) that an unfertilized egg of a chicken is really just like an unfertilized egg in a human, in essence. I remember years ago having the sudden realization that I was eating a chicken's period and that just took a lot of the appeal out of the whole thing; free-range and happy or not - it's still a chicken's period. :yuck:

Percy's Mom
07-20-06, 06:03 pm
it's still a chicken's period. :yuck:I cramped up just thinking about that. With that analogy, the poor hen has her period every day.

C&K
07-21-06, 01:41 pm
I remember years ago having the sudden realization that I was eating a chicken's period

I really don't think it is the same. Just a matter of opinion, and I'll just leave it at that.

With a human, we are talking egg the size of a pin head, and a whole lot of yuck!

I actually as a child, had a friend with a nice chicken coup, and I remember being with a hen that was laying eggs. She would lay one, and I reached down and picked it up, (tame chicken!) it was really pretty nice and clean, no mess, nothing.

If you let the possible gross factor get in the way, then you would not eat anything. If you have ever visited a field when they are spraying manure, well, yeah, we are talking a 100 foot spray of crap all over your food... and those are the veggies we eat! Hungry anyone?


I agree eggs are not the best for you, and should be eaten in moderation, but they are not the worst things to eat. Although I am undecided on if I will eat any or not at least until I can have some "happy chickens".

Lydia
07-21-06, 03:32 pm
I really don't think it is the same. Just a matter of opinion, and I'll just leave it at that.

With a human, we are talking egg the size of a pin head, and a whole lot of yuck!... I agree eggs are not the best for you, and should be eaten in moderation, but they are not the worst things to eat. Although I am undecided on if I will eat any or not at least until I can have some "happy chickens".

I wasn't trying for a gross factor on this one and I still eat free-range eggs (which I know still result in the eventual deaths of the chickens anyways and I have my own ongoing internal struggle on the whole thing), so I'm definately not preaching here, but I was really making the similie here just as a theoretical one; a human's unfertilised egg is called her "period" and a chicken's unfertilised egg is a "tasty breakfast food". When you actually get down to it, they're both unfertilised eggs; which if fertilised would become embryos and then baby humans/chickens... that's all.

Obviously there are a lot of practical differences, and I'm not trying to use shock value by any means... just an interesting revelation I had one day! :optimist:

Susan9608
07-21-06, 04:26 pm
Well ... actually, a human being's "period" is not the unfertilized egg. It's the shedding of the lining of the uterus, which was built up in preparation for housing a fertilized egg. Chickens don't have a uterus in which they house their eggs even when their fertilized, so I don't think you can really draw even a theoretical comparions between the 2.

Lydia
07-21-06, 04:48 pm
Well ... actually, a human being's "period" is not the unfertilized egg. It's the shedding of the lining of the uterus, which was built up in preparation for housing a fertilized egg. Chickens don't have a uterus in which they house their eggs even when their fertilized, so I don't think you can really draw even a theoretical comparions between the 2.

But doesn't the unused egg actually get sloughed with the lining of the uterus? That's what I'm trying to say (probably poorly)... it's 'the unused/unfertilised egg leaving the body'...ish. ;)

Weatherlight
07-21-06, 05:49 pm
If you were able to get cotton that was picked by spoiled brat slaves, that live free range but have their own mini slave mansion, would you buy and use the cotton? What if the slaves had a great life? What if the "unnecessary" slaves (perhaps the ones who were runts at birth) had already been "culled" at the breeder's, before the farmer bought the worker slaves?

I'm not into "purity" (which is both silly AND impossible), but I would think long and hard about how these animals came about, why they are here, and how my use of them would affect them and affect how I view them. I don't mind using things of animals, but only if it's truly not affecting the way they are treated.

For example, I've been thinking about adopting a dog. I would prefer a strong, calm, outgoing dog I could train as a service animal, but the dog would primarily be cared for as my dependent, not cared for as a tool. If for some reason I could never have a service dog, I'd like to adopt a dog anyway. If I adopted a dog and the dog did not like being out in public, or did not enjoy training for certain behaviors, etc I'd ditch the idea and let the dog be him/herself. I would also never breed or buy a service dog, no matter how useful to me I thought the dog would be. Our relationship would be one of family, and the dog would be acquired as part of the family as an "animal refugee" and not as a useful tool.

Something similar happens with my cavies. I adopted them mainly because I wanted to help them and provide them a decent home. I am obligated to provide high quality of life for them and be a good mother. They owe me nothing. When Wasabi lets me pet her head, I do enjoy it, but I would love her and take care of her anyway even if she didn't like being petted.

