Imagine... A discussion of what if...

If you are interested in people's views, try a search as this particular topic has been discussed so much in the other threads already.

We are not anti-pigs or anti-pets.

It's just not very realistic. It won't happen. In the meantime we'll just try and do the best at what we're doing.

My idea of breeding would be this:
Breeding would be allowed only if there we no more then 3 homeless pets of that species in the shelter. In order to breed, you would have to use many test to make sure the animals are healthy. It would also have to be a breed that wouldn't harm the animal's overall health(I.E. no bulldogs, breathing problems.). The female wouldn't be allowed to be bred until she was fully matured, and no back breedings! This would all be controlled by a liscence. If you bred without a liscense, there would be a heavy fine. People would only be able to buy from the breeder if they had gotten a pet liscense and if there were less then 3 pets of that species in the shelter.

My feeling would be: (and I am mixing species here - not all may apply to every species - yet. So much more medical research into health and genetics for testing for hereditary issues needs to be done in many species. Dogs are at the forefront... Other species are far behind).

*No animal could be bred if there were any known health issues within the past three generations - ideally five.

*Breeders would have to have all breeding animals evaluated for form, function and health and temperament (for example, dogs in other countries have to go through RIGOROUS evals in order to be deemed breeding quality and if they do not... A colleague of mine lives in Denmark and at one point described to me what dogs have to go through in order to be considered breeding quality, puts the US to shame).

*Animals cannot be registered fully with any registry until fully matured and having proof that they have passed various health tests. (For example, in dogs, minimum hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, vWD for all breeds and then whatever DNA testing for helath is avaible for the breed). All testing for the animal must be submitted to a registry (right now at least for dogs, the main collecting body for health and genetics is at will and not mandatory so you can test but not have to submit the results to the database.)

*Breeder must show a working knowledge of color genetics and what can and cannot be safely bred (think double merles - bad - one merle, ok, doubling BAAAAAD).

*Breeder must show a working knowledge of health genetics and what issues are found in their breed or species.

*All breeders must show a knowledge of breeding coefficients (helps determine how closely related animal are - they are very interesting and eye opening to read).

*Any animal sold as a pet must be altered PRIOR to sale. No more altering contracts. I have learned first hand that they get ignored and either an "ooops" or intentional breeding happens. Any animal sold as working/breeding potential (and for dogs, for many breeds not having a job or some sort is a slow, mental death, it is amazing what boredom can do and once that dog gets out and is doing something WOW!!!) has limited provisions but may not be fully registered or bred until testing criteria has been met. The animal may remain intact but has a set time after reaching maturity to be tested. If not, the animal must be altered.

*All breeders must donate a portion of all sales to rescue. I once figured in the dog club I belong to that if each active breeder (which I am not one, all my dogs are altered) donated 1/4 of a single puppy sale from every litter to rescue (approx $250 per litter as average price for a pup of this breed from proven dogs is about $800), that in a year, the club could have raised several thousand for rescue as opposed to the hundred or so they chip over every Christmas to breed rescue. So basically, keep a log and at tax time, that amount must have been donated either in a lump sum or throughout the year and proof from the rescue must be recieved (note, rescues would have to make sure they give reciepts for donations or they could be disciplined - bascially prevent a rescue from falsely punishing a breeder making all requirements)

*All breeders must belong to a local or national organization. All local orgs must be members of national orgs.

*All local and national orgs must have provisions stating that any breeder found selling to a Class A or B dealer will lose privs for life. No breeding, no registering, nothing. If they continue to breed, major fines and even loss of animals.

*Breeders found not adhereing to health and testing requirements prior to breeding will have a warning and suspension until they can prove the animals have been done. If the cannot do this in a set amount of time, they lose privs.

*No internet sales (it is amazing what the internet has done for high volume breeders and millers.) You announce upcoming breedings and such but these internet sales warehouses that many are must stop. It is amazing how many HVBs accpet PayPal, BidPay, etc - they have learned to avoid the broker and the store and have become their own stores.

*Animals cannot be bred more than the minimum recommendation for species. This varies species to species.

*All breeders must submit DNA samples (often done through a cheek swab) for all breeding animals. This will not only be on record to help prive parentage if there is a question but will also be used to screen for whatever hereditary issues in the breed with a report going back to the breeder. Criteria by a genetics committee wil determine (since most genetics are NOT simple dominant/recessive but a combination of many genes and modifiers) what will be allowed for breeding and what will not in regards to genetics.

*All breeders will be required to donate a portion of eash litter sales to health research. It takes money to develop health tests - lots of it! My husband started doing genetic screenings in humans for reproductive endicrine issues, I know first hand the cost and time it takes for these tests. Anyone breeding must support health testing and research. The first lab my husband worked for went under because a grant ran out and the money just was not there for more research. They were doing great work as well...