On the other hand, when I was a kid I wanted to buy hens with the primary purpose of eating their eggs, with their own wellbeing being secondary (which should be obvious, as I wanted to buy them, as if they were mere property to change ownership with the trading of dollars and cents). If they were males, or didn't lay eggs for some reason, I wouldn't want them. If the hatcher killed their brothers at birth, I could have hardly cared less. I had no interest in their personalities or the quality of their lives--just so long as they were healthy enough that I felt no guilt. Now that I am vegan, I no longer think that was a harmless desire; I see how my desire for eggs affected my view of the hens and that, in turn, would have affected how I acquired, treated, and "disposed" of them. They would have been slaves, to put it simply. They would not have been appreciated for who they are except secondarily to what they produced for me. They would have been egg machines first.

More recently, I thought I might like to adopt birds someday, not necessarily any particular type, but chickens would be nice. Bird knows that places like Farm Sanctuary are overrun with rescues! I could hardly care less if they laid for me or not--they would be themselves first. To make sure I never viewed them as egg machines, I would likely help them to consume their own eggs (if they didn't on their own already). After all, domestic layer hens were bred to ovulate and lay about every 26 hours, which is extremely taxing on their bodies. If they can recover some of the nutrients from their eggs, and they enjoy the taste, I'd be glad to lend a hand. If for some reason I decided not to do that (although all the chicken rescuers I've heard from say their chickens love eating eggs), I might pass them out to people I knew who would never consider going vegan, so they might buy less commercial eggs and give that much less support to the egg industry. It really would not be my primary reason for caring for the hens, however, and I would value them completely apart from their eggs.

It might seem slipperyslope-ish to think that viewing someone as a useful tool can lead to mistreatment, but it happens in reality. Little rationalizations and justifications crop up when a being can be a little more "useful"...

C&K
07-21-06, 06:44 pm
I wasn't trying for a gross factor on this one and I still eat free-range eggs (which I know still result in the eventual deaths of the chickens anyways and I have my own ongoing internal struggle on the whole thing), so I'm definately not preaching here, but I was really making the similie here just as a theoretical one; a human's unfertilised egg is called her "period" and a chicken's unfertilised egg is a "tasty breakfast food". When you actually get down to it, they're both unfertilised eggs; which if fertilised would become embryos and then baby humans/chickens... that's all.

Obviously there are a lot of practical differences, and I'm not trying to use shock value by any means... just an interesting revelation I had one day! :optimist:

I still maintain that a chicken egg and a humans "period" are not the same thing at all. The only similarity is that an egg is expelled. With a chicken, that egg is the only product, with a human, well, it is the most microscopic part of the whole mess.

This is an interesting artical about The egg industry, both those stuck in houses and "free range".

This is a quote from the artical:
Viva! - Vegetarians International Voice for Animals (http://viva.org.uk/books/ark/ch2.html)



‘I love chickens,’ he insisted, ‘and everything I do here is in the best interests of the birds.’ I was about to have my first lesson in the use of statistics. ‘Free range chickens are much worse off. Not only have they got to be debeaked because they peck each other, but they get more diseases. The whole environment here is carefully worked out to control this. Even the dimmed light is to the benefit of the hens. Listen, I don’t want chickens dying because that’s just money down the drain and there’s a 3 per cent lower mortality amongst battery hens than free range.’
I instinctively knew I was being misled – and so I was. The comparison he was using was that of high density birds which can be crammed 2,000 or 3,000 to a shed but because they have access to a bit of land outside they are termed ‘free range’. Under these circumstances their whole social order breaks down and many hens won’t risk venturing out in case they have to cross another bird’s territory or because of congestion at the exits or entrances. The land outside the shed becomes saturated with droppings and poisoned and it is this which accounts for the increased mortality.


It does not seem to me that free range birds are any better off. However, if you had a group of chickens, and you treated them very well, just like any other pet, and they just happend to lay eggs for you, then I don't see why it would be wrong to eat them. But, that is my opinion.

Lydia
07-25-06, 01:11 pm
The only similarity is that an egg is expelled. With a chicken, that egg is the only product, with a human, well, it is the most microscopic part of the whole mess.

Yep - that's what I'm saying... an egg's expelled. The only time a human egg is expelled is during menses; the only time a chicken egg is expelled is in a shell - obviously not the same circumstances. But they're both the expelling of an unfertilized egg - that's what I was trying to say. Sorry if I didn't come across clearly.

fairysari
07-25-06, 03:01 pm
Okay, maybe this is a little off topic offtopic , but this whole discussion reminds me of an episode of That 70's Show. Mrs. Forman is trying to show Jackie how to bake cookies, and she hands her an egg to crack into a bowl. Jackie refuses to touch the egg because "It came out of a butt!" Okay maybe its actually funnier if you actually see the episode. Well, sorry about the interruption, now back to your regularly scheduled egg talk...