I could go on!

I am not fully antibreeding - just most of the breeding being done... I have caused stir with some of my writing and lectures to dog folk. I do publish in a wideley read breed magazine. But hey. I have helped change some breeding ideals with a few breeders. Step in the right direction for them.

The problem is, defining a good from bad breeder. Is is a HUGE gray area. What I consider a good breeder, some may not. I actually consider most of the breeders in the club bad - and some of them are highly revered in the breed! OUCH!!! SOme of what I write can be universally applied.

I also try to educate buyers who decide to go breeder as opposed to recommended rescue to read a few things to help them learn what cons some breeders will pull and how to not be duped by flashy pedigrees and titles. I am going back and reworking one article because I want to add more regarding what testing to look for. Old standard for dogs was hips and eyes - but now it is more.

I just wish there were genetics tests for more issues and for more species. Even in crosses, there are issues. Dr George Padgett id's about 102 hereditary issues in the crossbred dog. This is more than can be found in many purebreds!

As a rhetorical scenario, I think it's a valid question.

If (blah blah blah, it wouldn't ever happen, yadda yadda) animal populations were so under control that certain pets began to die off or become unavailable, I don't think *anyone* here would still argue that breeding was bad. It isn't the regeneration of animals themselves that is considered instrinsically evil....the problem is owners throwing away their pets, and animals having to be put down, even as new animals are being bred and sold, in a cycle that never balances out.

And, of course, animals being bred irresponsibly, and in deplorable conditions. And in such a hypothetical situation that we actually NEEDED breeding to begin again, I think anyone here would be all for responsible, restrainted, humane breeding.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, I don't think there would EVER, try as we might, be any way to fully regulate that. Just as their are people all over recklessly birthing HUMAN babies, and then raising their children in abuse and neglect...so there will always be people doing the same with animals, particularly if there is a chance for profit.

stubblychin said:

Ok guys, we all like a discussion so I have an interesting rhetorical question for you.

What if all our dreams came true and pet stores stopped selling Guineas, Breeders stopped breeding Guineas and Shelters started to empty of homeless pigs? Would you gladly be able to live with the fact that you might not be able to own any Pigs? Would you approve of a regulated breeding program?

I ask because everyone is so anti-breeding and I wondered what everyones views would be if we needed to start Breeding to keep Guineas in existence and in our homes?

I would like to point out that despite how it may seem I am anti-breeding in today's world, but I would hate to think that if we got it all under control I wouldn't be able enlighten my life with a pig!

Obviously the scenario of sorting it all out is sadly, unlikely because as long as there are people to buy them, there will be people to sell them. But I thought I'd ask for a bit of escapist fun! :cheerful:

Click to expand...

I am on the same page.
Every one says not to buy from the petstores and not to buy form the breeders. Well those guinea pigs are just like all the other guinea pigs is how I see it and are going to be pets were ever they come from. If you stop buying form one place just because you stop, doesn't mean every one els is going to stop or the breeders are going to stop. Those pigs live just as bad of lives until some one gets them out and "you" can be that some one. If we stop, they keep breeding but those guinea pigs just stay there! The guinea pigs in petshops stay in one shop for so long and go to the next for so long until they get sold. When I bought Finnigin there was a 1-2 year old there that had lived his whole life in that glass tank and they tell you oh they play with them and they have a great life. when really they arnt getting veggies, they arn't feeding them the right food, there is no play time.
I do understand were people stand on the fact were if the breeders stopped breeding there wouldn't be so many guinea pigs out there in shelters and so many homeless. But we all know that the breeders arn't going to stop so why tell every one to stop buy from breeders and petshops because after so long they all end up in shelters and then really you have those breeders pigs.
When someone desides they dont want there pet any more it's to easy to turn it in these days or not take care of it. On the other hand there are alot of good people who clean up after those stupid people and take in those abused pets. we have three in our home.

Toup'e who was in a petshop for 4 months then bought and homed for another 4 months until those ownes saw a guiea pig wasn't for them. They had him living in a pen were his feet curled and his body wieght wet way,way down.

Mahalo who was taken away from her owners with her twin brother because they couldn't take care of her, her brother or her parents.

And Buster Brown who was brought in as a puppy. He was brought in with out any mother dog or father.

I think it all comes down to responsibility. We wouldn't have alot of accidental piggy births if these dumb petstore workers knew the difference between a boar and a sow. They dont care so they dont pay attention which in the end makes even more problems then most would have thought. One little decition can change alot!

-Merrit

Wouldn't it be sort of boring if everything was perfect? There wouldn't be much to talk about, really.